Worldwide Beekeeping

Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: Perry on March 28, 2016, 06:19:23 pm

Title: Over wintering results.
Post by: Perry on March 28, 2016, 06:19:23 pm
Just got done putting patties on all my hives and nucs, so I have a better idea how 2016 is shaping up.
Went into winter with 88 colonies and 6 nucs.
To date, 2 dead-outs, with 4 or 5 having small clusters, maybe 3-4 frames of bees, the rest look good.
3 nucs look great, 3 looking weak, maybe due to drift cause they're all pushed together? As long as the queens survive I can give them a boost later.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: apisbees on March 28, 2016, 06:47:05 pm
That is a way better than average survival rate. Did you go into the 2 to see what happened.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: Perry on March 28, 2016, 07:26:25 pm
Yeh, one obviously had queen failure late in the fall, found lots of hatched out emergency queen cells. Obviously failed to re-queen itself in time. The other one I'm not sure, but I suspect it suffered the same fate but later in the fall/winter. I do not re-queen my hives at all and let nature and the bees decide when they need new queens so it is not surprising that I have a few failures over the winter.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: townson on March 28, 2016, 07:39:39 pm
Have you taken all your wraps off yet perry
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: Perry on March 28, 2016, 07:52:54 pm
Just the 2 dead outs. Too cold yet to remove them from the rest.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: LazyBkpr on March 28, 2016, 08:23:31 pm
Well done!  Thats an impressive feat right there.
   So far I have lost five of ten nucs and five hives. All four of the Old Sol Queens/Hives that I got last spring and built up, and one of the hives that I couldnt get at to winterize I finally managed to get to them. No bees in that particular hive. They must have left not long after my last inspection.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: Chip Euliss on March 28, 2016, 08:42:27 pm
Outstanding!
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: Perry on March 28, 2016, 09:13:06 pm
This will make the 4th year where I have suffered less than 5% winter loss (fingers crossed). I don't treat in spring either, just the fall.

# 1 - I believe I can attribute most of my success to having the ability to "play" with my bees, not having so many that I cannot catch things as they happen rather than dealing with things after they happen.

# 2 - I stopped taking my hives to blueberries (or any pollination gigs) at about the same time as my results started improving. Moving them, and a crappy diet when they're out there, takes its toll.

# 3 - Luck. This may well be my biggest ally. Without it the rest won't matter. ;)
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: Lburou on March 28, 2016, 11:35:40 pm
Perry, Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.  Congratulations!
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: capt44 on March 28, 2016, 11:53:16 pm
I lucked out no dead hives.
The state inspected them 3 weeks ago and no mites or small hive beetles.
I did keep dry feed out and 2-1 syrup in 5 gallon feeders out all winter.
Hive beetles are posing a lot of problems here in Central Arkansas already.
Heard several folks loose there hives to small hive beetles already.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: Slowmodem on March 29, 2016, 01:10:57 am
This will make the 4th year where I have suffered less than 5% winter loss (fingers crossed). I don't treat in spring either, just the fall.

# 1 - I believe I can attribute most of my success to having the ability to "play" with my bees, not having so many that I cannot catch things as they happen rather than dealing with things after they happen.

# 2 - I stopped taking my hives to blueberries (or any pollination gigs) at about the same time as my results started improving. Moving them, and a crappy diet when they're out there, takes its toll.

# 3 - Luck. This may well be my biggest ally. Without it the rest won't matter. ;)

#4 - You're experienced and knowledgeable, and familiar with the local conditions and your bees and their conditions.  You play a big part in your success.  :)
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: vincent on March 29, 2016, 10:58:40 am
Thats awesome news Perry, thanks for the post mortem!
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: Mikey N.C. on March 29, 2016, 07:27:38 pm
Perry,
Sounds like another good year ,do you think the pollination gig hurts the build up in spring?, knowing it's still early there
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: apisbees on March 29, 2016, 08:31:38 pm
With pollination it depends on the crop, what is being grown close by and most importantly how well informed the area farmers are.
Pollination can cause a hive to double in size / population in 3 weeks. Can provide all the nectar and pollen to get the hive through to the main honey flow. It can also seduce the hive to swarm if the colony is not properly managed.
not all crops are equal when it comes to their attractiveness to bees. Fruit trees produce both pollen and nectar and the nectar is higher in sugars and are attractive to the bees. the trees only secret nectar in the early afternoons though. luckily the dandelions secret nectar in the morning so the bees do get a full day of nectar gathering in.
Blueberry and cranberries are not very attractive to bees and colonies can loose ground while in the farm doing the pollination. Hives have starved in the past while being in the fields for pollination. 
The biggest risk in pollination is hive theft, Vandalism, and spray damage. The spray damage is preventable if the farmer works with the guy who is your doing his pollination and is also aware of hives that may be in adjacent farms


Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: Perry on March 29, 2016, 09:51:08 pm
I don't think the pollination hurts in the spring build up, but I think the bees spend a good part of the summer recovering. This just my opinion, I am sure others may disagree. Bees come out of blueberry at the end of June, have July to recover and go into August which is close to a month of dearth. Goldenrod and then Aster are their last kick at the can, usually starting sometime in September.
Pure anecdotal on my part, but there seems to be a bit of a connection.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: CBT on March 29, 2016, 10:08:43 pm
Perry do use a whole pollen patty. Down here if you give a full size patty the hive Beatle will lay eggs in it before the bees can finish it.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: Perry on March 29, 2016, 10:15:10 pm
Perry do use a whole pollen patty. Down here if you give a full size patty the hive Beatle will lay eggs in it before the bees can finish it.

I do, and some even use 2. Some guys will even throw in a patty as they go off to blueberry to help them through the pollination. SHB will probably change a lot of that.
I am still fighting our provincial government, speaking out wherever I can about their decision to allow hives from areas with established SHB into our province for blueberry pollination. I am probably not making too many friends in some fields, but then it isn't their livelihood being threatened so I really don't care.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: Dunkel on March 29, 2016, 11:33:55 pm
Congrats Perry that is awesome.  :occasion14: :eusa_dance: :eusa_clap:
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: apisbees on March 30, 2016, 01:51:28 am
Pollination needs to be examined on a crop by crop basses. The price per hive coincides with the how taxing the pollination will be on the bees. Blueberries and cranberries can be hard on the bees. Apples and cherries are a good spring build up for the bees, but if your bees are in the middle of dandelion fields the bees will have lots of forage anyway. Now if someone wanted me to pollinate 6 acres of raspberries I would move 12 hives in and only charge him $100 transportation fee. The honey you would get and the trimming (between the dandelions and the main honey crops of clover and alfalfa hay fields) money can be made and the bees can be protected while doing pollination, but precautions need to be taken and you need to get informed to the buzzards and risks. get informed and inform the grower as to what is acceptable and expected.
I have never had a problem with doing pollination, The bees have always came out in much better condition then they went in. That being said I have never done Blue or Cran pollination and I don't think I ever will.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: Perry on March 30, 2016, 06:16:01 am
I suppose if a person had tight control over what happened in the fields one might be OK.
The largest grower (and beekeeper) here has developed a pattern where instead of sticking say 2 hives per acre and leaving them there for the duration, has apparently found that by saturating a field with say 6 to 8 hives per acre and moving them every 4 or 5 days to different fields, the over all harvest is better. I suppose if blueberry is your primary business that works for you!
Many other keeps lease their hives to this operation.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: apisbees on March 30, 2016, 09:32:19 am
I can see how that would work, first there have been studies on hive density for blueberries pollination and the increase in yield by having more colonies per acre. It was found economical to use 5 hives per acre.
Blueberries are so unattractive to the bees that after a few days the bees will have found better nectar sources outside the blueberry fields. By moving the hives and forcing the bees to reorient it will start the foraging cycle over again, keeping the bees in the fields rather than foraging further away. Think of placing hives in a field and the way the bees expand out as when you throw a rock in the pond and you see the ripples on the water expand out from that point. The further from the center and the larger in diameter the ring gets, the waves or ripples get smaller till they fade to nothing. By placing more hives (throwing a bigger rock), you create a bigger ripple that will extend out further and last longer.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: Perry on March 30, 2016, 10:02:40 am
Do you think it's good for the bees?

It also makes it next to impossible to get the "stakeholder" to commit to any long term strategy as far as sustainable colony numbers when they can easily skew the numbers "needed" by simply changing the formula to suit their needs.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: apisbees on March 30, 2016, 10:43:56 am
There strategy is going to have to change. As new plantings mature the need of those fields become greater.
Most farmers when it comes to pollination tend to go for the minimum rather than going for the maximum number of colonies. But still want the maximum crop, and blame the bees when it doesn't happen.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: neillsayers on March 30, 2016, 12:20:19 pm
Good job Perry! :)
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: Marion on March 31, 2016, 12:13:59 pm
Perry, I still have the one hive going into my third summer with it. When it was 60 degrees out about a month ago I went into the hive, switched the deeps around so that the bees were on the bottom with honey frames over them. Plenty of honey. My main purpose was to get rid of burr comb that was growing into the bottom board. I wanted to check for varroa mites with a sticky board and could not get it under. It has been cold ever since. I'm thinking I may have a queenless hive also because I did not see a much brood at the time. I did not check it out carefully because I wanted to get things back together so they would not be too cold. Waiting for a nice warm day to go back in and check for queen presence. I thought I would go in today, 60 degrees but a cool wind, maybe tomorrow. Going into the cold again this weekend. I may have to requeen, but we would prefer to let the bees do it. But, if there is no queen then we will have to purchase one.I am not giving any pollen pattys because the bees are bringing in pollen. Just not a lot of bees. We have ordered a nuc for a second hive coming in early May. I like to read your messages because you are north of me so I trust your methods for bee survival.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: Perry on March 31, 2016, 01:25:33 pm
Marion, if you see pollen coming in, the bees are raising something.  :)
Worst case scenario is laying workers, maybe a drone layer, but I have a hunch you are OK.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: Marion on March 31, 2016, 01:47:07 pm
Perry, thank you for your positive comment. I'm hoping too.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: apisbees on March 31, 2016, 02:09:33 pm
At 60 and even with a bit of wind you can do a check start at a side and peel frames from the side when you get to ones with brood don't pull the frame all the way out just spread it and look that the capping's on the brood is flat. This time of year as long as she is laying thats all we need to see.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: LazyBkpr on March 31, 2016, 05:43:55 pm
Give em hades Perry!
   Blueberries can be hard on bees. I have done quite a bit of looking into it since that is where I am headed. I had not heard about swapping locations, but may give that a try. I intend to stay nearby and keep an eye on the bees. If the hives start to get lighter I intend to put patties on and even feed if necessary.
   I am getting ionto it, because we have friends in the blueberry business that are unhappy with the bees they have been getting, and because of the money involved. That does not mean the bees should not be tended or cared for. Any grower that sprays while the bees are "on" should be abandoned immediately. Load up the hives and drive away. I have learned that there are plenty of opportunities for someone with enough hives, that inconsiderate actions need not be tolerated.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: CBT on March 31, 2016, 10:02:40 pm
Good reason to trailer them in. Need to move, no problem, hitch and move.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: apisbees on March 31, 2016, 10:30:22 pm
   Blueberries can be hard on bees. I have done quite a bit of looking into it since that is where I am headed. I had not heard about swapping locations, but may give that a try.
Swapping locations will be even harder on the bees. Better for the grower, but not the bees. It you can not move them 2 miles, bees will be going back to old location. After 4 or 5 days the bees will have found the more desirable nectar sources out side the blue berry parch. moving will keep them foraging closer to the hive at the expense of the bees finding better forage. It's a trade off of whats in the bees or growers best interest. Keep in mind that you are the beekeeper and they are the grower. Bees are your business, look out for them.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: LazyBkpr on April 01, 2016, 01:08:28 am
Good to know, Thank you Apis.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: riverbee on April 20, 2016, 09:30:41 pm
"Perry, I still have the one hive going into my third summer with it. When it was 60 degrees out about a month ago I went into the hive, switched the deeps around so that the bees were on the bottom with honey frames over them. Plenty of honey. My main purpose was to get rid of burr comb that was growing into the bottom board. I wanted to check for varroa mites with a sticky board and could not get it under."

marion, that's great having a hive go into 3 seasons................the burr comb growing into the bottom board, this is what we call 'ladder comb'; sort of a ladder for the bees to go up into frames or one frame below to another above......it's common, and they will just rebuild it.  not sure what the answer is for this when using sticky boards? 
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: neillsayers on April 20, 2016, 10:16:12 pm
Perry,

I have no experience with blueberry pollination though I built a blueberry orchard (3 acres) twenty years ago I ended up selling that is still going strong. Back then we relied on wild pollinators but nowadays there is a need for pollinators with the many growers in the area.
My question is are blueberries poor in nectar or pollen for the bees?
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: apisbees on April 20, 2016, 10:41:40 pm
They do produce nectar but the sugar content is lower than other more desirable plants. The other issue is you need to over saturate an area so there is not enough other forage in the area so the bees are forced to work the blueberries.
Go to this thread and most plants are listed and they state their Pollen/nectar attractiveness as well as the nectar content.
sugar concentration and the quantity of nectar is effected by moisture available to the plant the amount of sunshine and temperature. Some years a modest honey crop can be collected off of the blueberries, In other years the bees will consume food faster than they can bring it in. The problem is you don't know how the year will be until after the damage is done, or the year was successful.
http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php/topic,5344.0.html
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: LazyBkpr on April 20, 2016, 11:04:46 pm
Most research I have done on the Blueberries says I need to supplement the pollen with patties etc while my bees are "on"...    I actually intend to be there the whole time, so my plan is to do inspections and see exactly what is happening, is the hive gaining weight or losing weight, gaining nectar and losing pollen stores or vice versa...   I have high hopes that this will allow me to better prepare the bees, and myself for the following years, and provide a better service to the blueberry fields owners, as well as keep my bees from going downhill....  Big plans... that i am sure others have done before me, just wish I could find their results!
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: apisbees on April 21, 2016, 12:52:29 am
I have heard of both good and bad, depending on the year Moisture before the bloom, sunny and hot during the bloom, the plant produces more sweeter nectar and you can collect a surplus. Dry or cold and wet the nectar can contain 20% less sugars, secret less nectar, coupled with less flight time due to Inclement weather, the bees suffered. I know guys that have quite going cause it is not worth the risk to them. being their to check on them is a good step, it will allow you to add honey supers or syrup whatever is needed.
Title: Re: Over wintering results.
Post by: neillsayers on April 21, 2016, 05:23:42 am
I said it was twenty years ago, but it was actually 30-my, how time flies. I do recall discussion of how the flower shape made pollination difficult and wild pollinators such as mason bees and others could be better suited for the job. I still recall mobs of bees, wild, feral honeybees, even bumblebees all over my field in the spring.