Author Topic: Nicot no graft system  (Read 17299 times)

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Offline rodmaker

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Nicot no graft system
« on: June 28, 2014, 07:23:41 pm »
 Is anyone familiar with this system? I just placed a new grid in my donor hive today. How long should i let the bees polish it before i place the queen on it to start laying? My hands shake to bad to graft so thought i would try this system using it along with a cloake board. Any advice would  be greatly appreciated .
joseph

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2014, 09:05:46 pm »
I have not tried it Rod, so cant really help, but will be watching what you figure out with great interest.  I can't graft either.....
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Offline NiceGuyMax

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2014, 12:52:59 pm »
Here is a book I am presently reading about it.
"Nicot Queen Rearing" by Grant Gillard

He says place the cell block with the front cover off, in the hive for 2 days before you add the queen. Make sure you replace the cover when you release into the cell block.

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Offline apisbees

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2014, 01:07:48 pm »
Nicot System and the Jenter system of queen rearing are similar. The difference being that in the Nicot system the eggs are laid in the bottom of the one piece cell cup. The Jenter system uses a a 2 piece cell cup the bottom of the cell where the egg is laid and when it hatches it is removed and inserted in to the bottom of the queen cup. The Jenter system needs the bees to draw out the cells in the plastic frame before the queen will lay in the cells. With the Nicot system the cells cups that are snapped in from the back of the frame are the only cells that are deep enough for the queen to lay in. Do to the way they do snap in I feel that the worker bees may not be able to polish the cups properly when they are in the frames. As the instruction suggests that new cell cups be used every time.

In these queen rearing system and the queen is placed and confined to the frame and the queen lays in the cell bottom that are removed and placed in the cell cups or directly in the cup, so finding the queen is necessary on these systems.

I have used the Jenter system years ago and still us the queen cups but I graft directly into them. The reason I do not use the system as intended is. First you have to find the queen and get her into the cage. It takes leaving the queen in the cage 4 days or longer to get larva the proper age to inserted on cell bars to be drawn as queen cells. You are pulling a frame to place the special frame in the hive and then have to remove the frame and replace the frame after releasing the queen. In the videos most stated 50% success, you should be able to achieve that rate of success grafting directly into cells. The system works it just requires more times going into the hive disturbing the bees and interrupting the laying queen. Having to find and move the queen, rather than just finding a frame with brood the proper age and just grafting from it.

Queen cell building success is dependent on a lot of factors. Cell starter, is one of the most critical that it has bees the proper age and they are ready to look after the cells as soon as they are received. The second is that the larva are not allowed to dry out while being transferred in to the cell builder and the grafts being ignored by the bees until they realize that they are queen less and need the cells drawn. And thirdly that the queen cups are given to the bees to polish before the  larva are laid or grafted in the cells.

Patience is needed the bees some time take a while to polish the cells and draw the cells out before the queen will start laying. once you have young larva in the cells it is just a mater of pulling the cell bottom of the cell out and placing it in the bottom of the queen cup. No grafting needs to be done and the larva is undisturbed in it royal jelly. The issue is the starter accepting the cells some jump right on it, other times the # of rejected cells can be high whether it is cause the cells were not polished by the bees or lack of bees the proper age or lack of honey flow. There are so many variables that effect the success of queen rearing and as most find out requires resources, skills and commitment to be successful. To raise queens from your best hive can cause it to no longer be your best hive due to over management of the colony depending on the methods used. I bought a Jenter system and haven't used it the way it was designed for the last 25 years I found it easier and just as effective to graft directly in to the queen cells. But if grafting is a problem these system allows you to avoid having to do grafting.
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Offline robo

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2014, 01:44:58 pm »
When they are new, it takes a little longer for the box to become "acceptable".   After it gets old and "smells good"  I let them polish it for one day.   If you leave it too long, they will put nectar in the cell cups.   Don't ask me how I know :-X

Here is my method -> http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/queen-rearing/

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Offline apisbees

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2014, 05:38:07 pm »
Rob on the Nicot system can the workers clean and polish the cell cups well enough when they are in the box or is it best to use new cells.
I know with the Jenter that it is best to put the complete cell cup in a hive so the entire cup is polished then remove the cup bottom and place it in the box for the queen to lay in, then place the cell bottom with the fed larva in the polished cell cup.
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Offline robo

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2014, 08:45:02 am »
Good question and I don't know if I can answer it,  but can share my experience.

I have never tried to reuse a cup that had a queen reared in it.  I have re-used cups that either had not been laid in, or had eggs laid in them but not used.  The box holds 110? cups,  and I doubt there are many folks that can handle raising that many queens at one time.   However,  it is imperative that the box be fully populated with cups when using it. If you don't,  workers can sneak through the open cell and get into the back of the box.  It is quite tight and they end up getting stuck and die.   I seem to get similar results if I reuse cups that have been through the cycle already but not used completely (queen hatched).  Depending on how long the box is put into the hive (and the hive)  I have seen them seal the crack where the bottom of the cell walls contact the bottom of the cell cup.  This leaves a ring of propolis in the bottom of the cell cup when removed.  I can't say whether this effect the success of a cell or not,  but I have seen it on new and used cups.

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Offline rodmaker

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2014, 06:42:03 pm »
  Placed Queen on grid today. The grid was placed in the hive on saturday the 28th so three days to polish cups . Hope she lays today so i can release her tomorrow. will place the cloake board on the day before the eggs are due to hatch? Any help with timing greatly appreciated. This is the first time for me to raise queens other than ots and want a better quality than emergency queens I'm afraid they won't make it through winter so i want to requeen. The donor queen is from a very docile hive of survivor stock that has not been treated in five years. They appear to open up cells and discard larva with mites . never get a mite count on their sticky board so i figure she will make a good donor queen. Any thoughts?
joseph

Offline robo

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2014, 07:44:15 pm »
  Any help with timing greatly appreciated.
http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/queen-rearing/
Quote
want a better quality than emergency queens I'm afraid they won't make it through winter so i want to requeen.
Wise decision... :yes:

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison


Offline rodmaker

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2014, 09:50:46 pm »
   Robo  I now have your calendar ready for when eggs hatch . Thank you very much. I read the entire file and will return to it often. I like the way you used abc instead of numbers it will help me a lot.
joseph

Offline robo

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2014, 09:11:36 am »
Good luck...  Sometimes a given queen won't lay in the grid in one day,  so that will bump back the days.

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Offline rodmaker

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2014, 02:55:23 pm »
  Checked the grid this mourning no eggs yet will check tomorrow. How long can the queen be left on the grid? She has about forty bees in the grid with her.
joseph

Offline apisbees

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2014, 03:14:49 pm »
The workers will come and go in to the grid through the queen excluder cover. She could be kept in the cage for a long time as it is basically the same as a queen in a queen cage in a queen bank but allowed to lay 101 eggs. The longer she is in it will effect her laying in the hive. to long and with no new eggs and eggs hatching into brood could start the bees thinking about supersedure. I would think is she doesn't lay in 3 days she is refusing and most likely never will. Check on in the late afternoon and she could have it laid.
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Offline robo

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2014, 03:21:27 pm »
New grids can be a challenge it seems.   Once they have been used, future queens seem to be better.   Although it is the exception and not the norm,  I have found some queens that just don't want to lay in it.  As Apis suggested, my rule of thumb is 3 days and then I'll move on to another queen.   Since the grid is new,  you could stretch it a day or two, but I wouldn't go more than that.

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Offline rodmaker

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2014, 03:29:19 pm »
  This is what i was thinking of only leaving her in for three days max because i don't want to lose the eggs i am missing while she is in the grid. If she does not lay in the grid would it be helpful to leave it in the hive for a week and then try again with the same queen? I really want these genetics due to the way this hive deals with mites and it is very docile.
joseph

Offline robo

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2014, 03:35:10 pm »
You can try.  There is the risk that they will store nectar in the cell cups.   Although this would make added work for you to clean out before re-confining the queen,  it might actually help her to lay in them.    The best way I found to get queens to lay in new Honey Super Cell (fully drawn 4.9 plastic comb) was to have the bees store honey in them first.

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Offline rodmaker

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2014, 05:06:26 pm »
   Robo i did as you suggested and rechecked the grid this afternoon about 10 minutes ago and there are about twenty eggs so i went ahead and released the queen. I am going to proceed with the letter system you use and see how i do. thank you for all your help. Now i just wait a couple days then set up my cloake board and see how it goes.
joseph

Offline apisbees

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2014, 06:03:44 pm »
I would make sure the frame is between 2 frames of eggs and larva so there are lots of nurse bees close by to feed the young larva when they hatch. With no nurse bees close by they could get ignored if they were off oo their own next to capped brood and honey and nectar. As you will see all the larva will not be fed to the same extent. This could be because of how long ago they hatched as this is when the bees first feed the larva.
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Offline rodmaker

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2014, 07:56:43 pm »
  Apis thank you for your concern . The grid is between two full frames of larva right in the middle of a ten frame box. Will be moving to a five frame nuc that has a deep super so ten frames of bees. Will use a cloake board between the two and after started will return to queen right.All just a matter of timing and up to the bees to accept or reject .
joseph

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Re: Nicot no graft system
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2014, 11:40:35 am »
  Feeling foolish!  Went out to set up cloake board on starter hive and just for the heck of it i looked into the donor hive to see the grid and check eggs. Well there weren't any what i thought were eggs is a dot from the manufacture of the cups . So i located the queen and confined her to the grid again. Will check again tomorrow. This is why i don't graft I'm blind . Oh well !
joseph