Splitting One Large Hive Into Three

[Jen]

I'm mentoring a new beekeeper in our club. He's doing so well and both of his hives made it thru the winter. This is soo much fun!

One of his hives is just burgeoning with bees. 2 deeps 10 frame, 1 med on top which was the honey super but is now filled with brood.

The two deeps have 18 frames with brood. We are thinking of splitting both of those deeps into 3 hives.

Question:

We will make the first split with the queen, and set it aside.

Then, make a second split making sure that there are plenty of eggs available.

He has a new location a couple of miles away to set these two new splits for a couple of days or so. We are wondering... can we place these two new splits near each other on the new location? Will the bees that don't have a queen yet drift over to the split that has the queen?

 

[Bakersdozen]

Jen, google the Doolittle Method of making nucs.  I will write more about this later after work.  Hopefully some one will chime in today.  I'm off to work!

[riverbee]

"The two deeps have 18 frames with brood. We are thinking of splitting both of those deeps into 3 hives.........Then, make a second split making sure that there are plenty of eggs available."


question jen, 3 or 2? i think you meant 2?

i am not a fan of walkaway divides, why not consider waiting for swarm cells to develop and utilize swarm cells, rather than eggs?  your chances at developing a better queen is greater. also, i would not set these two together.

[Jen]

River, Okay won't set them together. And, I don't remember what a walk away split is. I'll see if I can find a youtube on that.

1) I was thinking that if we take two splits from the hive... that would then be 3 hives. But you are prob thinking that it would be 1 hive and 2 splits?

2) Re: queen cells:
And, let's see.. thinking.. He wants to avoid swarming, so then we would wait for queen cells. Pull a nuc with original queen, set aside. Pull another nuc making sure it has queen cells. Then leave the original hive with queen cells as well.....??

3) Is a three way split the same as a walk away split?

Baker, I will look up Doolittle Method, Thanks!

[LazyBkpr]

Walk away splits take up too much valuable time while a new queen is made from scratch, raised, bred and finally starts to lay. So yeah, like Mrs. RIver said, wait for swarm cells or buy new queens for those two new splits and you (HE) will be better off!

   Having the new queens will have those two new hives up and running almost as fast as the split with the queen still in it. They will build up faster with less risk of losing them due to a queen being eaten by a bird, getting hit by a car, being lost in bad weather or even going back to the wrong hive, etc, etc... Lots of risks for new queens.
   YES! It is possible to split them, make sure the queenless splits have eggs and larvae and walk away and let them raise their own queens. That was how I was taught to do splits 40 years ago...  But those splits are going to steadily dwindle while they wait for their new queen to emerge and be mated, and if ANYTHING happens to the queen they chose, it is game over for that split.
   Scott

[riverbee]

"River, Okay won't set them together. And, I don't remember what a walk away split is. I'll see if I can find a youtube on that.

1) I was thinking that if we take two splits from the hive... that would then be 3 hives. But you are prob thinking that it would be 1 hive and 2 splits?

2) Re: queen cells:
And, let's see.. thinking.. He wants to avoid swarming, so then we would wait for queen cells. Pull a nuc with original queen, set aside. Pull another nuc making sure it has queen cells. Then leave the original hive with queen cells as well.....??

3) Is a three way split the same as a walk away split?"

jen, not setting them together is just my personal way of what i do with divides, for many reasons. a walk away is basically dividing a hive in half, leaving the queen in one box and leaving the other box with eggs to develop a queen and like scott said, a long time for a queen to be born, mated and figure out if she's viable. a lot of babysitting for these. they will dwindle considerably. many other variables about walkaways that are not very practical.

i misunderstood you, so now i understand what you are saying. any divide you do and let the bees figure the queen rearing out is a walkaway; typically walkaway's are when beeks take a strong hive and divide it in half but leave one box with eggs to rear a queen. you want to accomplish this with an additional box.  i would be hesitant at dividing a strong hive into three. two would be more practical, unless he has some specific goal in mind.  if it were a three deep hive busting at the seams, no problem. 

"He wants to avoid swarming, so then we would wait for queen cells. Pull a nuc with original queen, set aside. Pull another nuc making sure it has queen cells. Then leave the original hive with queen cells as well.....??"

jen, by completing divides and removing frames with queen cells is a great way to avoid any swarming, this fools the bees into thinking they swarmed.
i have had great success with utilizing swarm cells in divides/nucs. not so good luck with walkaway's.

EDIT AND ADD:
walkaways, your chances with walkaways.....if queen rearing fails/and or the queen is a dud, you stand a great chance to lose the bees as well. population dwindles way down and even if there are bees that remain, it may be hard to combine them.

[Jen]

This is great you guys! Thanks so much. I haven't done a 3 way split before.

He and I have been working on a plan. First thing he did was see if there are any queens for sale in the area. There won't be any until May.

So he's contemplating waiting until there are swarm cells developing. I think that is the best idea at this point. There are plenty of cups but no queen cells yet.
 
Last week when he went thru the hive he found (instead of 18) 9 frames of good brood, so a large hatching happened since the prior inspection. So I think he can bring down to just one split, into 2 deeps.

We are doing a full inspection tomorrow looking for any cups with eggs. If we find that it's a simple split in a week or so.

Thanks so much you guys 

[riverbee]

jen, a good plan! swarm cells!.....

queens are hard to come by in spring, that's why i utilize swarm cells in the spring when i divide. bees at their best in queen rearing (swarm season).........

no cups, wait for the swarm cells.  be sure when you remove the frames not to ding the cells or damage them.

wish you and the friend you are helping out the best, and keep us posted!

[Bakersdozen]

OK Jen, I re-read your original post.  I misunderstood and thought your friend was wanting to place the split in the same apiary as the original colony.
For those wondering about the Doolittle method of making a nuc, I will briefly explain.
The Doolittle Method of making a nuc:
You will need a queen excluder, nuc box or 10 frame box, inner cover, and outer cover.  Also a piece of plywood or adapter board.
1. Find the frames you want to place in the nuc.  A frame of honey,  a frame of larvae, a frame of capped brood, and a 5th frame of more brood or mixed eggs, larvae, and brood.  Put these frames in a 10 frame box or 5 frame.  5 frame nuc boxes will require extra steps.
2. Brush all the bees off these frames.  Take care not to injure the queen should she be on one of those frames. Replace those missing frames in the original colony with foundation.  Push any brood together so the existing colony can continue being able to care for the brood.
3.  Place the queen excluder on top of the parent colony.  On top of the queen excluder place the box of brood frames without any bees.   Put inner and outer lids on.

The nurse bees will move up to cover and care for the eggs, larvae and brood.  The next day:
4. Remove the nuc box with all the bees.  Place this on top of it's own bottom board with an inner and outer lid.
5. Remove the queen excluder and replace the inner and outer lid on the parent colony.
6.Introduce a new queen to the nuc.

If you are using a 5 frame box to make your nuc, you will need to place a piece of plywood over the 5 frames that will be exposed or an adapter board.

[Sour Kraut]

I'd let them build queen cells, then if there are 18 frames of brood, split it into at least four, maybe six, each with 4-5 (split into 4) or three frames of brood (split into six) and a couple of queen cells for the ones with no queen.

It sounds like a very prolific queen, take advantage to raise at least 3 daughters from her.

Just my $ 0,02, YMMV.