Author Topic: Suspected european foul brood  (Read 353 times)

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Offline tedh

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Suspected european foul brood
« on: June 13, 2022, 03:16:57 pm »
Hi Everyone,
I have a hive with suspected EFB, suspected only because i haven't tested to confirm, but yeah, the signs point to EFB. The laws were changed in 2017(i believe). I just spoke to our veterinarian about getting some terramycin and was told she would have to come out and inspect my hive before she could prescribe anything. She can get here at the begining of the month or so.  I really don't want to get into bashing the regs or my vet. Im just a little flummoxed. Maybe i should move/segregate that hive?  But if this is serious enough that the hive needs to go maybe the hive should really go? Permanently? All i need is a little terramycin and to pitch infected frames and maybe requeen, but if its going to be weeks? As i said, i don't want to rail against the machine, i just dont know what to do.  Ted
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Offline Zweefer

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Re: Suspected european foul brood
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2022, 08:15:28 pm »
Sorry to hear that Ted. I have no advice, other than to possibly separate that hive for now…
Keep us posted, and good luck!
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Suspected european foul brood
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2022, 08:31:30 pm »
I've never dealt with EFB, thankfully, but do you apply it as a powder?  I don't think it's Rx only for all animals yet.  I know they sell it over the counter as a cream for pets, and you might be able to find it in powdered form, especially in generic, at a farm or feed store since it's used for eye problems in livestock.  The non-brand name for the chemical is oxytetracycline hydrochloride.  Perhaps you'd rather not just go out on your own behind your vet's back like that, but if it can save them, it might be worth it to you.  I agree that at least separating them from the other hives would be a good idea.  I think you can buy EFB test kits from big bee suppliers, at least you used to be able to.  Maybe if you had a positive test to show your vet, she'd write the prescription without coming out.  Just a thought.  It's a tough situation for sure.   

Also, just out of curiosity, who is this vet that sees bees?  Is she a bee inspector, like with your state?   
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Offline tedh

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Re: Suspected european foul brood
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2022, 10:45:32 pm »
Yes 15th, its a powder. I experienced efb a handful of years back. I went to the local vet, told him what I wanted and why and he sold me a small amount. I have some left so I....  Anyway, I offered to bring in a suspected frame that could be examined/tested but that seemed to not be a good idea. Also asked about a test but that was right before I understood that my inquiry was going to go nowhere. Oh, and I too am interested in her beekeeping experience. This may come off harsher than I'd like, I'm really not angry, im more stupified.  I believe my next step will be to remove any suspect frames reducing the space, treat with the old stuff and consider moving them.  Having an out yard is a pain unless you carry lots of stuff.  Ted
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Suspected european foul brood
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2022, 11:23:40 pm »
Yes 15th, its a powder. I experienced efb a handful of years back. I went to the local vet, told him what I wanted and why and he sold me a small amount. I have some left so I....  Anyway, I offered to bring in a suspected frame that could be examined/tested but that seemed to not be a good idea. Also asked about a test but that was right before I understood that my inquiry was going to go nowhere. Oh, and I too am interested in her beekeeping experience. This may come off harsher than I'd like, I'm really not angry, im more stupified.  I believe my next step will be to remove any suspect frames reducing the space, treat with the old stuff and consider moving them.  Having an out yard is a pain unless you carry lots of stuff.  Ted
Oh, I see.  It's shame when vets are difficult.  We are really lucky to have an amazing pet vet and farm vet.  My sister hears all kinds of stories on her goat forum about unhelpful vets, since many are not trained to care for goats.  I'd imagine even less are trained to care for bees.  ???  If I was you I'd do exactly as you say, treat with what you have, remove any bad frames, and move them if possible.  Perhaps feeding them wouldn't be a bad idea too.  That would keep them from having the stress of foraging, and perhaps help keep them at home to avoid spreading it around.   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Jen

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Re: Suspected european foul brood
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2022, 12:32:09 am »
Pictures or mini vids would help Ted. May I ask what are the clues that make you feel european foul brood?

Within my first 3 years of beekeeping, before this forum, I purchased two hives and found that they were sold to me with AFB. AFB and EFB are different. I could stick a toothpick into the dried up dark cells and draw out long black snot. Gross!
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Offline PappyRick

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Re: Suspected european foul brood
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2022, 08:32:58 am »
Hey Ted.
I have had EFB in my hives in Illinois.  Our regional State Apiary Inspector ran some tests a few years ago, and one hive (of 2) came back positive and the other was negative.  She suggested treating with Oxytetracycline.  Currently, her advice (and that of Illinois) is to sprinkle 2 Tablespoons of the powder in a circle around the brood of each deep (if you're running two deeps). This treatment is repeated two additional times with 4 - 5 days between treatments.  It is a requirement to wait 45 days after the last treatment before adding supers. As a matter of fact, her recommendation last Fall was to treat for EFB in the Fall and Spring of each year for about 5 years.  This is difficult in the Spring because of the 45 day wait.  Her recommendation is apparently a state-wide effort to get a better grip on EFB.

I get Tetra B from Dadant, which is Oxytetracycline, but a prescription from a vet is required.  I think it is currently sold in 10 pound bags, which is enought to treat a ton of hives.  I only have 6, so I have enough to treat for a while.  I keep it in my basement refrigerator.  In my case, my vet, who also treats my dogs, simply wrote a prescription and faxed it to Dadant to authorize the sale of the Tetra B. He charged me a $6 prescription fee, and helped with the coordination with Dadant.  I'm sure Dr. Mike has no interest in coming out to my bee-yard.  While not understanding your vet's "need" to visit the hive (and she may have valid reasons), I would suggest finding a more bee-friendly vet.

My current plan is to treat for mites in the Fall, along with EFB.  This past year, I had 6 hives, and treated in the Fall.  I did not treat in the Spring, but all 6 hives over-wintered and came out like gangbusters this Spring.
PappyRick
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Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Suspected european foul brood
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2022, 11:02:47 am »
PappyRick has made a good suggestion.  Call around and see if there is another vet that can respond quicker.  It is my understanding that some vets will consider pictures in lieu of an actual onsite visit.  A call or email to local and state bee organizations might get you the name of a vet that can help you.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Suspected european foul brood
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2022, 11:45:01 am »
PappyRick has made a good suggestion.  Call around and see if there is another vet that can respond quicker.  It is my understanding that some vets will consider pictures in lieu of an actual onsite visit.  A call or email to local and state bee organizations might get you the name of a vet that can help you.
I agree.  We just switched pet vets recently, and we are so glad we did.  While it can be awkward to break off a relationship like that, it's vital in your caring for your animals to have a vet you have a good working relationship with, who you trust and who will trust you.  It wouldn't hurt to at least put out some feelers to other practices and see if they'd be easier to work with. 
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Suspected european foul brood
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2022, 04:33:35 pm »
Yeah it is going around apparently...    Knitro trhe bee dog, has Lime disease...  They put him on a crash course of anitbiotics for 30 days... no changes... different antibiotics...   still has it....  they gave me some pain pills for when it hits again, and told me to let them know when he has a flare up...
   Okay... crap...   so I am leaving for texas, and taking my friend Knitro with me.. so I asked for antibiotics to take in case he has a flare up....
   They outright refused...  so I asked what am I supposed to do? She acted like I was an idiot...   give him the pain pills I gave you??   I actually got in her face and asked hwo the &^%$ that was going to fix the flare up?  I walked out, called the OLD vet I used to deal with 30 minutes away... drove an hour round trip and picked up the antibiotics from him.....       Two days later I got a call from the new vet here in town wanting to say they were sorry they couldnt help me etc...    I told them where to go and that my business was no longer theirs so delete my number.  Its obvious you care about money more than my dog.
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Offline RAST

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Re: Suspected european foul brood
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2022, 08:15:25 am »
Finding a vet to take new patients here has gotten as hard as finding a primary care doctor due to the influx of "new residents".

Offline tedh

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Re: Suspected european foul brood
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2022, 03:25:04 pm »
First off, thank you Everyone for the responces it's much appreciated.

Jen, as you can see from the shirt pic my picture taking, and I'm assuming videoing, isn't the greatest so no. No pics. The symptoms I'm seeing is spotty brood pattern, brown dead small larva, larva that looks twisted and some that has a melted look. Its not a pic but the best I can do now.

I moved the suspect frames to the burn pile. It doesn't seem as bad as I first thought. I only had 2 frames i was sure of and 1 that looked suspicious. I'll treat again in three days.  Im still looking for a tetracycline connection. After talking to a few vet offices (not the vets, just their helpers) I'm begining to think the regulations were changed without telling the vets. Currently waiting for a couple call backs. Ted
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Offline Jen

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Re: Suspected european foul brood
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2022, 04:00:08 pm »
Hi back Ted :) I did a quick search just for my own education. European foul brood sure doesn't look like American foul brood. I had AFB many years ago with the goopy snot in the cells. I collect that both EFB and AFB have a defined odor.

On the flip side, I think you are doing all you can  :yes: And I do know for certain that every year the bees teach me something new.
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Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Suspected european foul brood
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2022, 09:57:12 am »
Tedh, burn pile?  Don't let your other bee colonies rob those frames.  Since you are in Iowa, you might try calling Jim Raders at Dadant to see if he knows of any vets.  He is in Sioux City.  Just a thought.  Your description does sound close to AFB. 

Offline tedh

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Re: Suspected european foul brood
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2022, 01:50:24 pm »
Sorry bakersdozen, the frames weren't there long as they were burning.  I should have been more precise.  Ted
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Offline tedh

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Re: Suspected european foul brood
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2022, 04:26:22 pm »
Just a quick update: the hive in question was treated 3 times (per directions) with the tetramycin i had on hand.  It seems to have worked as it is packed with brood in all stages. Fingers crossed.  Ted
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