Author Topic: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques  (Read 16361 times)

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Offline blueblood

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Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques
« on: April 09, 2014, 09:46:30 pm »
During my first full inspections of 2014 on April 1st I found one of my single deep overwintered hives to be void of any sign of a queen.  However, there was a four good frames more than 2/3 full of bees.  I checked it again on the 5th and my observation was the same.  I placed a small piece of comb with eggs in the middle of one of the frames.  I checked on the hive today, the 9th.  They hadn't touched the comb with eggs I placed in there on the 5th.  I saw several frames with eggs, some larvae and what appeared to be a few queen cups.  I looked very thoroughly for a queen but with no avail.  One concerning observation caught my eye.  A few cells appeared to have two eggs.  Confusing though, because they were in the center and not on the wall.

So, here is where the real discussion begins.  It could be the work of a laying worker, a new and inexperienced small queen as a result of a late summer swarm or a small queen I can't find that is laying twice because there are not enough bees to keep the eggs warm.  Can she tell if an egg is not viable and then lays another in the cell with it?

And looking to the future for a remedy, I am liking what I read from an article found in the American Bee Journal entitled, "Foolproof Requeening," by Buddy Marterre, MD.  Here is a link that shows the important excerpt: http://marinbees.com/wp/laying-worker

I am leaning toward his idea of combining and then splitting the hive when all is queen right.  This way, I am not wasting bees that I would shake into the yard that won't make it back.  Here are some pics of this hive from the 5th and today.  I am thinking one or two of the cells with a large larvae with pronounced cell edges may be a drone cell on it's way to being capped?  I am interested in what you bee masters may have to say about what you observed.

The 5th of April





Today, the 9th of April























Offline iddee

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Tecniques
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2014, 10:04:03 pm »
Post back in one week and tell us how nice the laying pattern is.
“Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”
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Offline blueblood

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Tecniques
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2014, 10:06:28 pm »
Hi Iddee~ Are you suggesting I wait a week before combining them? 

Offline iddee

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2014, 10:20:54 pm »
I'm suggesting the hive is queenrite and the beekeeper is a worry wart.   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
“Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”
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Offline blueblood

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2014, 10:29:45 pm »
 :laugh: I concede, worry wart I may be.  I will wait and see what happens.  I went back and looked at the photos closer and saw what appeared to be the beginning of a queen cell middle left of frame.

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2014, 11:00:12 pm »
LOL!!!   I started to type, but didnt have the confidence to post it. Iddee did it for me  ;D
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Offline blueblood

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2014, 11:08:57 pm »
LOL!!!   I started to type, but didnt have the confidence to post it. Iddee did it for me  ;D

I am going to start calling him Grandpa Iddee. It's tough love, has been like that since I met him on here.

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2014, 11:38:40 pm »
Reminds me a lot of both my grandfather and my mentor...   take their advice.. or dont and pay the price, just don't go crying to them if you ignored the advice.. if you do they will laugh at you.
   After getting laughed at a time or two you usually learn to listen.   
   

    Afterthought here...   Listening to their advice can also get you into trouble.. so ignore any advice NOT about the subject at hand!!!!!
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Offline tecumseh

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2014, 07:03:56 am »
EXACTLY what Iddee said.

this is the kind of hive that might profit from doing a paper combine with an excluder between simply to pump up the worker population in the weak half <once the population in the two parts of the stack are somewhat equalized you can then set them apart or choose the best queen and unite.


Offline Perry

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2014, 07:04:58 am »
I gonna be the odd man out. I blew up pic no# 3 and I see eggs on cell walls and a couple with more than a single egg. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that this could be laying workers. I'll be happy if I'm wrong.  ;D
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Offline robo

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2014, 08:02:08 am »
It is quite common for a new queen,  or queen starting to lay in a new year,  to lay more than one egg in a cell or to not lay them perfectly centered.  Two eggs in a cell I would not have immediate concern,  give her some time to settle in.   Laying workers will often have 5 or more eggs in multiple cells and most of them on the walls,  that is when I take immediate action.

The best way I have found to deal with laying workers is by using a queen introduction frame,  which keeps the new queen isolated from the workers for 2 weeks.  This gives enough time for her pheromones to either shut down the laying workers (often more than one)  or for the bees to become loyal to her and dispose of the laying workers.

I had started sharing one around at Beemaster for folks with laying worker issues  and it worked really well.
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,38956.0.html
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,23161.0.html
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,17867.0.html


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Offline blueblood

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2014, 08:04:25 am »
this is the kind of hive that might profit from doing a paper combine with an excluder between simply to pump up the worker population in the weak half <once the population in the two parts of the stack are somewhat equalized you can then set them apart or choose the best queen and unite.

Thanks Tec, I like that idea.  It is an additional step from the author's suggestion in the american bee journal excerpt I linked.  It would be easier to split back up with your suggestion.

Offline blueblood

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2014, 08:11:52 am »
It is quite common for a new queen,  or queen starting to lay in a new year,  to lay more than one egg in a cell or to not lay them perfectly centered.  Two eggs in a cell I would not have immediate concern,  give her some time to settle in.   Laying workers will often have 5 or more eggs in multiple cells and most of them on the walls,  that is when I take immediate action.

The best way I have found to deal with laying workers is by using a queen introduction frame,  which keeps the new queen isolated from the workers for 2 weeks.  This gives enough time for her pheromones to either shut down the laying workers (often more than one)  or for the bees to become loyal to her and dispose of the laying workers.

Ah, hmmm.  Thanks for the info rich links.  I did not know those queen intro frames existed.  I learn something new every day.  As for multiple eggs in the cells, I Googled photos of laying worker cells and 4, 5 or so eggs was what I was seeing in the results.  And, I have read about new queens suffering a learning curve for laying. 

This is why I love a properly oiled forum like this one.  Great help at thy fingertips.  It would have taken me years of experience or many books to get a clue on these issues.

Offline Perry

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2014, 08:37:18 am »
Question, is that a single layer of #8 hardware cloth on each side of the frame? Would laying workers be able to "get at" the queen if she was running around in there? I really like this idea.
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Offline blueblood

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2014, 08:42:16 am »
I gonna be the odd man out. I blew up pic no# 3 and I see eggs on cell walls and a couple with more than a single egg. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that this could be laying workers. I'll be happy if I'm wrong.  ;D
 

Hiya Perry, I forgot to reply to your post from earlier.  You may be right.  I hope it's just a new queen.  Problem is, I can't find her.  And, I have searched hard.  She just may be a little and slicker than slick queenie.

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2014, 08:59:13 am »
ROBO  makes those queen introduction cages huh?
   WELL!!!   I guess its TIME!!
   Perry! You bring the duct tape. I'll bring the torture implements..  I will steel them from my wife..  I will also bring my minion to video so no information is overlooked or lost..   We can edit out the parts where he is laughing so hard he is crying, for those weak of heart.
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Offline Slowmodem

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2014, 10:55:36 am »
I got a couple of those queen introduction frames from Brushy Mountain.  I haven't had the occasion to use one yet.  My question is that if a queen is in there for 2 weeks, how do you feed her or will she live that long without food and water?

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Requeening-Frame/productinfo/274/

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/downloads/274_RequeeningFrame.pdf
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Offline robo

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2014, 01:15:32 pm »
Question, is that a single layer of #8 hardware cloth on each side of the frame? Would laying workers be able to "get at" the queen if she was running around in there? I really like this idea.
First of all, I don't think a laying workers would go after the queen.   When you add a 2nd queen to a hive, it is usually the works that ball and kill her.  But that aside,  it is no different than when you place a queen in a queen cage to introduce her to a colony.  This just gives here a bigger area to move around in and spread her pheromones.

My question is that if a queen is in there for 2 weeks, how do you feed her or will she live that long without food and water?
The bees will feed her through the screen.

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Offline Slowmodem

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2014, 03:00:48 pm »
Question, is that a single layer of #8 hardware cloth on each side of the frame? Would laying workers be able to "get at" the queen if she was running around in there? I really like this idea.
First of all, I don't think a laying workers would go after the queen.   When you add a 2nd queen to a hive, it is usually the works that ball and kill her.  But that aside,  it is no different than when you place a queen in a queen cage to introduce her to a colony.  This just gives here a bigger area to move around in and spread her pheromones.

My question is that if a queen is in there for 2 weeks, how do you feed her or will she live that long without food and water?
The bees will feed her through the screen.

OK, I'm confused.  If the queen was loose, they'd ball and kill her, but if she's screened in a cage they'll feed her?
Greg Whitehead
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Offline Perry

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Re: Laying Workers and Re-queening Question and Techniques
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2014, 05:53:31 pm »
"OK, I'm confused.  If the queen was loose, they'd ball and kill her, but if she's screened in a cage they'll feed her?"

In a 2 queen scenario. I thought maybe laying workers would go after her but I guess not. Good to know, I learn something every time I come here.
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