Author Topic: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!  (Read 30431 times)

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Offline Perry

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2014, 10:08:54 pm »
This anywhere near you? See if they deliver to any bakeries in your area.
http://www.flanagan.ca/products/index.php?cursor=300&title=Grocery
337314    DAWN FONDANT WHT SELECT BRILLIANCE    1/50LB
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Offline Marbees

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2014, 06:58:30 am »
close enough, thanks Perry  :)
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2014, 08:17:45 am »
So basically its the starch were trying to stay away from?   I knew that the starch in powdered sugar had its drawbacks for the bees but did not realize Karo had starch in it? Or is it just derived from starch?
   
Corn syrup is a food syrup which is made from the starch of maize and contains varying amounts of maltose and higher oligosaccharides, depending on the grade

   High-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is a fructose-glucose liquid sweetener alternative to sucrose (common table sugar) first introduced to the food and beverage industry in the 1970s. It is not meaningfully different in composition or metabolism from other fructose-glucose sweeteners like sucrose, honey, and fruit juice concentrates.

Honey is 82% sugar and the rest mostly being water. Of the 82% that is sugar, 43% is glucose and 50% is fructose. HFCS roughly contains 55% fructose and 42% glucose. Both then have small amounts of sucrose and other trace ingredients that complete the chemical makeup. This breakdown shows that honey and high fructose corn syrup both have similar chemical structures and are nutritionally the same.

    HFCS-42 = 42% fructose + 58% glucose
    HFCS-55 = 55% fructose + 45% glucose
    Table sugar = 50% fructose and 50% glucose


 HOWEVER;

     To make HFCS, you start with corn, then mill it to produce starch -corn starch.  Starch, the most important carbohydrate in the human diet, consists of long chains of glucose. To make corn syrup, you mix the corn starch with water and then add an enzyme, produced by a bacterium, that breaks the starch down into shorter chains of glucose.

   so.. if KARO AND HFCS are both derived from corn starch, WHY is it OK to feed vast amounts of HFCS and not Karo?
    The answer turns out to be that Karo, while BEING Corn syrup is not a combination of Fructos and Glucos;

   Both products are made from corn starch, but regular corn syrup (Karo) is 100 percent glucose, while high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) has had some of its glucose converted to fructose enzymatically.

   While I do not understand the process of how a bee breaks down sugars, something about the process of converting ALL glucos causes dysentery..   Vanilla will not harm the bees, nor will salt. In fact bees often congregate on my animals salt blocks when they need it.
    It is the singular sugar (Glucose) that causes them the problems..


   I posted this as I found it when looking it up.. Hoping it helps others to understand it the same way I did...
   Scott
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Offline riverbee

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2014, 01:03:26 pm »
scott, the brand Karo light corn syrup does not contain 100 % glucose; from karos faq on igredients and nutrition:

Karo Syrup FAQ

"Q: What is corn syrup?
A:Corn syrup is a mildly sweet, concentrated solution of dextrose and other sugars derived from corn starch. It is naturally sweet. Corn syrup contains between 15% to 20% dextrose (glucose) and a mixture of various other types of sugar."


you are correct, in karo there is no fructose in it, and no sucrose. not sure what these other 'sugars' are.

salt:
common table salt, i do not know about the salt blocks?  perhaps other minerals they are attracted to?

vanilla:
(natural flavoring, pure or extract....if it contains alcohol, it's corn based, and some contain corn syrup, and some contain both. 

".......how a bee breaks down sugars........"

you asked!.................. :D

Honey Bee Nutrition and Supplemental Feeding
AGRICULTURE HANDBOOK NUMBER 335
Revised October 1980
Pages 39 – 45
an excerpt:

"Ingestion and Digestion
Food enters the alimentary canal (fig. 1) by way; of the month and passes through the esophagus to the honey stomach. In the honey stomach hydrolyzing enzymes break down the principal sucrose of nectar to the simpler monosaccharides glucose and fructose present in honey. Immediately behind the honey stomach is the proventricular value or honey stopper. It retains the nectar load in the honey stomach, controls passage of food into the midgut or ventriculus, and prevents food substances in the midgut from returning to the honey stomach.
The midgut is a relatively large segment of the alimentary canal, where food is temporarily stored and most digestion occurs. The inner wall of the midgut is lined with a peritrophicm membrane, presumably to protect the cells from damage by the gut contents.
The alimentary canal is completed by a short small intestine and a large intestine or rectum that comprises the hindgut where food digestion is completed. Undigested food residues are reformed into feces in the rectum and eliminated through the terminal anus. Passage of pollen through the alimentary canal of adult bees requires about 2-1/2 hours. Feces of adult bees contain almost intact, empty pollen grain shells.
The complex foods ingested by bees must be broken down (digested) into simpler units before they pass through (absorbed) the gut wall into the hemolymph (blood) for ultimate assimilation and utilization. Digestion depends on the activity of enzymes. Enzymes are present in the secretions of the salivary, postcerebral, and hypopharyngeal glands and in the secretions of the midgut epithelial cells. In addition, digestion may be facilitated by the micro-organisms present in the alimentary canal. Compound sugars must be broken down by enzymes to simple sugars before they can be absorbed and utilized.
Bees apparently do not have the enzymes or micro-organisms needed to digest the complex carbohydrates (cellulose, hemicellulose, and pectin) in the outer wall of pollen grains. Enzymes gain access to food inside punctured pollen grains and also by dissolving the “soft germinal pore areas” with digestive enzymes. Enzymes that digest protein are abundant in the alimentary canal of the adult bee and are furnished almost entirely by the midgut and hypopharyngeal glands. Proteins are first broken down to peptones and polypeptides; and these, in turn, are hydrolyzed to amino acids.
The lipid-splitting enzyme lipase is abundant in the midgut of adult workers and drones. In higher animals, lipids are digested by lipase or esterases into free fatty acids and glycerol. The fatty acids are made water soluble by neutralization with alkalies in the alimentary canal. Some insects produce enzymes that hydrolyze certain phospholipids (that is, ecithin and spingomyelin), but probably digestion of the esters and fatty acids usually results from the activity of bacteria. Certain lipids may be absorbed unchanged also.
Food absorption begins in the upper portion of the large intestine and is completed in the rectum, where water salts and other organic molecules are selectively absorbed. There are two pairs of rectal glands or pads on the sides of the rectum that function in water and possibly fat absorbtion.
Sources and Chemical Composition of the Natural Foods
Nectar
Nectar is the major source of carbohydrate in the natural diet of honey bees. It may contain 5 to 75 percent soluble solids (sugars) although most nectars are in the 25- to 40-percent range. The primary sugars are sucrose, glucose, and fructose. As nectar is manipulated and finally stored as honey, much of the sucrose is inverted to approximately equal parts of glucose and fructose. A normal-sized honey bee colony may use the nectar equivalent of 300 to 500 pounds a year."


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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2014, 07:36:57 pm »
OK.. so what I need to know is... what "other" types of sugar are there besides Fructos and Glucos?  If Karo already has both sugars in it then I am at a loss to explain why it would be worse for the bees than HFCS
 
 
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Offline Perry

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2014, 08:27:28 pm »
Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to feed or (they) die. I try not to over analyze stuff, it gives me a headache. ;D
"It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor."      
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Offline riverbee

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2014, 09:09:31 pm »
agreed perry!

sucrose....table sugar in syrup and feed/fondant, or HFCS..... :)

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Offline Jen

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2014, 12:45:19 am »


By golly I worked my way thru that science hour. I got some of it, need to read it one more time.

I think Riverbee deserves a free tshirt for all of that! ... At Least  :D
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Offline riverbee

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2014, 10:38:06 am »
......... :D

in simpler terminology (description by Diana Sammataro and Milagra Weiss):

"In order for bees to process and store the carbohydrates (as honey), they first must break down the disaccharides into monosaccharides, because only monosaccharides can pass through the midgut wall into the bee's hemolymph for later use by cells (Crailsheim 1988). Therefore, all the complex sugars bees ingest must be enzymatically transformed in order to become bioavailable to them (Hausmann et al. 2005). Results from sequencing the genome of the honey bee (Honey Bee Genome Sequencing Consortium 2006) have identified genes that encode carbohydrate-metabolizing enzymes. Other researchers have identified proteins from the food and salivary glands related to the metabolism of carbohydrates and energy production (Santos et al. 2005; Fujita et al. 2010). For example, the enzyme invertase converts sucrose into glucose and fructose (White et al. 1963; Simpson et al. 1968; Winston 1987; Kubo et al. 1996; Ohashi et al. 1996, 1997, 1999; Kunieda et al. 2006). Bees not only convert the sugars in the nectar, but add microorganisms and reduce the water content to prevent fermentation. The final product, honey, is stable and normally contains the following proportions: fructose (38.2%), glucose (31.3%), sucrose (1.3%), maltose (7.1%), water (17.2%), other components (3.1%) (White 1980)."

monosaccharides= simple sugar;examples of monosaccharides include glucose (dextrose), fructose (levulose), galactose, xylose and ribose.

scott, on sugars, excerpts from articles i have:

Roy Barker USDA lab~
"Sugars which poison bees when fed at low levels in sucrose syrup include galactose, arabinose, xylose, melibiose, mannose, raffinose, stachyose, and lactose (Barker and Lehner, 1974b; Barker 1976a). Pectin, agar, and many gums are toxic or can hydrolyze to toxic sugars. On the other hand, glucose, fructose, maltose, sucrose, melezitose, and trehalose are safe and nutritious."

Zachary Huang, Michigan State University~
"Adult bees can utilize glucose, fructose, sucrose, trehalose, maltose, and melezitose, but bees are unable to digest rhaminose, xylose, arabinose, galactose, mannose, lactose, raffinose, melibiose or stachyose. Most of these sugars are also toxic to honey bees. About 40% of sugars found in soybeans are toxic to bees, and therefore care should be taken when using soybeans as a pollen substitute. "

okay enough of the science saturday lesson............... :D

someone asked earlier about baking fondant in the oven, i have this recipe for a no cook that was sent to me by another beek, i have never tried it but he says it works great:

NO-COOK SUGAR FONDANT
5 pounds granulated sugar
7.5 ounces water
 
Stir water into sugar thoroughly.  Pack moistened sugar into molds such as a loaf pan, pie pan or cookie sheet and allow to dry, at least overnight.  Remove from the mold and place candy directly on top of frames over winter cluster of bees using a feeding rim, shim or additional super around candy.

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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2014, 11:13:25 am »
   I have not yet received a reply about WHAT other sugars means exactly..  I have a hard time thinking that they are using any sugars derived from something other than starches, IE; potatoe, corn etc..

   Corn syrup is maltose.
   maltobiose or malt sugar, is a disaccharide formed from two units of glucose
   In order to make HFCS one of those units is converted to fructose, so that there is a specific percentage of each..
   If Karo is adding other sugars that contain fructose then what would be the difference between HFCS and Karo corn syrup? A simple matter of percentage of added fructose?  Perhaps this is why they are not answering my EMail as to what exactly those other sugars are, because KARO is NOT corn syrup?

   But that still leaves me with the question.. WHY would corn syrup not be safe for bees?  From Mrs. Rivers Post;

Adult bees can utilize glucose, fructose, sucrose, trehalose, maltose, and melezitose,




   Yes..  I could let it go, but I really want to learn the whys. When someone tells me NOT to use Karo, and all the indications are that it (if it is corn syrup) SHOULD be as acceptable as any other sugar I'd like to understand the reasons..   I just feel it leaves a Hole in my knowledge to take the naysayers at their word, when they cant provide any evidence to support their statements.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 11:16:47 am by LazyBkpr »
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Offline Jen

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2014, 01:10:44 pm »
Scott, I have an Inquiring mind as well, it's how we get to the bottom line. That's what I'm searching for is the best food or supplement that we can give the bees safely.

This thread is crazy good information about feeding bees. Thanks River and Scott for the science aspect of feeding bees  :) ;)
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Offline Jen

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #51 on: November 28, 2014, 12:23:06 am »
Riv or anyone else

NO-COOK SUGAR FONDANT
5 pounds granulated sugar
7.5 ounces water
 
Stir water into sugar thoroughly.  Pack moistened sugar into molds such as a loaf pan, pie pan or cookie sheet and allow to dry, at least overnight.  Remove from the mold and place candy directly on top of frames over winter cluster of bees using a feeding rim, shim or additional super around candy.

    So what's the purpose of the cream of tarter in other recipes?






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Offline kebee

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #52 on: November 28, 2014, 05:58:26 am »
 Riverbee, I love your new avatar.

Ken

Offline brooksbeefarm

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2014, 10:13:32 am »
Kebee, you should move to Fair Grove, Mo., you would love it here, our little town is full of Fat Cats drinking beer. Jack :laugh: :laugh:

Offline riverbee

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #54 on: November 28, 2014, 11:40:47 am »
yep, that's me a fat cat......... :D

"So what's the purpose of the cream of tarter in other recipes?"

jen, fondant for bees really is nothing more than human candy fondant.  beekeepers in the 18th century discovered they could feed bees with it.  really, all the minimal additives are not necessary, and the recipes have remained the same. the cream of tartar just makes the fondant 'smoother'
not as 'grainy', and helps with crystallization and pliability. it's an acidic reaction with the sugar. bees can digest sucrose just fine without the additives.  your fondant might not look as pretty, but the bees don't care.  ;D

ps ken, thanks, just having some fun!
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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #55 on: November 28, 2014, 05:06:51 pm »
Any chemists available? Well then here my thought.
The cream of tartar is an acid, that along with the high heat, breaks down the sucrose into fructose and glucose.

Offline riverbee

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #56 on: November 28, 2014, 07:28:47 pm »
ray, you don't need to be a chemist to figure out what cream of tartar does to fondant, just ask anyone who makes candy, or just google it...... ;)

high heat?  we need to be careful with over boiling any sugar/sucrose to be fed to bees, whether it is fondant or syrup, and syrup does not need any boiling, you WILL make your bees sick.

ray what you are talking about is 'inversion' of the sugar.....adding an acidic element to the sugar, yes, does break sucrose down into fructose and glucose  ie; cream of tartar, lemon juice, or even corn syrup. inversion only prevents crystallization, and helps in the smoothness of the texture of the fondant.....nothing else.
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Offline riverbee

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #57 on: November 28, 2014, 08:12:42 pm »
oops, forgot to mention, inversion of sugar syrup, any additive to fondant.  not necessary.  bees do this all on their own, converting sucrose to fructose and glucose......
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Offline Jen

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #58 on: November 28, 2014, 11:53:42 pm »
Ray- "Bring sugar, water and syrup to a slow boil while stirring until hardball candy consistency is reached  to 255 to 265 degrees. Take the candy off the heat and stir in Mega-bee with a whisk. Pour mixture into a plastic mold and allow to cool. I use an inch and half spacer under my top cover. Take candy out of plastic mold and put candy on top of cluster. If you want to make the candy stronger use more megabee add one extra pound. I buy a 40lb bag. You can buy 5lb bag if you want.

7 lb sugar 1 lb water 1 lb mega-bee 1 teaspoon honey-b- healthy 1 teaspoon amino-b booster

   Ray  :)  How many 12-9 individual fondants does this make?

   




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Ray

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Re: FONDANT RECIPES ~ Share your recipe here!
« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2014, 06:15:41 pm »
Googled and googled and......

per Wikipedia
Honey's natural sugars are dehydrated, which prevents fermentation, with added enzymes to modify and transform their chemical composition and pH. Invertases and digestive acids hydrolyze sucrose to give the monosaccharides glucose and fructose.

Invertase is an enzyme that catalyzes the hydrolysis (breakdown) of sucrose (table sugar).

Hydrolysis (/haɪˈdrɒlɨsɪs/; from Greek hydro-, meaning "water", and lysis, meaning "separation") usually means the cleavage of chemical bonds by the addition of water. Where a carbohydrate is broken into its component sugar molecules by hydrolysis (e.g. sucrose being broken down into glucose and fructose), this is termed saccharification. Generally, hydrolysis or saccharification is a step in the degradation of a substance.

Inverted or invert sugar syrup is a mixture of glucose and fructose; it is obtained by splitting sucrose into these two components. Compared with its precursor, sucrose, inverted sugar is sweeter and its products tend to retain moisture and are less prone to crystallization.

Physical chemistry[edit] (fondant)
Poured fondant is formed by supersaturating water with sucrose. More than twice as much sugar will dissolve in water at the boiling point as will at room temperature. After the sucrose is dissolved, if the solution is left to cool undisturbed, the sugar will remain dissolved in a supersaturated solution until nucleation occurs. While the solution is supersaturated, if a seed crystal (undissolved sucrose) falls into the mix, or if the solution is agitated, the dissolved sucrose crystallizes to form large, crunchy crystals (which is how rock candy is made). However, if the solution is allowed to cool undisturbed, and then stirred vigorously, it forms many tiny crystals, resulting in a smooth textured fondant.

http://www.compoundchem.com/2014/10/21/chemistryofcandy/
By contrast, in the case of non-crystalline candies, such as lollipops and toffee, we actively want to prevent crystal formation. This can be accomplished in a number of ways. Chemically, ‘interfering agents’ can be added to the sugar solution in order to prevent crystallisation – common additions include other sugars such as glucose and fructose, which, having molecules of a different size and shape, get in the way of the sucrose molecules and stop crystals forming. Other chemicals, particularly acids, can be added to break up the sucrose into glucose and fructose, which also prevents crystallisation.

http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Biological_Chemistry/Carbohydrates/Disaccharides/Sucrose
Invert Sugar
When sucrose is hydrolyzed it forms a 1:1 mixture of glucose and fructose. This mixture is the main ingredient in honey. It is called invert sugar because the angle of the specific rotation of the plain polarized light changes from a positive to a negative value due to the presence of the optical isomers of the mixture of glucose and fructose sugars.

Read more: http://chestofbooks.com/food/science/Experimental-Cookery/Effect-Of-Acid-Upon-Sugars-And-Hydrolysis-Of-Sugars.html#.VHz0HZRdUrM#ixzz3Kgrcjs9v
Effect Of Acid Upon Sugars And Hydrolysis Of Sugars
Strong concentrated acids decompose all the sugars producing humus or caramel substances. The weak acids, malic and citric in fruits, lactic in sour milk, acetic acid, and salts with an acid reaction like cream of tartar, affect, the sugars in different degrees, depending on the particular acid used, the strength of the acid, whether it is heated, and the length of time of heating.

And this is why I was hoping for a Chemist  O:-)