Worldwide Beekeeping

Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: omnimirage on January 12, 2018, 02:04:10 am

Title: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on January 12, 2018, 02:04:10 am
I've come across some people arguing to use bee swarms, rather than to buy queen bees. The argument was that, bee swarms have grown strong enough to be able to split off and adapt to one's local environment, whereas queens are often enough not suitable for such and tend to under perform in comparison.

At least here in my part of Australia, people like buying queen bees from the local bee sanctuary, Kangaroo Island, which houses a pure strain of Ligurian Bee.

Now I'm wanting to split a number of my hives to expand my operation. I have one hive that's probably the most productive of the lot (could just be because it's the oldest most established), and it's also by far the most aggressive hive. I figure that, in spite of how productive they are, I don't wish to duplicate such aggressive bees and if anything, I should try to replace the queen with more gentler genetics. I've thought about finding the queen and squishing her, then take out all the frames that have eggs/young larvae in them, and replace them with eggs/young larvae from hives that have more desired traits. I figure I can do this with any beehive that has undesirable characteristics. A number of my hives don't ever seem to perform too well. It's difficult to tell if it's just due to their current circumstances, that they just need more time, or whether the genetics of the bees is not as strong.

This is all a pretty fascinating topic. How do you guys manage the genetics of your bees?
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: Wandering Man on January 12, 2018, 09:16:12 am
As a hobbiests, I don’t try to manipulate the genetics. We live in an area where many, if not most, of the swarms caught have some degree of Africanized genetics. I’ve learned this the hard way. Now, if I catch a swarm I order a queen from somebody I trust, and replace the original queen as soon as possible.

I’ve had swarms start of really gentle. Then become very aggressive, once they’ve established themselves in the nuc.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: Some Day on January 12, 2018, 10:00:48 am
omnirange,

I think I would just replace the queen in the hot hive and wait 60 days.  After that amount of time the vast majority of the hot queen offspring will have expended them selves.  I am lazy, so take this for what it is worth.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on January 12, 2018, 04:49:16 pm
That's basically what I'm considering doing Some Day.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: apisbees on January 12, 2018, 05:46:29 pm
Just replace the queen. If you want the hive to raise it's own queen add a cell from another hive and remove any cells that the bees draw from thats queen larva. but be aware that any queens mated with in 5 miles of that yard may be betting some of the queen genetics from mating with her drowns. I think I read or heard some where that they thought that aggressiveness came from the drones.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on January 12, 2018, 06:14:51 pm
I don't think I have any queen cells and probably won't see any until Spring, which is nine months away.

Can't I just give them eggs instead?

That's even more of a reason to replace the queen, I wouldn't want my other colonies to be bred with these aggressive genes.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: apisbees on January 12, 2018, 11:23:01 pm
Yes lit them draw out a cell but from a frame of hive genetics you want the easiest way to do this is to remove the queen and leave them alone for 5 days queen-less on the 6th day go through the hive and remove any queen cells they have started. Then place a frame with eggs and young larva from a hive that you like the queen from in the hive. Then in 5 days check the frame and it should have well fed drawn down queen cells a day away from being capped. If you find capped cells then the bees have started cells from some older larva and any that are capped should be removed to get rid of these inferior cells that will emerge before the better cells that were raised from young larva. You want a queen from 12 hr old larva not 24+  hr old larva. So if the cells are capped sooner than they should be, then the bee used older larva.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: Bakersdozen on January 13, 2018, 11:18:26 am
Yes lit them draw out a cell but from a frame of hive genetics you want the easiest way to do this is to remove the queen and leave them alone for 5 days queen-less on the 6th day go through the hive and remove any queen cells they have started. Then place a frame with eggs and young larva from a hive that you like the queen from in the hive. Then in 5 days check the frame and it should have well fed drawn down queen cells a day away from being capped. If you find capped cells then the bees have started cells from some older larva and any that are capped should be removed to get rid of these inferior cells that will emerge before the better cells that were raised from young larva. You want a queen from 12 hr old larva not 24+  hr old larva. So if the cells are capped sooner than they should be, then the bee used older larva.

Another "pearl of wisdom" from apisbees.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: Barbarian on January 14, 2018, 01:32:13 am
The old adage ..... "BREED FROM THE BEST .... SCRAP THE REST"

I don't like aggressive bees. Such hives get re-queened from my own local stock.

Out-sourced Qs may seem attractive but there can be problems in the first year and subsequent years.

I collect swarms from local calls but do not use the Q or her eggs to make new Qs.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on January 15, 2018, 09:40:16 pm
Very interesting apisbees. What's the purpose of removing the queen cells at first though? Is it not particularly practicable to just remove all the frames that have eggs/young larvae on them?
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: apisbees on January 16, 2018, 06:07:44 am
Emergency queens are some times inferior and are prone to being superseded. this can be caused by not being fed good high protein royal jelly, or the bees raised a queen from older larva so it feeds on royal jelly for a shorter amount of time. The age of the larvas the bees draw cells from will effect the quality of the queen. The first queen that emerges will tare down the other cells, now if one queen cell was drawn from an older larva, it will hit the 16th day and emerge a day or two before the cells that are drawn from larva the optimum age.
By looking at the cells when by counting on the calendar you can calculate that any cell that is already capped were drawn from an older larva, it will help in culling some potential poor emergency queens.

While were discussing queen quality, the quality of the queen is tied to the quality and the abundance of the royal jelly. To get this you need lots of young nurse bees. Old field bees can make royal jelly but it is not as good. So placing a comb with eggs in a queen less hive with very few young nurse bees may not give you the best queens.  It might give them a queen that they can build a better queen from in the future though.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on January 16, 2018, 09:26:09 pm
Very interesting indeed! Makes sense to then remove the first set of queen cells. Would a hive tend to remove a inferior emergency queen after sometime, or is it common for an emergency queen to live for years?

So if I was to take the whole remove all the eggs/larvae approach, I'd have to remove pretty much everything except the very large larvae? I'm not sure how practical this would be. I'd just like to save petrol money if possible by not visiting again five days later but it seems it may be best to do so.

Is there anyway to tell which bees are the young nurse bees? Are they simply the bees that are smaller than the rest?

Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: apisbees on January 17, 2018, 05:40:08 am
"Very interesting indeed! Makes sense to then remove the first set of queen cells. Would a hive tend to remove a inferior emergency queen after sometime, or is it common for an emergency queen to live for years?"
They generally get superseded fairly quickly, but is hard on the hive build up. 20 days no egg followed by a 4 or 5 week of poor egg laying before the superseded queen is laying

"So if I was to take the whole remove all the eggs/larvae approach, I'd have to remove pretty much everything except the very large larvae? I'm not sure how practical this would be. I'd just like to save petrol money if possible by not visiting again five days later but it seems it may be best to do so."
I cull short cells. When cells are drawn by young nurse bees and are fed an abundance of good royal jelly the bees draw the cells out long. short cells to me means cell started from older larva, poorly fed, or poor quality of royal jelly.

"Is there anyway to tell which bees are the young nurse bees? Are they simply the bees that are smaller than the rest?"
The bees that are on frames that have open brood. These are the bees that are making royal jelly and beebread being fed to the larva
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on January 17, 2018, 07:25:37 am
Good information. I'll have to pay more attention to cell size. Makes sense to determine whether a bee is a nurse bee based upon what they're actually doing in the hive. I've noticed that some bees are smaller than others; are these more likely to be younger bees, do they get bigger with age?
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: apisbees on January 17, 2018, 12:13:49 pm
When they first emerge,their wings and body hairs are pressed flat to their bodes so they look smaller till their hair fluffs up and their wings dry out and away from their bodies.
Also the size of the bee is influenced by the size of the cell it was raised in. With each round of brood the cells get another pupae smaller, So the older and darker the comb the smaller the bees that emerges from the cell will be. So in a hive you can find bees of different sizes depending on the different comb they emerged from. Now the interesting fact. If you co foundation-less the cell size the bees make for brood is effected by the size of the bees drawing out the cells.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on January 17, 2018, 05:12:21 pm
How very interesting. So they do all their growing when inside the comb huh. If one was using a queen excluder for many years and the brood chamber contained comb that was very dark and the comb size became quite small, could it ever be worthwhile to tear it out and turn it into beeswax, and let the bees make fresh wax? It's pretty interesting that those small bees that I've saw came from smaller comb.

Are there any differences in the hive if the bees are allowed to form their own comb and with it, decide for themselves the size of their bees?
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: apisbees on January 18, 2018, 07:54:00 am
"the brood chamber contained comb that was very dark and the comb size became quite small, could it ever be worthwhile to tear it out and turn it into beeswax"
For bee health, keeping bees on clean newer comb as any diseases and spores of those diseases will stay in the comb and build up. Then if the hive becomes stressed the disease may manifest and you have a break out of chalk brood, efb, afb, sacbrood, Also to avoid pesticide residue build up in the comb It is suggested that we cull comb that is 5 years old which works out to 20 percent of the comb in the brood supers. Doing this will get the old comb out of our hives.

"Are there any differences in the hive if the bees are allowed to form their own comb and with it, decide for themselves the size of their bees?"
Yes, No, Maybe. There are advantages and disadvantages. With foundation the bees are encouraged by the unprinted foundation to build worker comb. Left to their own they will build more drone cells. but the wax the bees draw out is predestine as foundation could be made with wax that has some chemical residue. If this is a concern then you can get plastic foundation with out a wax coating and coat the frames with your own wax. Capping wax is generally clean of chemicals. It is the wax from old rendered down brood comb that the higher chemical counts appear in.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on January 18, 2018, 07:13:07 pm
Good to know that about old comb!

I do coat the plastic foundation with my own wax as it's most economically viable. I have quite  bit of old, yuck comb to turn into beeswax. From what you've said, it seems like it might not be wise to use that wax to coat my frames. Should I just try to sell it instead? I'm not sure if I can just keep processing it until all the gunk is out of it and I have mostly pure wax, or would the chemical buildup remain in the wax?
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: apisbees on January 18, 2018, 08:05:31 pm
There was a study a few years back on wax in the USA and almost all the samples were found to contain multiple chemicals. It turned out that 6 out of the 7 chemicals found highest in levels found the most often were chemicals that were used by beekeepers in mite treatment.
Seen as you have not had to treat for mites your wax will be a lot cleaner from chemicals. Any chemicals will be from your environment which will be in any new wax the bees make so in Australia I would not worry about it.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on January 19, 2018, 11:11:42 pm
How fascinating apisbees. Seems like I need to be quite mindful about what chemicals I introduce around my hives.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on January 22, 2018, 05:21:38 am
If all my hives came from swarms, am I, to some extent, selecting bees with genes that encourage swarming behaviour? Is swarming behaviour influenced by genetics?
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: apisbees on January 22, 2018, 11:16:27 am
It can be but it can also be caused by lazy genetics in the beekeeper in that he did not provide for the bees in a way as to not give the bees any other choice than to swarm.
You could have a real prolific queen that is quick to build up and builds extremely populous colonies. and if that hive is cared for like colonies that have a inferior queen, They will run out of space and will enter swarm mode. Is it the bees or the beekeeper that didn't get to their needs in time. This all being said there are some hives or strains of bees that do swarm sooner and more often, but with out knowing the conditions or how the bees were cared for in the mother colony, you need to hive them and then make your own judgement on each colony.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: Barbarian on January 23, 2018, 12:30:34 am
Some strains of bees have a strong urge to swarm. It can be a good trait for the survival of the strain. Evolution and all that.

For the beekeeper, it is not welcome. Extra work, loss of bees, loss of honey crop, problems with neighbours. Sometimes a hive will swarm and swarm until there is nothing left.

It is possible to breed a strain of bees that has a reduced urge to swarm.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on January 23, 2018, 04:05:35 pm
If I have hives that seem to always struggle and not do well whereas hives alongside them are booming, would it be worthwhile to replace the queen?
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: tedh on January 23, 2018, 05:00:33 pm
If I have hives that seem to always struggle and not do well whereas hives alongside them are booming, would it be worthwhile to replace the queen?

Definitely!  Ted
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on January 26, 2018, 06:41:11 am
Today I've done some research into different honeybee species, specifically focusing on Western honey bees. I found this:

http://beesource.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/table1beetraits.png

It states that the Apis mellifera ligustica, or Ligurian, Italian honeybee is the most productive honey production wise. Is this thought to be true? All things considering, it seems this subspecies would be best for me. The disadvantages of excessive brood reading seems like it could be largely mitigated with some forethought and maybe sugar feeding. Do you guys have much thought on comparing different subspecies of Apis mellifera in environments with winters that don't reach freezing levels, and that don't have Varroa or much pests/diseases in general?
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: apisbees on January 26, 2018, 05:32:35 pm
It was the preferred bee that was raised and promoted in California for years it builds up early to strong colonies. The problem is that this trait in the bee will also cause its demise in areas that have long winters. They brood up to early and then eat through their winter feed before spring. They will have brood that they will not abandon, too stay on the food.
In your climate I think they would do quite well, if you can keep the swarming under control.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on January 26, 2018, 06:15:02 pm
Yeah, the wintering thing isn't a problem here. I've read that they're less inclined to swarm than other breeds which is part of the appeal to me.

I haven't confirmed, but it's quite possible that my bees are Apis mellifera mellifera. How would I be able to tell for certain? Would I be able to take some photos and have you guys tell me what subspecies they are? What sort of advantages and disadvantages would I have with these two different species?

This is a list of the queen bee breeders in my state:

http://www.aussieapiaristsonline.net/queen-bees-for-sale.html

I've worked alongside the man from Kangaroo Island who offers the pure Ligurian strain. I've actually read some articles that has me questioning whether they truly do offer a pure Ligurian strain. There's a few breeders who cross breed Ligurians with other subspecies. I'm just trying to work out which would be best for me, and whether I should seek to change the queens of my colonies with some queens from these distributors.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on February 11, 2018, 01:11:06 am
These are bees from one of my hives. They are predominately dark, but I've seen photos of bees that are dark coloured, and also allegedly Apis mellifera ligustica. Are these Apis mellifera mellifera?

https://imgur.com/a/UsWHa
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: apisbees on February 11, 2018, 01:38:52 am
you can not guaranty what a queen looks like or her breed by examining the workers. The hive population with in a single hive can very in how the workers look. By looking at the queen you may be able to see queen breed traits, looks and markings. but even this is not a totally reliable system. The only sure way would be to provide a bee sample for DNA testing. I would suspect that many beekeepers select breeders on looks and traits that are consistent with the breed they are selling. With bees being transported all around the world and into every reagion of the earth I doubt that you could come up with a pure strain of any type of the first bee species.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on February 11, 2018, 08:05:33 pm
darn, I was hoping that I could get a good idea based upon just visually assessing. Do you know whether DNA testing is a costly exercise?

Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: Lburou on February 11, 2018, 10:42:03 pm
darn, I was hoping that I could get a good idea based upon just visually assessing. Do you know whether DNA testing is a costly exercise?
It is easy to get hung up on phenotypes, but it is really more about how those bees behave and perform in your location than anything else.  Sample bees available to you from local sources, then choose from those you like best and propagate those bees.  You can order in a queen from time to time too.   JMO   :)
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on February 11, 2018, 11:33:36 pm
It's just I don't what species my bees are, some of my hives are doing well but it's possible if I had Ligurians, they'd do even better. I guess I'll just replace the hives that aren't doing well with Ligurian queens, and then see how they perform.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: Lburou on February 11, 2018, 11:46:03 pm
It's just I don't what species my bees are, some of my hives are doing well but it's possible if I had Ligurians, they'd do even better. I guess I'll just replace the hives that aren't doing well with Ligurian queens, and then see how they perform.
That sounds like a good plan to me Omni.  :)
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: riverbee on February 22, 2018, 04:13:10 pm
great thread omni, i have pinned this as a topic sticky, some great questions and great information.

also please post back about what you decide to do, and update with any progress!
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: Les on March 28, 2018, 07:49:32 pm
This was a great thread!
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: LazyBkpr on April 19, 2018, 04:46:54 pm

   I have struggled for several years with genetics, trying to bring in bees that are mite resistant. Minnesota hygenic, etc, etc...  and to be honest, some of them seemed to do well, and some of them didn't, as far as the mites were concerned. Some did great with mites, and horrible at producing honey, OR overwintering.. some overwintered well but were horrible at controlling mites.
   I admit that i have more or less given up at this point. We do not have africanized bees, so I routinely end up with mutt queens if I don't stay on top of requeening and keep really good records..   With the number of hives I am working with, that is getting to be difficult...    My primary concern is overwintering. Then production, and then temperment...   Bees that survive unbelievably crazy winters, like the one we just had are GOOD bees!!!   I will be paying attention to which hives produce the best honey crops, and these are the hives I will grow from next spring.

   Ordering queens has proven to be quite a crapshoot in my experience. That amazing POL Golden queen you put in a hive is laying well, but the bees built queen cells to replace her almost as soon as she was laying....   Using my own queens from survivor hives has proven to be a LOT more beneficial in longevity, survival, and production... so KNOWING the background of my bees is no longer important to me, so long as they LIVE, and they give me extra honey!!   ;D
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on April 19, 2018, 09:47:36 pm
Very interesting LazyBkpr. Sounds like you've got a lot more things to be mindful than I do, with needing bees to be protective against mites and have good overwintering issues. I need to do better documentation myself.

I've decided myself that I want Ligurians in my apiaries. Problem is, every consecutive generation will lead them breeding with the native Dark European Honeybees and become progressively less Ligurian. I can buy Queens from Kangaroo Island, that way they'll be a much purer strain of Ligurian than queens bought from the mainland, so my bees will have more Ligurian genetics over the course of a number of generations. Still just trying to work it out all.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: LazyBkpr on April 19, 2018, 09:51:50 pm
If you only have a few hives, even ten, you will have an easier time requeening with a pure strain every two to three years. It is lettign them raise their opwn queens, or raising YOUR own queens that will dilute those pure (ish) lines. It is possible to do, and to maintain, if your willing to put in the time...    I have been accused of being a bit lazy  :P
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on April 19, 2018, 10:24:26 pm
I have to wonder then, if I can't breed my own somewhat predominate strain of Ligurians due to my virgin queens mating with local feral Dark European Honeybee drones... then how would these breeders do that? I'm skeptical of buying these apparent Ligurians off these breeders as I have no way of verifying or really knowing what they are actually selling. I figure I'll send an inquiry message of sorts, expressing interest in Ligurians and asking them a little bit about their operation. I also have the option of buying Ligurians from Kangaroo Island, which is a bee sanctuary that has the purest strain of Ligurian in the world. I'm not sure if it'd be best to buy queens exclusively from Kangaroo Island, or if trying Ligurians from other states might be worthwhile as well.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: apisbees on April 19, 2018, 10:59:26 pm
The queen breeders are selecting and producing queens from their best hives. Ask what traits they are selecting for and if it fits in with what you like in your hives, buy a few and evaluate them and if you like one or 2 add them to your breading program. The thing with queens is that even produced from the same hive you can see a difference in the colones that they are in. Not all queens are made equal.
As important as selecting for traits you like. also removing hives that have traits that you do not like. Colony that shows any sign of disease. hives that are aggressive. possibly hives that swarm.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: omnimirage on April 19, 2018, 11:21:23 pm
Great information thanks, gives me a better idea how to structure my email to them.

I have maybe 10 hives that I can split from. There's 6 people selling Ligurians in Australia. Four are from New South Wales, I read a report that showed more north east coast of New South Wales has a lot of Africanised bees present, so if the breeders from NSW are near that region I don't think I'll buy off them. I figure I'd need at least two queens from a breeder to get any remotely fair understanding of the quality of stock they are selling.

What do you think about buying just straight up pure breed Ligurians from Kangaroo Island? Would they likely be a better investment than mainland, more hybrid Ligurians? I'm under the impression that due to heterosis, the first generation of hybrids are likely to be stronger, healthier bees than their pure breed types, and that queens bought from Kangaroo Island are more inclined to be purebreeds, so the queen that I buy from them won't have any of this hybrid vigor, but the next generation will, whereas Ligurians bought from the mainland will likely be hybrids, so they will have this added hybrid vigor quality about them, but then the next queen, the next generation will be of lesser quality.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: apisbees on April 20, 2018, 12:08:20 am
I would worry less about lines and more about the quality's that are in the queens, In BC in the 1980's the government developed a bee breading stock and race was not a consideration it was traits and production that was the factor in selecting which queens were selected for mating from. and if anything showed any sins of disease it was out.
Here is a link to a podcast interview from John Gates. He ran the BC stock improvement program and taught most in BC how to raise queens and be more self sufficient when it comes to bees. I owe a lot of what I know about bees to him. He lives 20 minutes down the road from me.
http://blogs.oregonstate.edu/pollinationpodcast/?tag=john-gates
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: Jen on April 20, 2018, 01:41:45 am
Amazing thread here! Think i'll read it twice
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: LazyBkpr on April 20, 2018, 08:10:45 am
"I would worry less about lines and more about the quality's"

    Well said!  That million dollar race horse can have the best lines in the world, but if he can't run he isn't worth the time spent on his papers. Talk to those breeders about the queens they are offering and find out what qualities they are working for the most.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: tecumseh on May 19, 2018, 08:16:24 am
and Apisbee snip..
' If you find capped cells then the bees have started cells from some older larva and any that are capped should be removed to get rid of these inferior cells that will emerge before the better cells that were raised from young larva. You want a queen from 12 hr old larva not 24+  hr old larva. So if the cells are capped sooner than they should be, then the bee used older larva.'

a points here that run a bit contrary to Apisbees comments.... by the book it takes 16 days for a queen to go from egg to emerged virgin. The first thing you should understand is like all thing biological this is a mean ESTIMATION with variation of about one day + and - around that date.  Consequently a properly created virgin may emerge a day earlier or a day later than the book given estimation.  Second point in regards to my own experience in rearing queens here the day and night time temperature will effect the time from cell formation to emerged virgin.  We tend to pay little attention to night time temperature but cool night will tend to make emergence a bit late and warm night a bit early.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: Dave2 on April 01, 2019, 07:59:27 pm
I've been watching some youtube videos from a university in Ontario with a Buckfast breeding program on an isolated island
They suggest the gentleness trait is carried by the drones
Seems to me you want to suppress the drones in aggressive colonies and promote drones in desirable colonies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUpApdL49Rc&t=622s
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: Honey Hive Farms on July 23, 2021, 11:08:01 pm
We like changing up our stock every two years to help keep them stronger.
Like the Cordovan Italians a lot.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: Bakersdozen on October 02, 2021, 06:33:39 pm
I think it's a good time to revisit this thread.  It's a great subject.
Over the past few months I have heard various knowledgeable speakers talk honey bee genetics.  I heard Krispn Given, Purdue University, Queen breeder and researcher, a few days ago.  He suggests that if you are going to have a breeding program, the beekeeper needs at least 100 hives.  His process is not a one time achievement.  Breeding for varroa biters has to be ongoing as each generation crosses with drones that are not from varroa biting stock.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: RAST on October 02, 2021, 09:00:11 pm
Or invest in some expensive equipment and learn AI.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: .30WCF on May 05, 2022, 10:21:26 pm
As a hobbiests, I don’t try to manipulate the genetics. We live in an area where many, if not most, of the swarms caught have some degree of Africanized genetics. I’ve learned this the hard way. Now, if I catch a swarm I order a queen from somebody I trust, and replace the original queen as soon as possible.

I’ve had swarms start of really gentle. Then become very aggressive, once they’ve established themselves in the nuc.

It could be timing. I don’t know what’s going I. Where you are vs where I am.
I found myself in a similar situation last year/ this year. My bees had gotten awful. I mean awful. Most people would have gasses them I suppose. The instant I pulled the cover, it was a flat out attack to my veil that smelled like a banana spit topped with banana Now and Laters. It was a constant hail of bees bouncing off my jacket. This all started last year with some sate splits. They got nastier the later it got towards fall. Again this spring they were flying at me if you cracked the lid a 1/2”. If the cover was off, it was a swarm about me. Just stinging my gloves, stinging my veil, and my sleeves. 2 out of 10 or so hives were like that, but it would aggravate others with all the bananas you could smell and taste in the air.
Once it hit warm enough, right before the honey flow I gave this queens a good look at my hive tool. It was smashing.
A while later, they raised their own queens from the mean “bee’s” eggs, and I can now, a few brood cycles in, go about a normal inspection. I may even get back to veil-less in a few more weeks.

To your other point, I hear folks say that’s warms are acclimated to an area. I never saw a swarm of bees until I started keeping bees, but that’s not for not looking or being outdoors and aware. I catch my bees, and I catch my neighbors bees, what I don’t catch is wild bees that didn’t come from someone else’s hive. That swarm is probably your queen, or someone else’s last year’’s queen that swarmed.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: .30WCF on May 06, 2022, 07:15:10 am
I don’t have African bees in my area, so my above post may be irrelevant, but I’ve had luck just letting them make their own queen.
Title: Re: Bee genetics
Post by: RAST on May 06, 2022, 07:32:48 am
Discussion at our bee meeting last night. The instructor/moderator is a commercial queen breeder/pollinator from just north of Tampa Fl. The state does DNA testing on his breeder bees. They found a 95% AHB in one hive, he says that it is a hive that can be worked without a jacket most days and remains that way. He no longer breeds out of it to be on the safe side, but the general consensus was the state testing was flawed or records mixed up.