Author Topic: 2nd go around at grafting.  (Read 13242 times)

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Offline Papakeith

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2014, 08:01:13 am »
I just had my first experience grafting.  8 cells  5 of which appear to have been accepted so ~60% We did not prime the cells at all. They got only what came along with the larvae.
I'm starting to think that the bees are keeping me...

Offline efmesch

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2014, 09:59:12 am »
Pops,  it looks like you are on the right track.  With more experience you should only get better.  The first time is the hardest, getting the guts to try it, to go through the whole process and suffering through the period of uncertainty till you see results.    The second time is easier and after that it becomes a breeze.
Before you know it, you'll be thinking of possibly raising queens for sale.  :) :)

Offline Papakeith

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2014, 01:32:21 pm »
Kind words, thank you.

Our beekeeping association decided to send a few members to a three day class to learn how to graft.  One of those students taught me this weekend.

It was amazing seeing how much Royal jelly the nurse bees made overnight.  If they accepted the graft they almost filled the cup  with it.  Plus, in that same 24 hour period they built up quite a bit of wax on each accepted cup.
I'm starting to think that the bees are keeping me...

Offline apisbees

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2014, 02:23:52 pm »
This is part of the beauty of grafting because the young larva are selected by you. So you know the larva's that are being fed the royal jelly are the youngest and the bees either except them and feed them well or reject them. Finding cells or leaving it up to the bees can cause inferior queens if the bees select older larva to make into queens.
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Offline riverbee

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2014, 05:21:09 pm »
"Finding cells or leaving it up to the bees can cause inferior queens if the bees select older larva to make into queens."

apis, do you really think this happens? that bees select older larvae?  i have read so much conflicting info on this however the majority of material says bees are 'smarter' than this and do 'know' the age of the egg/larvae. (feeding, capping, etc.) for example, in jay smith's earlier writing of "Queen Rearing Simplified" or another article "A Plea for Better Bees and Queens" he said essentially the bees would choose older larvae and, in his later writing "Better Queens", he said this was a 'fallacy' and that the bees "do the very best that can be done under existing circumstances".

i would suspect that this might be true, if we have given queenless bees eggs and larvae, the bees only have what we give them to raise a queen.  in a situation of not knowing  hives are queenless, this also might be true given what the failing or former queen left behind, but i also think that bees don't and won't raise a queen given larvae too old of an age. 

not questioning you apis, just asking. i am not fond of emergency queens, walkaway splits, and sometimes not fond of giving queenless bees frames of eggs and larvae to raise their own queens, it's a crap shoot, and i don't like to wait.  i do like to use swarm cells, these queens are usually well fed.  i realize there are many variables, but i do think the bees know to choose the right age larvae, and the best queens are well fed queens.

sorry yankee, didn't mean to sidetrack your thread, just apis post brings up a good point on this subject.  you choosing the larvae that you are grafting, being fed the royal jelly, and the bees accepting them or rejecting them.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2014, 11:11:57 pm »
I have always been led to believe that if given the "CHOICE" the bees would make excellent queens. An emergency situation is less of a choice. they will make a queen of the best they have available, even if the larvae is a day or two older
   If they are forced to use an older larvae, they will do what must be done, and then supersede that queen once she has given them some eggs..

   Only what I have been led to believe, tossing it out there to see if I need to change my perspective.
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Offline Lburou

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2014, 01:45:18 pm »
I have always been led to believe that if given the "CHOICE" the bees would make excellent queens. An emergency situation is less of a choice.....they will do what must be done, and then supersede that queen once she has given them some eggs.
Agreed Lazy.  I've come to the conclusion that what you are really buying is the genes in the queen.  Her genes are then joined with local drone's genes and expressed in the resulting queen.

My guess is that we don't know all about these issues.  I've read that bees will choose the best aged larva and will not choose a larva that is 'too' old.  At the same time, I've seen (laying) queens with visible characteristics of both queens and workers.  Things happen to a colony that can limit larva choices for making a queen.

I first read, and then observed, that bees do in fact show preference for some grafts over others.  This preference is observable right up until she emerges. 

All the grafts that 'take' can make queens, and some queens are better than others.  Is the difference in queens a function of the age of the larva at grafting?  A function of the drone sperm fertilizing that particular egg?  Nutrition?  The phase of the moon?  Does this extra attention some larva get make a better, stronger queen?   I don't think anybody knows all.  :)

The best we can do is follow the procedures of those who do it well and make local adjustments in our own procedures....Save the best and pinch the rest.
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Offline apisbees

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2014, 02:22:09 pm »
It stems from counting the days when I have pulled some frames for a nuc or to put in a cutout and if they did choose the youngest larva, the queen should emerge 12 days later. I have gone in on day 11 and have been to late to grab an extra cell as a queen has already hatched. So they pulled a queen from a 2 day old larva. it doesn't happen all the time but it can and has and as a beekeeper we have no control over it or are even aware that it is happening when it does.
The other advantage over grafting than letting the bees build their own is that the cells are all the same age with in 12 hr. leave it up to the bees they can make a queen from 2 day old larva and as long as the eggs are still hatching in the hive  could continue to draw out queen cells. So from a queen less hive in which no more eggs are being laid but has every thing from just laid eggs to open brood of all ages you could have queen cells that have up to 5 day different in emergence date. If cells are being transferred, depending on the stage of development at some stages the pupa  are extremely delicate and the queen inside can be damaged easily.
I am not saying it will happen but it could happen and you would never know. With grafting you control the grafting age of the larva and all are the same age. In a good, better and best type of queen rearing grafting I consider is the best. 
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2014, 11:40:06 pm »
So you have had bees choose a 2 day old larvae over a 1 day old larvae Apis?

   Makes me wonder if they can tell the difference of a single day?
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Offline riverbee

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2014, 09:36:36 pm »
thanks apis.   ;)
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Offline Lburou

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2014, 11:40:40 pm »
...snip...With grafting you control the grafting age of the larva and all are the same age...snip....
The procedure that works for me is to use a frame that contains only four day old eggs for grafting. 

I get that frame of eggs by putting an empty, drawn frame in the brood nest of the breeder queen four days before grafting.  Then, you know the eggs on that frame are not older than four days.  My breeder queen is confined to three frames for laying, so she will go to town on a new frame.  It requires some juggling of frames, but is worth the effort.  HTH   :)
Lee_Burough

Offline 100 td

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2014, 12:21:28 am »
Quote from: Lburou
I'm using the Hardin method and it is easy.
So are you using the fillers or just frames of brood pollen and honey? "Can" you just use brood/pollen/honey up top instead of fillers?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 12:22:35 am by 100 td »

Offline efmesch

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2014, 02:50:25 am »
Lee, Is there any reason why you don't call "four day old eggs" one-day old larvae?

Offline apisbees

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2014, 10:27:39 am »
Efmesch Has a point after 3 days it is no longer an egg but has hatched into a larva.
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Offline Lburou

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2014, 01:50:27 pm »
Ef and apis, no reason not to call a one day old larva that....Maybe my mind is still taking baby steps on the subject.  Thinking about your question Ef, I realize now that in my mind there will be both eggs and larva on a typical frame, knowing I'll zero in on the larva as I get ready to graft.    When tec was talking to our local Club, he mentioned a disconnect in the terms that he uses to count the age of larva and some people he works with at the University near him.  So, defining terms is always a good thing.  Would it be more clear to state that I'm grafting from a 'donor' frame?

News Flash!
Reporting my first use of the nicot system this week!  Released the queen and found probably 75 eggs (yes, eggs) in the nicot cells this morning.  None hatched yet, they are due to hatch in the next twelve hours.  Its late in the season now and I'm interested in how many queen cells will develop from the 30 eggs I mounted on the cell bar.  Was pretty easy, made possible by my new queen pipe (I'm all thumbs).
Lee_Burough

Offline 100 td

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2014, 06:37:09 pm »
Quote from: Lburou
I'm using the Hardin method and it is easy.
So are you using the fillers or just frames of brood pollen and honey? "Can" you just use brood/pollen/honey up top instead of fillers?
OK, I used brood/honey/pollen it and it works

Offline Lburou

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2014, 07:10:40 pm »
So are you using the fillers or just frames of brood pollen and honey? "Can" you just use brood/pollen/honey up top instead of fillers?
Sorry for being slow to respond to your question.  I have an 8 frame box and use a frame feeder, a dummy board and brood frames brought up from below the excluder (watch for unwanted queen cells!), plus pollen frames and the grafted cells. In a dearth with very hot & dry weather, they will not make one cell now.  Will try later on when it cools and rains again.

I tried without the dummy frame (mine is the width of 3.5 frames) and it definitely hurt the acceptance rate, I'm assuming because the dummy frames make the bee density higher in that box which facilitates them adopting the cells and tending them.  So, yes the dummy frames are important unless you have the hive overcrowded and on the verge of swarming.  HTH  :)
Lee_Burough

Offline 100 td

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2014, 10:48:52 pm »
Quote from: Lburou
Sorry for being slow to respond to your question. 
It's all good, you had answered other Q's after mine so I expected you missed it so I went ahead, 60% success, but that's probably due to my grafting, not the method.......
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 10:50:23 pm by 100 td »

Offline Lburou

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Re: 2nd go around at grafting.
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2014, 11:51:13 pm »
Congratulations 100, glad the Hardin method worked for you.  :)

BTW, thanks again Ef for helping me see the need to use the proper term for day old larva.  Reading my input above confuses me now.  :)
Lee_Burough