Author Topic: Warning! Dumb question coming!  (Read 17283 times)

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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Warning! Dumb question coming!
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2014, 04:50:26 pm »
Indeed Crofter!!!!!!!!!   WHY does treatment free work in one location, and when attempted using identical methods/bees in another, it fails miserably?
   How do bees survive year after year in the wild, and when moved to a hive they die within two to three years?
   Is it the beekeeper, the methods? The bees? Diluted Genetics? The mites? The environment? All of the above?
   I know how to keep them alive, so setting aside a different yard to experiment in, where I can afford to take more risks has me just about BOUNCING off the walls. 
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Offline Jen

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Re: Warning! Dumb question coming!
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2014, 10:48:04 pm »
Patience Grasshoppah! The answer will come ~
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Offline Jen

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Re: Warning! Dumb question coming!
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2014, 10:48:35 pm »
Are feral bees aggressive?
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Warning! Dumb question coming!
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2014, 11:08:00 pm »
Most are no more aggressive than commercial bees.  I hit two hives of black bees last spring that would give Africanized bees a run for their money, but normally they are pretty fair to deal with.
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Offline Jen

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Re: Warning! Dumb question coming!
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2014, 11:23:57 pm »
I posted this pic and others like it of this strange black butt bee. I think you were curious as well. Never did get a chime in. This is the closest I've seen of a feral, I think, bee



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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Warning! Dumb question coming!
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2014, 12:10:02 am »
The bees I ran into looked more like this;


   I was told thats just an OLD bee, but I am here to tell you all the bees in the hive looked like that, and the queen was drop dead gorgeous, all black, JET black with yellow highlights where her legs and wings joined her body..  The bees had no stripes, no yellow or gray..   They had a fatal encounter, and I hope I never meet any more like them!
   
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Offline Jen

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Re: Warning! Dumb question coming!
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2014, 01:03:06 am »
WaaaauuuW! I am on the edge of my chair.....  Amazingly dreadful looking bee, makes sense that the queen would be a Lena Horne cross. Would love to have seen this queen ~
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Offline tbonekel

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Re: Warning! Dumb question coming!
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2014, 07:13:43 am »
Some of the bees I have have black butts, but they are not too aggressive. A little smaller than commercial, but that's about it.

Offline tecumseh

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Re: Warning! Dumb question coming!
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2014, 07:19:46 am »
tbone writes...
'All this to say that I will certainly not preach against treatment or non-treatment.'

tecumseh...
I would suggest that folks not throw out either option and be ready to implement either or both.

a crofter snip...
How do the feral bees that survive differ from the ones that don't

tecumseh...
there are some differences 1) since they were in some form or fashion first created from a swarm this is mother nature grade A certification that they have also been successful and healthy 2) generally they must build their own comb < downside here is that any pollutants in the area will also be in the bees the wax and the honey 3) they have no offensive intrusion from beekeepers.

at this point in time I suspect the largest difference between the two is the decades long contamination of wax by beekeepers in their struggle against varroa.

a lazybkr snip...
WHY does treatment free work in one location, and when attempted using identical methods/bees in another, it fails miserably?

tecumseh...
I suspect most folks if they would read about THE GENETIC SOLUTION to american foul brood decades and decades ago would come to the same conclusion that I did not so long after (perhaps a decade ago) when I began investigating varroa and alternative approaches to varroa control.  looking back on the history of ANY program to build genetic resistance to american foul brood the first thing people often overlook is the LARGE NUMBER of hive that you will have to let die in order to get to even an approximate solution to the problem.  I would suggest that anyone who informed you that they were developing a bee resistant to varroa and had less than 1000 hives was either fooling you or themselves or both.  It does take a lot of guts and a lot of bees to go down that path < hats off to my good neighbor for taking on this challenge.

and then their is INITIAL CONDITION thingee..... which is how I by accident arrived in the no treatment camp... that is to say by luck of the draw <and again ain't it great to have GOOD neighbors?  this does suggest that if you begin with bees that have been highly treated suddenly deciding to not treat these will mean you are setting up these bee to collapse and die.  if you wish to go treamentless I would FIRST suggest you begin with no treatment stock.  this does not mean some of your bees will still not die from time to time... but at least you are not adding anything to the problem to contaminate the comb or make the varroa a nastier bug than it already is.

Offline Jen

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Re: Warning! Dumb question coming!
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2014, 12:31:26 pm »
tecumseh~ I never overlook ANY of your posts. You are a great contributor to this forum!


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Offline Riverrat

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Re: Warning! Dumb question coming!
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2014, 12:51:04 pm »
Back when the Varroa hit it just about wiped out all the feral bees. This is one reason it is very rare to see the old German black bees. Most bees today are descendents from swarms of beekeepers that was treating bees for mites. Treatment was something that had to be done back when the mite appeared. It was either treat or loose the hive. Now  that the mite has been here for over 20 years the bees are adapting and  learn to deal with mites on there own. They will most likely thrive without treatment when hived.  What I have found if you buy a package or a nuc from another keep who is treating his bees. You better be prepared to continue treating the hive as they do not deal with mites as well as bees that are not use to treatments
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Offline Jen

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Re: Warning! Dumb question coming!
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2014, 02:53:04 pm »
And around and around we go, where we stop nobody knows ~

My hive came from a hive at least 6 years old that had never been treated, 15 miles away from our house. They were healthy, wealthy and wise. Three years into it they were found with mites, along with bees with deformed wing virus.

Shrug ~ I dunno
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Offline Crofter

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Re: Warning! Dumb question coming!
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2014, 03:19:59 pm »
Taken the other way around, if you buy bees that are from a treatment free environment and bring them into your apiary, would one round of oxalic vaporization for instance, on all hives, change the "treatment free" bees so they would need to always treated thereafter? Is resistance to mites (or not being resistant) hereditary, or is it learned behavior?
Frank

Offline Riverrat

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Re: Warning! Dumb question coming!
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2014, 03:44:58 pm »
Taken the other way around, if you buy bees that are from a treatment free environment and bring them into your apiary, would one round of oxalic vaporization for instance, on all hives, change the "treatment free" bees so they would need to always treated thereafter? Is resistance to mites (or not being resistant) hereditary, or is it learned behavior?

Good question! I don't know of anyone that bought treatment free bees and started treating. I would like to hear some of the answers to this one.
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Offline Crofter

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Re: Warning! Dumb question coming!
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2014, 04:01:34 pm »


"Good question! I don't know of anyone that bought treatment free bees and started treating. I would like to hear some of the answers to this one."


I am thinking of the hypothetical situation of bringing in a hive or two of different genetics into a yard where the mite load is generally too high to get ready for winter. I have treated all my hives at the end of summer even though some were not high count, just to leave no sanctuary to mites that will be drifting hive to hive.
Frank

Offline tecumseh

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Re: Warning! Dumb question coming!
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2014, 09:05:12 pm »
a snip....
Is resistance to mites (or not being resistant) hereditary, or is it learned behavior?

tecumseh...
don't really know the answer to that question but with out a doubt a large part of a bees behavior is hereditary.  this does not (at least it seems to me) rule out the possibilities that some behavior is not reinforced by learning.

we pretty much know the not so simple genetic combination required to obtain hygienic behavior in bees to foul brood disease and one might suspect any resistance to varroa would be even a more complex genetic model than that.