Author Topic: Plastic frames (Read 3209 times)

elongoalie2002 · « **on:** March 05, 2018, 08:40:42 pm »

I am looking at transitioning to complete plastic frames.

Any pros or cons?

Any benefit to using black or white?

Looking at these
https://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/beekeepingsupplies/framesfoundation/onepieceplastic

Thank you in advance!

Perry · « **Reply #1 on:** March 05, 2018, 08:42:50 pm »

Black in brood chambers, white in honey supers. I am not a fan of plastic frames, too much flex, and when SHB gets here there are too many hiding spots in the channels that bees can't get at. I run wax coated plastic foundation in wooden frames.

By the way,

to the forum.

Bakersdozen · « **Reply #2 on:** March 05, 2018, 08:47:29 pm »

Welcome! Glad to have you here. Be sure to join in the conversation. That makes it more interesting for everyone.
Can I ask why you want to transition to complete plastic frames and foundation? Just curious.

elongoalie2002 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 05, 2018, 08:59:33 pm »

Broke down my hives to move them since both of the hives died this past fall & winter. Found the wood had chunks chewed out of them like bugs had eaten away at the wood. A friend that has bees uses them and I thought this might help me with the lack of damage to equipment in the future. I am completely open to any and all opinions and shared knowledge.

Jen · « **Reply #4 on:** March 05, 2018, 11:45:52 pm »

Hi elon, I don't use any full plastic frames anymore. Reasons being...

They are two wobbly, I can have my hands on each side of the frame doing an examination, and twist the frame like an accordian. That is too much movement for the queen to loose grip and fall off.

On a hot day, even in the shade, the plastic gets too hot and soft. I can slide my hive tool under the lip of the top bar, and the plastic will break, my hive tool will snap up, the frame will let go and slide back down into the box with a thump... Now I have mad bees, and that a good way to kill a queen, and get stung.

I use wood and wired wax frames for my brood frames in all hives. Then wood and plastic frames for honey, they spin better in the extractor, less blow outs.

Welome!

Riverrat · « **Reply #5 on:** March 06, 2018, 09:30:26 am »

Bill vinduska runs permacomb full drawn plastic frames in his operation. He has had some great success with them. Expensive to get started but has a lot of advanages. no wax moth or small hie beetle slime ruining the drawn comb

riverbee · « **Reply #6 on:** March 06, 2018, 11:27:20 am »

"Found the wood had chunks chewed out of them like bugs had eaten away at the wood."

this sounds like wax moth damage? do you know why you lost your hives?

like others, i do not care for all plastic frames. too weebly wobbly.

like perry i use wood frames, pierco waxed foundation, black for the brood chambers, and white for supers. i do have wood frames with drawn beeswax foundation in both as well.

best way to prevent damage to equipment is to do our best to stay on top of any pest problem, and it can be challenging!

welcome to the forum!

neillsayers · « **Reply #7 on:** March 06, 2018, 05:10:33 pm »

Lots of good feedback here. My two cents is I have heard that SHB much prefer black foundation.

Lburou · « **Reply #8 on:** March 06, 2018, 11:47:27 pm »

One issue not mentioned so far is the burr comb, (ladder comb), bees build above plastic frames and the frames above them. It creates unnecessary extra work. The plastic frames also warp over time & chip in the cold. I prefer wooden frames with plastic foundation. HTH

CBT · « **Reply #9 on:** March 07, 2018, 07:25:07 am »

Alongside the others there are a few downsides to these frames. If it is drawn out and you drop it 2 inches into the hive body the corner will snap off like Jen said.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #10 on:** March 08, 2018, 07:19:04 am »

Everyone chimed in well, and I agree with everything said. I have tried them, and I still have a few plastic frames in some of my hives, but they are slowly getting weeded out.
I have never tried permacomb so do not know how rugged it is.

My experience with plastic frames is that at first, they work pretty good, but after a year they start to get difficult. When they get filled with brood or god forbid HONEY they are seriously lacking. As mentioned, they flex, A LOT, and when they are well glued into the hive by the bees, they become a danger. A danger in that they will break. The ears pop off when you least expect it, and the flex when you are trying to pry one of those frames out on a hot August day smashes bees and makes them really angry.
That always made ME angry... I threw an entire plastic frame filled with brood across the yard, replaced it with a wooden frame, and the next time I mowed I had plastic pieces strewn across the yard.
Yep, I have a bit of a temper, but it was SO satisfying.

Jacobs · « **Reply #11 on:** March 08, 2018, 08:47:50 am »

At our local association (Guilford County Beekeepers Association), we formed a "Mite Patrol" to teach members how to do sugar shakes for varroa, and then teach them the full Federal (respirators, eye protection, gloves, etc., and LEGAL OA) OA vaporization techniques. We don't see much in the way of fully plastic frames, but I learned the hard way to ask--concentrated heat and plastic don't do well together.

efmesch · « **Reply #12 on:** March 08, 2018, 03:29:51 pm »

It looks like I disagree with most of the opinions expressed so far.

I LOVE plastic frames---but that comes with a big BUT. It seems like the plastic frames available here in Israel are made much stronger and stiffer than those the others have been using. The plastic frames I have are one piece, yellow and stiff (but still slightly flexible).

What is it that I love about the plastics?

1. They are long-lasting. Though I don't have them dated, I'm certain that several of mine are over 20 years in service and still as good as new.
2. The foundation doesn't stretch or warp so the cells built on them are nice and regular (worker cells) and stay in the middle.
3. No messing with wiring and no need for embedding the wires in the wax foundation.
4. They are strong and don't get damaged during extraction.
5. Easily re-usable. When the cells get too dark (and therefore small) the wax can be scraped off and the combs can be rebuilt.

HOWEVER. Generally, bees don't particularly like to build directly on plastic foundation. To get them to build the frames, the plastic must be properly coated with wax or/and placed in the hives during the heat of a honey-flow, when the girls will build almost anywhere.
Don't get me wrong--the large majority of my frames are wooden and I use wax foundation sheets. But I really wish I had more plastic frames.

If you are thinking of stocking up on frames for future expansion, I would recommend trying at least a few plastic frames and reach your own decision.

treeman4646 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 10, 2018, 06:52:54 am »

I bought two boxes of black frames for my 3 nucs that I have coming this year. They have the small cells, I think 4.9mm.
The reason for the black frames is mostly that I have big problem seeing eggs in the new white or very light yellow foundation I started with last year.
It didn't really matter what I did, hold the frames so the sun shines into the cells, magnifying glass or whatever I couldn't see eggs very well if at all.
Of course there must have been eggs, brood kept growing. In the original nuc frames that I started with it was no problem - either they were black plastic or already had darker wax. Seeing eggs in those was easy peasy.
Of course looking through the screen on my suit only made eggs harder to see, maybe this year I'll try to pull off my veil sometimes (maybe I'll have a drink first

) - didn't really have the courage to do it last year. I did however shed my gloves later in the year for most inspections.
After reading what everyone says about those frames being less robust, I guess I'll have to watch I don't break them during inspections.
I've read that the upside is that small cells help to control varroa better. I'm wondering if the small cells on these frames will have any negative affect given most of the nuc frames will likely be with larger cells.
Anyone?

CBT · « **Reply #14 on:** April 10, 2018, 08:27:06 am »

Put the sun to your back and tilt the frame let the sun into the bottom of the cell that may help.

Lburou · « **Reply #15 on:** April 10, 2018, 09:58:29 am »

Also, some veils have larger spaces between the vertical and horizontal constructs of the mesh. Look for a folding veil, they usually have the larger hole size. It makes a big difference. CBT's tip about sun over your shoulder is spot on.

riverbee · « **Reply #16 on:** April 10, 2018, 11:07:15 am »

also try a small flashlight and a hand lens. i sometimes use the flashlight/lens when the sunlight is not in my favor.

Wandering Man · « **Reply #17 on:** April 10, 2018, 11:11:40 am »

Eggs are always hard to see.

treeman4646 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 10, 2018, 11:26:33 am »

Thanks everyone for the replies!

When I first got interested in beekeeping I read a lot and pretty much everything said it's hard to see the eggs. My first populated combs were either black foundation or real dark wax. I had no trouble seeing eggs in those frames, I thought "What are they talking about?" Until she started into the light frames...
I have no trouble seeing very young larvae so I know she was there at least in the 5 or 6 days so it's not a real big deal I guess.
I tried the sun over the shoulder thing, shining a light into the cells, even a magnifying glass.
I think it's my old eyes combined with the mesh combined with the light comb. I don't know...
I'll see if I can have a look at one of the folding veils and see if that helps...
I wear glasses and the eye doc gives me prescriptions with bifocals in them, "For reading..." he says.
Ya, well I can read and tip away on the computer a lot better without em... Taking them off doesn't help seeing light comb eggs either...
It's not like I'm not used to looking at tiny parts and things I do a fair bit of mechanical repairs and I'm often fixing something that's got some real tiny parts and have no problem with that...
Maybe I'll give it a go without the mesh on some peaceful day...
Most of the time last summer the girls were pretty peaceful. The odd sting isn't so bad either...
I was wondering if switching larger cell nucs to small cell foundation is ok...
Seems to me I read something somewhere about not doing it but now I can't find it.
Anyway, Cheers!

robo · « **Reply #19 on:** April 10, 2018, 03:02:53 pm »

I agree with all the other 'negative' comments but will add in addition to be too flexible, they do not work well with frame grips either, at least with the cast aluminum ones which I think are the only ones worth using.

I am strictly buy wooden frame with plastic foundation now. I do have quite a bit of HSC which does not have the issues as other plastic frames, but they are a lot heavier. Unfortunately I don't believe they are available any longer.