Author Topic: Oxalic Acid Discussion  (Read 46428 times)

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Offline LazyBkpr

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Oxalic Acid Discussion
« on: October 28, 2014, 12:52:28 pm »

   In looking for other information, i am finding again links I have already perused, and would like to put up some links to this information to make it available for all to read..
   Perhaps a treatments section in the forum to make locating the information on treating and medicating hives easier to find?
   Anyhow, Links...

   OAV Research in Central Italy where the use of OAV is common (and approved)
   http://www.apimondia.com/apiacta/articles/2004/enzo_1.pdf


   From the EPA..
http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/4070fact.pdf

  Randy Oliver links;
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-heat-vaporization-and-other-methods-part-2-of-2-parts/
  I refuse to use the liquid treatment and shorten the life of my bees, but will post links;
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-treatment-table/
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/does-oxalic-acid-treatment-of-nucs-affect-honey-production/

   Another recomending liquid and stating that vaporization is too dangerous and that he will not recommend it;
http://www.talkingwithbees.com/beekeeping-how-to-guides/oxalic-acid-beekeeping
   My arguments about the idiocy of such people will be posted below.

   A list of some food that contain OA;
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/oxalic-acid-foods-list.html


   2007 study on the effects of other treatments on honeybees;
http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-08162007-092313/unrestricted/lmburley.pdf

More links;

http://beekeepingnaturally.co.uk/varroa-mite-treatment-using-oxalic-acid-vaporization/#.VE-tIRZ3Nco

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/cor.htm

http://www.moraybeedinosaurs.co.uk/Varroa/oxalic_acid_vapourisation.htm

http://kiwimana.co.nz/kiwi-oxalic-acid-vaporizer-launch/

http://www.geocities.ws/vaporizerklaus/Oxalic_Acid.html

http://academic.research.microsoft.com/Paper/10479474.aspx

http://oxavap.com/product/varrocleaner-oxalic-acid-vaporizer/
http://www.biovet.ch/en/Imkerei/varrox-vaporizer.html
http://www.bedillionhoneyfarm.com/store/1703/32553

  And, the OAV Fogger for commercial applications;
http://beeinformed.org/2014/02/oxalic-acid-fogger-demostration/



    This is not meant to be a one way USE OAV NOW thread. if you find something Negative about OAV PLEASE post it..

   In Using OAV I have to say that i can personally refute many statements about how TERRIBLY DANGEROUS it is to the beekeeper. I have found OAV to be a thousand times safer to use than any other chemical I have used or seen put into a hive to treat mites.
   With over 300 applications at this time, I have NEVER attempted, purposefully or accidentally to breath the fumes, and at this point I have no experience with what happens when you do. I have been told by those who HAVE caught a whif of the fumes, that they close up instantly, ant that it is NOT possible to INHALE the OA vapor. Am I wrong? please tell me!

   Also as I understand it, many sites tell you that the OA is caustic and will blind you and burn your skin BADLY...
   I can absolutely refute this beyond all doubt. I will pick up the OA in my fingers to prove it. I often get it on my fingertips and have suffered NO ill effects. Mix it with syrup or water, and it is much like battery acid, creating a itching burning feeling. I suppose, that IF, you were in a location where you had no means of wiping or washing it off, it MIGHT cause a skin rash.
   I have gotten it in my eye, and it was unpleasant. I rinsed my eye, and within moments I was fine.
   I have gotten it on my bare arm, and felt the itchy burning sensation.. i washed the spot off and the feeling instantly vanished.
   My experience has shown me that the people yelling the loudest are ignorantly crying WOLF, and that with time and experience everyone will start to ignore them.
   So there is NO danger at all?
   i didnt say that. if your skin is sensitive, you may well develop a rash. if your tied to a post and someone sprinkles the OA on you it will start to BURN you after a while. What I am saying, is that it is SAFER than any other chemical i have used, or seen used. It is not absorbed through the skin and will NOT poison you like MOST other chems will. I am not saying to toss out safety and common sense.

  I often say that I am astounded, astonished and totally confused why anyone would use ANYTHING else to treat their bees. WHY would you use chems that might ruin your queen, or that will make your drones steril or less fertile? WHY would you use chems that make the majority of your bees LEAVE the hive and hang out on the front. WHY would you use chems that cause your queen to stop laying for up to a week? When something is available that has no effect on the bees, yet kills mites?

   Thats the beauty of being a beekeeper, you do it your way!

   In another thread one of the folks here said that OAV causes mild brood kill..  In three treatments in August (120 applications) I found no difference in brood between treated and untreated hives, so perhaps the brood kill was because of different circumstances? Different temps?
   It was also stated that OAV causes supersedure of queens..   I can thankfully say that of 47 hives I only had a single supersedure AFTER the treatment, and that single supersedure was of a package queen, from which eight of her package compatriots had already been superseded.. was it because of the OAV?  I doubt it, but have to admit it is possible.

   My greatest success story is with two hives I brought back home from buying out another beekeeper..
   Two hives in double deeps that were in SERIOUS trouble..   DWV was very evident, and in opening drone cells, i found 4 to 6 mites in EVERY cell I opened..
   Within ten minutes of setting those two hives on the stand I had the vaporizor heating up inside the first of the two hives.
   Middle of summer, lots of brood..  A week later I treated them again..  no third treatment was administered.
   Those two hives EXPLODED with bees. BOTH had to be split twice, and they STILL produced more honey than any of my other hives.


   So, my experience has shown that OAV works well, works safely, and is easier on the bees than anything else I have heard of to this point..  I have Hopguard in the back room in case i need it, but I have not needed it. I would try MAQS if necessary..  But so far, the OAV is exceeding my wildest hopes and expectations..
   I have long believed something that Is best explained by Randy Oliver...
   
   The plain truth is that a colony of bees does not differentiate between agricultural pesticides, and beekeeper-applied miticides. What actually affects the colony, is the cumulative load of all toxins that the colony is exposed to, ....

   Randy Oliver, the learning curve part 2


   it is, and has been my uneducated opinion, that using something naturally occurring, that has little to no effect on the bees, and will NOT build up in the wax or combine with other insecticides to make a stronger poison/insecticide can only be a good thing.

   I am VERY MUCH WITH Mrs. River (Riverbee) in her philosophy of dont treat if it is not needed. I feel that OAV gives me that freedom. The freedom to wait and watch, and yet, be ready to FIX a problem in mere moments.
  I believe that the bees will not build, or show resistances if there is nothing to resist. The only way we will know if we are succeeding in creating bees that can co exist with Varroa, is if we WAIT, and force them to fight back..  Those who cannot fight back get treated, and given a different queen, raised from a colony that IS at the very least TRYING to fight back...

   Treating 50 hives takes so LONG!
   Do you really think it takes longer than treating with any other method? Is 2.5 minutes per hive longer than it takes to break down the hive?
    In order to treat with hopguard, i have to open the hives. I have to get to the lower brood box, which, for me means removing the two upper boxes. Then i can place the strips in as the instructions require..  with 50 hives, it will take the better part of the day to do this. A LOT of lifting, and many aggravated bees when i tear their homes open...  Worse, i have to remove most of those strips in a few days or weeks.. opening the hives again.
   With OAV I do not need to open the hives. There is no lifting. With two vaporizors, I can work my way down the line of hives pretty swiftly. With travel to the outyards, It takes me about 5 hours if I do not hurry. If... WHEN I have 100 hives, i expect it will take me a full day to treat using the same method..
   I also expect, that sooner or later someone will produce a vaporizer capable of treating a hive much faster and easier..  Beyond even that, I expect resistant bees to make ALL of this completely useless. As I continue to add resistant genetics, i HOPE to eventually "find" my old vaporizer on the shelf, and not so fondly remember the days when I had to treat my bees....
   
      Feel free to post pros or CONS. I want to hear them! if i can refute them, i will, if I cant, i will look into it further and might just step across to your side of the fence.. 
   In closing...   Please just read the Introduction to The Hive and the Honeybee..  Written in 1911, Over one hundred years ago, and then tell me that beekeepers are different today!

   http://bees.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=bees;cc=bees;idno=5017631;node=5017631%3A3;frm=frameset;view=image;seq=6;page=root;size=s
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Online Jen

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2014, 01:13:58 pm »
Holy Schmoly Guacamole Scott!  :D Let me go get a cup a jo and read this thesis, so I can join on an intellectual level  :)

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Offline Marbees

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2014, 01:33:10 pm »
Efficient and hassle free treatment. Easy on bees and beekeepers.
Never liked using Apivar or formic acid. Varrox is my choice No. 1 for varroa control.
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Offline Yankee11

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2014, 02:12:36 pm »
Wow, nice Lazy.

Now you you just gave me something else to do during winter. (read through this thread)

BTW, I love mine. Just started using it. Amazed at how the bees don't mind at all. Only thing I found was that I have it insert it before it starts vaporizing.
They did seem to attack it if I started it up then slid it in.

I on your side of fence.

I have gotten a wiff, and no way I could inhale it. Don't know about a getting a small enough dose that you can't detect it? I use a long cord. Hook to battery, start timer and walk away for 2.5 minutes.

BTW, since brood count has dropped off now. I'm gonna do a final treatment in next few weeks.

Online Jen

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2014, 04:33:34 pm »
I'm finishing up my 3 winter treatments this week, but I still watch my sticky boards all winter long.
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Offline riverbee

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2014, 09:56:54 pm »
scott, you have done some amazing research and provided links to information on the treatment of mites with OAV, that many new beeks will be looking for info on to help them decide. thank you!

i would just like to clarify something:

"I am VERY MUCH WITH Mrs. River (Riverbee) in her philosophy of dont treat if it is not needed. I feel that OAV gives me that freedom. The freedom to wait and watch, and yet, be ready to FIX a problem in mere moments."

on another thread we were discussing apivar and the use of OAV with honey supers on:
How do you Fellow Beekeepers like Apivar 

in that thread there were comments about OAV, and that it was not approved for use  while honey supers are on in the USA, Canada or Europe.  some beeks have used OAV with honey supers on. 

my comment was, with any miticide, there is residue:  "i just don't think we ought to be treating bees with any chemical/drug while honey supers are on." and "IF i treat, it is when i see the need to."  i want to clarify and say, i do not advocate not treating your bees.  i keep russians and mutts of. these bees are relatively resistant to mites therefore i find it not necessary to treat unless i see a problem.  we all have different situations and genectics of bees we keep which perhaps and does command a different philosophy, but i also think, as i said, any hive treatment for any bee malady ought to be done without supers on. 




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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2014, 10:46:08 pm »
I agree completely, I believe one of the links I posted has information on the amount of INCREASE in Oxalic acid in the hive a specific time after treatment..  Those measurements are done in Parts per million, In some cases no increase is found, and in others VERY little is found..    Honey, has Oxalic acid in it naturally, obtained from the pollen/plants the bees visited, the increase after treatment is less than negligible..
     I am still looking for several links to information I have found in the past. Two of them  were studies done on the use of Oxalic Acid Vapor, one in France and one in Canada... not having much luck but am still looking.
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Offline tecumseh

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2014, 06:39:10 am »
I am impressed with you work here LazyBkpr.   Perhaps you should have been a research academic..... but being a beekeeper is much more fun.

Offline Perry

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2014, 06:49:58 am »
I am impressed with you work here LazyBkpr.   Perhaps you should have been a research academic..... but being a beekeeper is much more fun.

Research Academic? That would be taking the easy way out tec. Now being a beekeeper, that's tough. :)

While I do not disagree with almost everything Scott has posted on this subject, I am bound to not use any material not approved for use here, to do so would set me up for life altering legal problems. Because I sell honey to the public, what I believe has little to do with what I am allowed by law to do legally. There are lots of folks that use homemade remedies in thier hives, and they may or may not neccessarily experience some success using them, but if anyone should ever get sick and it could be traced to some unapproved method being used............................ C:-) :sad:
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2014, 09:13:12 am »
In my searches I have come across situations where beekeepers were fined for those home made remedies.

   I know someone who is a prominent beekeeper who uses just such a remedy with great success.. But I do wonder if the threat he constantly lives under is worth it.
   You can use OAV legally Perry, here, the State Apiarian is more concerned with things that might cause problems, and in a roundabout way says he uses OAV and talks about the evils of using OA wash, so i can only assume he has tried that as well..  If he is ever replaced with a young gungho inspector there will likely be a lot of us upset.  However..  unless they make it illegal to use the wood bleach to polish my frames while they are still in the hive I will keep doing so, until i no longer need that crutch to keep my bees alive.   O:-)
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Offline efmesch

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2014, 02:23:24 pm »
Great summary of the topic Scott.  Very convincing.
Not trying to redirect the discussion, but, do you think that someone with access to an electricity line near his hives could successfully use a transformer (like those used to heat and embed foundation wiring) to provide the current for running the OA vaporiser?

Online Jen

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2014, 02:50:54 pm »
Excellent thread! :t3816:
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Offline kebee

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2014, 06:20:44 pm »
 efmesch I will answer your question about the transformer, yes you can if it puts out 12 volts and at least 4 amperes of power, any less and it would not get hot enough to to heat the oxalic powder.

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Offline efmesch

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2014, 06:36:32 pm »
I'll have to check out the amperage I get on my car battery's charger.  Lately I've been using it for embedding my foundation wires---on the slow setting.  Maybe on the fast charge setting it'll give 4 amps.  If so, I'm well on my way to trying OA.

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2014, 11:36:47 pm »
   Interested to know the output of your charger.. I suspect it may not be enough, but am hoping..  worst case scenario, use a battery you can carry, but keep the charger hooked to it while you do the hives. It will smooth out the voltage, make sure there are enough amps, and keep the battery charged while your treating the hives..  :)
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2014, 09:13:46 am »

   An Interesting method of applying OAV in "bulk" application.. from Beesource.   I did get a kick out of the Hazmat suit, but after seeing the amount of vapor floating about I dont blame him.

     http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?295727-Oxalic-Acid-Vaporising-Bulk-Hives
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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2014, 03:22:50 pm »
I see some pros and cons to this method. Does many hives sooner. Easy to handle. boards at the ends of the hose seals off the entrance.

Then cons: Loosing a lot of oa in the air. I see why he is using a face mask and suit.

For those of you who use OA, what do you think of this method?
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Offline Lburou

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2014, 10:12:43 am »
Another significant research paper, _An Investigation of Techniques for Using Oxalic
Acid to Reduce Varroa Mite Populations in Honey Bee Colonies and Package Bees_, is HERE.  This dissertation provides a good history of the varroa mite, plus all the approved products for mite treatment (as of 2008).  In my view, its a good survey of the varroa issue.  Only one or two changes in approved treatments since the paper was written.  The OA portion of the paper fits in your list Lazy.    I recommend this dissertation to inquiring minds.  :-)

P.S. I read another report quoting a State Apiarist from the East coast who expects imminent EPA approval of OA for use against mites.  Kind of thin on the actual source, but I'll hang my hat on that hook of hope (but Not holding my breath).
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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2014, 07:06:53 pm »
I too use OAV to treat my hives, when I need to treat. I only treat when I see evidence I need too. Perry has a very real & valid point. Therefore I do NOT treat with any supers on the hive. Not that I think it would be a problem because I don't. But because OAV is not approved in my state. Our state apiarist said it not illegal, just not approved. Hoping that will change soon since I want to start selling nucs & queens and I can't if I use OAV.

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2014, 07:18:34 pm »
Sure you can Beeman..  Stop claiming those treatments re for mites.

   Thanks Lee, I will go check that link out!
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