Author Topic: Roundup and honey bees  (Read 12890 times)

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Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2015, 10:26:32 pm »
Many poisons don't stimulate the immune system and Roundup is one that has been demonstrated to suppress the immune system.  It also causes numerous other problems with nontarget wildlife, including insects.  The biggest problem here (ND), from a pollinator perspective, is the widespread use of roundup on gmo crops and systemic insecticides.  Prior to gmo, most of the value to pollinators in midwest agricultural fields came from "weeds" like clover, milkweed, etc. that grew along field borders, edges of wetlands, etc.  There have been many studies that have documented similar impacts on other wildlife species.  As we strive for improved agricultural efficiency, it comes at a cost but we often can't quantify those costs till years later.  The same is true for many of the crops here in North Dakota that use systemic insecticides to control insect pests.  I used to love to haul my bees to sunflowers this time of year but now I pick them up and move them if I have a sunflower field within 2 miles of my bee yards.  Have a friend who hauled 300+ hives to sunflowers 3-4 years ago.  He made a heck of a honey crop but he lost nearly all of those hives.  I helped him treat about 1,000 colonies that fall with formic acid for mites and the difference between the hives from sunflowers and those from grassland/forb mix sites was striking.  He took all his bees to east Texas that fall where there's lots of great pollen but those hives still didn't make it.  That friend is a queen breeder and he does select hygienic queens from hives that sit in ag settings all summer and do very well so there is certainly a genetic basis and rationale.  Problem is that as soon as one pesticide looses it's efficacy, we come up with a new one.  It's the same rat race we've had with mosquitoes since we found out we could spray chemicals to control them.  I still remember my dad out in the street in Hickory, NC when the DDT trucks came through fogging for mosquitoes; he didn't bother to come inside because folks were led to believe it was a safe chemical.  He got real sick and we took him to the hospital--the doc said not to worry--symptoms would go away since it was only DDT!  A long time ago, folks like Ray Dasmann recommended a friendlier and more balanced approach that created habitat along field margins for predatory insects that controlled crop pests; Ray wasn't the first to make that recommendation.  Today's production ag is so intense in many areas (especially here) that small areas that once provided habitat for desirable predators (and pollinators) are mostly gone and the future doesn't look too promising.  How we balance functioning ecosystems with production ag will be a major challange.  I hear we now want to create a corridor for Monarch butterflies but I can't see how that could effectively be implemented in our contemporary landscape.  If it can, I'm all for it but I am skeptical.  Most of my honey crop volume this year (and it's a good high-volume crop) came from sweet clover in the drawdown zone of a couple of reservoirs and some wetlands.  We've had so many spring floods in previous years that the plants that germinate the previous summer get flooded the following spring (sweet clover is a biennial).  This year, the conditions were great and I predict we'll see a record crop from the upper midwest.  Not much clover makes it in field margins here anymore because most of our crops are roundup ready gmo crops.  I started keeping bees here 15 years ago and the average yield was usually at 160lbs/hive.  It's less than half that now in an average year--this year will be an exception.

Before I retired, I focused my work on quantifying (and predicting) the costs of land-use and practice shifts to better inform policy decisions.  Sustainability is an explicit goal of farm policy but we have a long way to go to provide the necessary guidance.

I'll get off my soapbox now.  Leave for vacation in the morning!!
Chip
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Offline apisbees

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2015, 11:20:28 pm »
Chip Have a great vacation and happy anniversary to you and the misses.
Honey Judge, Beekeeping Display Coordinator, Armstrong Fair and Rodeo.
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Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2015, 10:57:43 am »
Chip Have a great vacation and happy anniversary to you and the misses.

Thanks Apis.  We're leaving here soon for the airport with my bride of 40 years :)
Chip

Offline riverbee

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2015, 01:03:37 pm »
"poison is ....poison, period! Use it at OUR peril.
A necessary evil? Possibly! Accepting the status quo is NOT an option.
Weed free fields? Where does Mother Nature's children feed?
Is the Honey Bee the Canary in the mine, or is it the Monarch Butterfly?
I'm off the soap box now. IMO don't use any poisons."


ray, where does mother nature's children feed in fields/cropland or backyards that provide nothing to sustain them?  where is the benefit?  it is up to us to provide the landscape/habitat that benefits/nourishes all living species, and in the circle is the plants, bugs, crustaceans, fish in our river's and streams, all birds and wildlife, and all insects.  glyphosate herbicide such as Roundup, may be a necessary evil, but it is a 'tool' and without the proper/managed use of it to restore or provide plantings where once nothing grew, or clean up 'junk' weeds/grasses to provide that diverse landscape, then one is wasting intensive labor and money.  if anyone thinks just by throwing wildflower seeds down is going to get the job done, it won't.  there is a flip side to the 'poison' and the necessary evil to get you the means to a  good end.

our land and the river on it has been abused by over 100 years of poor farming practices, and we are smack dab in the middle of nothing but corn and soybean fields.  at one time some of the land near the river was leased to a local gravel company that stripped the river of sand, rock and gravel and also removed the top soil from an area in a nearby meadow.  all that grows in that section is nothing but some type of sparse brown grassy junk and there is not one bug to be found in that soil.  this is the 5th area we have begun restoration on in about 6 years now. we took back one corn field from a lease farmer, and a large section from another, and two other areas where we wanted to restore natural and native plantings. those 4 areas took about 3 years to produce all types of native/pollinator friendly plants/grasses that bloom from spring to fall.

restoration or planting for pollinators is not easy in larger fields or tracts of land.  it is labor intensive, requires expensive equipment/or equipment you rent or hire out,  and the seed is not cheap. soil samples were taken, and we have worked with a company to provide us with seed mixes to match the soil and landscape they are planted in.  those 4 areas are now finally providing colorful  mature plants/grasses that are full of insects, butterflies, nibbling critters and birds, and most of all, my honey bees.  it started with site preparation and the use of of a glyphosate herbicide to rid the ground of whatever junk was growing there to give the new seeds a chance to grow and mature. sounds corny but 'if you build it, they will come', but do it right from the get go, if you don't, and without roundup in the initial preparation, it won't happen and one might as well take whatever money invested, open a trash can and throw it in. 

the company we have worked with, i can't say enough about them. prairie restoration is all they do.  we could have hired them to do all the work and management but was rather expensive, so we took it on ourselves.   they are out of northfield, minnesota:

Praire Restorations Inc.

also, i have attached a simple pdf file on the Guidelines for Establishing a Prairie and what it involves.

i don't disagree that some folks misuse and overuse herbicides.  folks want perfect yards, lawns and gardens, etc..  the herbicide for us, was a necessary tool in the arsenal, and a beneficial end to justify the means;  a colorful diverse landscape that attracts, provides and sustains 'mother natures children'.
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Offline hamptor

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2015, 02:50:44 pm »
Wow Riverbee, that's a really impressive project and the kind of thing we need more of. 
I saw a story on the CBS evening news this past Sunday where Steve Hartmann (I think that's the reporter) had worked with Prairie Restorations to restore a meadow on this property in New York State.  It was filled with coneflowers, blackeyed susans, and lots of other beauties.  But he had to control the weeds before the meadow got established.
I know we'll continue using Roundup but will probably limit its application to early morning or late evening.
This has been a really interesting conversation to me.  Thanks so all who contributed!

Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2015, 07:18:23 pm »
There's no doubt that Roundup and other chemicals cause problems in our contemporary ecosystems.  I used Roundup and a few nastier herbicides when I restored the 160 acres we live on 18 years ago.  It was necessary and I wouldn't have the native grasses or forbs we enjoy now (or bees too!) if I didn't use them because the land had been farmed for many years and the seed bank of things I didn't want to grow was too large.  In restorations, chemicals can give you the initial advantage needed to shift the system to favor the species you target with restoration.  In my case, all I have to do now is mow problem spots at the right time and/or do a controlled burn at the right time.  I have kept the balance I want and its a great piece of prairie.  The secret to successful restoration anywhere is to get a community established that is a good fit (ecologically) for the area being restored; otherwise, you will always be fighting the drivers responsible for ecological function at your site.  I've seen restorations at wildlife refuges over the years that were poor fits for the area and they were great big flops!  My big problem with Roundup is it's widespread and increasing use in production agriculture and the associated impacts on nontarget organisms.  There are tools for everything but not all tools are the same.
Chip

Offline riverbee

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2015, 10:28:12 am »
thanks hamptor.  steve hartman used a company in westfield, wisconsin, Prairie Nursery, and all they do is consult and sell seed mixes.  also, hartman is doing it the hard way! (i found the cbs clip and watched it).  not sure he's really following recommended guidelines.......

we have no weeding, just maintenance as chip stated.
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Offline Springtide

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2015, 11:19:31 am »
Not just bees: in March 2015, the W.H.O. upgraded glyphosate from possibly carcinogenic to probably carcinogenic to humans. :sad:

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2015, 06:26:36 pm »
Dont see it...  Been using it for 40 years. It gets sprayed every spring. My bees have done fine. we have flowers and goldenrod in all roadside ditches and in the fencerows and draws. Bumble bees, Monarch butterflies etc, etc  all in great profusion..  To be honest, if Roundup is hurting GOOD, if we have ANY MORE bugs or critters than we have now we will be in serious trouble.   The ecosystem is better here now than it has been in 60 years. As stated, eagles, deer, birds rabbits etc, etc, are beginning to over run the place..  I have eagles slamming into my chicken wire and had to tie ribbons on it...   The grand total this year... 4 fox, 12 coons, 7 deer, 4 turkeys, 1 weasel, 5 coyote, 1 bobcat, Uncountable number of rabbits, and 4 golf balls have vanished from the hen house.....
   If roundup is as horrible and terrifying as I have read, you cant tell by living in the middle of the ares its used in.  My bees dont seem convinced either..
   If I start having issues I can always jump up and down and yell ROUNDUP!
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Offline riverbee

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2015, 11:02:38 am »
" 4 golf balls have vanished from the hen house....."

golf balls?...........
wouldn't want to be the critter that ate those...... :D :D :D

(sorry hamptor for the 'hijack', couldn't help it)

like scott, i am not totally on the 'roundup' bandwagon......... :)  not saying that folks don't misuse or overuse it, cuz they do.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2015, 07:02:51 pm »
not saying that folks don't misuse or overuse it, cuz they do.


   I agree.
   Golf balls fool the bigger snakes and they dont come back.. it saves my eggs for ME.  Plus if I have a broody hen she will happily set on a golf ball after I run off with the eggs.
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Offline riverbee

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2015, 08:29:19 pm »
lol, figured as much or some method to your madness scott!!!............ :D
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Offline iddee

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2015, 08:42:48 pm »
That's right. Kill off the black snakes and the copperheads they would have eaten will be waiting for you when you step in the barn one night.

Personally, I would prefer to feed them an egg or chick now and then, to repay them for doing away with the copperheads and rattlers.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2015, 12:49:49 am »
If they just took one now and then, and THEN left, I'd be content.. unfortunately after a good meal of egg, they like to curl up in the nest box and wait for my wife to reach in...   The door was blown off the hinges and the nesting boxes half torn off the wall....
   Thankfully the copperheads stay down toward the river, but we do get a timber rattler now and then..
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Offline iddee

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2015, 05:47:49 am »
 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

The copperheads stay down by the river ??  They are not water snakes. In fact, down south, they are nicknamed Highland Moccasin. You only see them down by the river because they get eaten by the black and king snakes when they get near the barn.
Same as the rats and mice.
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Offline lazy shooter

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2015, 07:45:04 am »
My family kills poisonous snakes close to the house.  We do not kill snakes that are away from the house.  In my opinion, let the snakes work it out with nature.  I haven't killed a rattlesnake at the ranch in three or four years.  The last on I killed was on the front porch.

It is standard business practice for our local farmers to use roundup and pre emergents.  The local hay farmers also spray to keep grasshoppers at bay.  I'm not a farmer, and I don't know if roundup is good or bad, but I suspect it is a bit of both.  What I do know is that farmers are now changing their operations to use less chemicals.  It will be a slow process, but there are less chemicals each year. 

American farmers of the future will use less chemicals and much less irrigation water.  Those folks that can adapt to dry land farming and using native insect predators will be rewarded.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2015, 08:49:51 am »
   Kings, Racers, Gopher, fox, and milk snakes are quite abundant nearby. Cottonmouth, Copperheads, Massasauga, and the timber Rattlesnake are less common but they are here...  I see cottonmouth in the pond once in a while and take no chances, it goes away quick... Massasauga and the timber rattlers both have rattles and dont bother me much, I usually leave them alone if I see them and they move on. I have never found them in my hen house... I assume your talking about a racer or rat snake when you say black snake?  Its the rat snakes that like to eat the eggs...



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Offline iddee

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2015, 09:51:43 am »
That's unusual. You are the only one to ever find a cottonmouth in Iowa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agkistrodon_piscivorus

Maybe this is what you are finding.

http://srelherp.uga.edu/snakes/nersip.htm

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Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2015, 09:13:41 pm »
I agree Iddee, probably one of many species of watersnakes.  There are many species and many have the looks and a nasty temperament people associate with cottonmouths.  Used to see them in coastal North Carolina where my wife's from and in southern Louisiana where we fish each summer.

Funny thing about snakes is that most people don't like them but they do a great service as many have stated in this thread.  There was a study years ago that looked at the proportion of rattlesnakes that rattle versus those that don't.  We mostly see the rattlesnakes after they rattle but not all individual rattlesnakes rattle--it's a a genetic thing.  The study was around Tuscon, AZ and they looked at the proportion of snakes that rattled verses those that did not as a function of distance from town.  The findings were that, the farther you got from town the greater the proportion of snakes that rattled increased significantly.  Why?  Because, people killed ones that rattled.  Increased survival of the of the "quiet"ones shifted the population to favor quiet snakes!  Makes sense but something that most folks wouldn't think about with a shovel in their hands!
Chip

Offline lazy shooter

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Re: Roundup and honey bees
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2015, 08:38:42 am »
@Chip:

I haven't read your article about rattlesnakes that don't rattle.  (If it doesn't rattle, is it a rattlesnake? :):))  That being said, there was an article in the Abilene News about rattlesnakes not rattling because the one's that rattle get eaten by feral pigs.  We now have lots of large feral pigs roaming our land, and the larger ones seem to be immune to snake bites.  I suppose their thick skin and fat on the frontal parts of a pig make it difficult for a snake to penetrate their fangs into the snakes body.

It does seem that we have less snakes in recent years.  Our ticks are now gone because the fire ants have eaten them.  Our ecology is drastically changing.