Author Topic: Russians ~ Let's Talk  (Read 4143 times)

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Offline Jen

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Russians ~ Let's Talk
« on: January 26, 2018, 12:25:39 pm »
Good Morning  ;D  I am not very schooled on Russians, although I am intrigued with them. There is a beek in our area that wants to raise Russians. My first impression was "Don't place your Russians within 5 miles of My Hives!" But then I thought "Now Jen... the only thing you know about Russians is that they are aggressive bees."

Give me a run down on Russian bees.. um please  ;)

1. Should Russian hives have their own foraging territory? Say like 5 miles radius...

2. What would happen if one of my virgin queens mated with a Russian drone? would they then be considered aggressive muts?

 
There Is Peace In The Queendom

Offline Cuttingedge

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2018, 05:12:57 pm »
I don’t think that Russians are necessarily aggressive. I have a friend that has them in one of his yards. Can they be defensive? Absolutely. After going through his hives with him, I did not notice any clear aggressiveness. I know that it can be a challenge to get them accepted if you are requeening. To fix that problem, he suggested requeening smaller colonies made up mostly of young bees as they are more likely to accept any queen. As far as forage, I don’t have an answer to your question but don’t see why they would have any different requirements.  To your next question, if one of your virgins Mated with one Russian drone, I don’t think that it would make a difference. Virgins mate with many drones. If the drones in the DCA were predominately Russian, it would increase the likelihood of them mating with more Russians. There is evidence to suggest that the drones carry the temperament traits and that it could be passed along to your virgins. The resulting F1 daughters could express this trait. To fix this issue, I flood the DCA with known genetics to keep the heritable traits that I want. A lot of crosses can bring out undesirable traits. Most of those traits often can be reversed with careful breeding. Some traits express themselves in the daughters (F1) and revert back to the desired traits in the Granddaughters (F2).

Offline Sour Kraut

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2018, 06:53:31 pm »
Here's what I know

The 'Russians' from Kelly's are not pure-bred, but hybrids.

I installed two packages about May 8 last year, and they were slow to build up, had to feed them before winter, but that may be because they were installed relatively late.

I'm going to southern MS this spring to pick up two nuc's from each of two different breeders and will put one of each in two widely separated spots, no other colonies with them, and see what happens.


Offline riverbee

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2018, 07:52:45 pm »
jen,
you know i keep russians. i purchase these from a member of the russian honey bee association. anywhere else are hybrids.  have to read the history to understand it. not going into this, but anyone advertising  'russian queens' or 'russian bees' are hybrids or less than what is advertised and only RHBA members have the genetics. i will add, these genetics are being scientifically 'engineered' or mated with drones of different breeds for various reasons.......improved mite and disease resistance, less aggressive, etc........ just as any other breed of bees.
the genetic thing is complicated...........not sure you want the details, i barely understand it.

russians can be aggressive or a little more defensive, but not always, it may be related to an issue going on. russians can be more temperamental to environmental changes. there will be an adjustment to management skills and learning the biology/behavior. they are very good honey makers.

russians don't need their own 'foraging territory'.

yes you would have mutts, not a bad thing.  i have plenty of mutt hives from russian colonies, and allow the majority to requeen themselves, so therefore mutts.  these are the only bees i seem to have less lossess with, less mites/disease problems and consistently produce a good honey crop.
they are what works for me.

i have numerous posts here on the forum about russian bees and how i keep them. just use the search box and type in 'russian' you will find these posts jen. i can take the time to do so if you would like?
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Offline Jen

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2018, 09:26:23 pm »
Hi Riv, appreciate your input. We have a bee club now in our county now, and some beeks are asking about russians, which kicked up my interest as well. But, it has occurred to me since I posted this, that my hives are just so nice and friendly, and over the years I'm having less and less, little by little, mite problems. So I think I'll stay put and keep what working... for now anyway.

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Offline riverbee

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2018, 11:43:10 am »
i think that's a great decision jen!  i am not so sure russians would be a good choice for you. you have neighbors, so i know you have been considerate of them.  also with your droughts and dry weather, you would wind up constantly feeding the bees. r queens shut down in droughts, and don't resume laying until nectar/pollen starts coming in the door.

don't 'fix' what ain't broke!!!!  (or 'fix' it til it is......... :D)

very cool that you have a bee club! 
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Offline Newbee

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2018, 05:04:09 pm »
I placed an order w/ Kelley Bee's today for a Russian package. The girl I talked to claimed they are getting their russian bee's from an apiary in Arkansas who has them genetically tested and works w/ the RHBA (Russian Honeybee breeders Assoc), claims they're pure... was more than the local packages through the club, but I'm hoping their mite resistance and defensive traits help them do better than last year (was robbed out in the fall).
I'll be sure to report back to the board over the summer with how they are doing.

- K
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Offline riverbee

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2018, 06:54:03 pm »
newbee........

that would be coy's honey farm in jonesboro, arkansas. they have two operations, one in arkansas (father and sons), honey, pollination and nucs. the other son is in mississippi, (steven coy) and only does queens.

here is the link to members of the rhba:

Members - Russian Honey Bee Breeders Association

here is a link to an article about russian honey bees from bee culture 2016, good article.  i have also attached the pdf file when the link disappears. update will post when i can compress this file.
 
Bee Culture Russian Honey Bees

a comment newbee, russian honey bees are subject to robbing just as any other breed of bee, so i would take all precautions to prevent losses caused from robbing.
also, don't think you don't need to treat for mites, keep an eye on them. defensive traits? i am not sure i would categorize them as defensive, but they are not italians. educate yourself about their quirks, different from other bees. they can be defensive, or more snarky for many reasons, thus management skills to figure out why. if all is well, the queen laying, no nectar/pollen dearth and you have addressed any other issues, and stay on top of mite problems, you ought to be good to go.

i wish you well and am looking forward to your posts over the summer!
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Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2018, 05:30:39 am »
I placed an order w/ Kelley Bee's today for a Russian package. The girl I talked to claimed they are getting their russian bee's from an apiary in Arkansas who has them genetically tested and works w/ the RHBA (Russian Honeybee breeders Assoc), claims they're pure... was more than the local packages through the club, but I'm hoping their mite resistance and defensive traits help them do better than last year (was robbed out in the fall).
I'll be sure to report back to the board over the summer with how they are doing.

- K

I hope you share your experiences with the forum. In my part of the country, Russians are not common.  There are mostly Italians and some Carnolians.  In the last couple of years I have started keeping Carnolians in addition to Italians.  It's an interesting comparison.
As riverbee suggested, don't expect Russians to be the magical answer to mites, robbing, and other maladies.
Glad you are not giving up on honey bees.

Offline riverbee

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2018, 07:58:03 pm »
"I placed an order w/ Kelley Bee's today for a Russian package. The girl I talked to claimed they are getting their russian bee's from an apiary in Arkansas who has them genetically tested and works w/ the RHBA (Russian Honeybee breeders Assoc), claims they're pure... was more than the local packages through the club, but I'm hoping their mite resistance and defensive traits help them do better than last year (was robbed out in the fall).
I'll be sure to report back to the board over the summer with how they are doing.
- K"


newbee, i receive newsletters and emails from kellys........
according to their website the russian packages are hybrids as are the queens?

Package with Marked Russian Hybrid Queen
description:
"The Russian Hybrid Bee is commonly known to be more mite resistant than the Italian bee. Russian Hybrids are also docile like the Italian.
This package includes Italian bees and a laying marked Russian queen."

Package with Unmarked Russian Hybrid Queen
description:
"The Russian Hybrid bee is commonly known to be more mite resistant than the Italian bee. Russian Hybrids are also docile like the Italian.
This package includes Italian bees and a laying unmarked Russian queen."


so your package consists of italian bees with or without a marked russian hybrid queen?

queens:
Russian Hybrid Queens Unmarked
description:
"These queens are unmarked Russian-Italian hybrid queens."

Russian Hybrid Queen Marked
description:
"These queens are marked Russian-Italian hybrid queens."

i would question what the person at kelleys told you. i am familiar with the history of russian bees being brought into the usa, sale and distribution.
initially these companies or anyone could purchase russian breeder queens. this was essentially cut off and only those members of the rhba continued this line.  after this cut off, what these companies or individuals had was what remained of their stock and/or breeded with other genetic lines, and/or purchased queens from rhba members. so what they had was daughters, daughters of, etc.....

another comment, many packages fail, or the queens fail. having kept russians for a number of years, requeening can be a little on the tricky side (rhba queens) if one is keeping mutt bees or any other breed or even swarm bees, i use a slow release for any requeen.  i am thinking no wonder beeks get frustrated from packages purchased from  companies or individuals who advertise 'russian bees' or 'queens' and are not purchasing directly from the rhba. not saying these packages or lines won't work. just saying i think that when the advertisement is 'russian' it makes me wonder, the claims are sometimes misleading. these are hybrids. beeks are looking for the magic/silver bullet and sometimes think this will be the magic or silver bullet and are/or can be very disappointed, and to be honest.....website claims are less than honest. just my HO.

newbee, i would be interested in hearing about what exactly your package bees/and queens are?  just saying kelley's website says different.
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Offline riverbee

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2018, 07:04:07 pm »
i have attached the bee culture article, november 2016 to my original post #8 on this thread, on russian bees for anyone to download and print off. i was unable to do so initially, at some point the link will disappear and so going forward this article has some great info regarding russian bees.

the pdf file to my post #8 is located here for downloading and printing off:

RUSSIAN HONEY BEES

just go to the bottom of the post and click on the link next to the paperclip for the pdf file. one can either open the file to read it or save to your pc.

also, would like to hear back from you newbee, and your kelly's bees order?  and thanks in advance!
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Offline Newbee

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2018, 09:47:11 am »
Yeppers... Got my hive out of storage (thanks again Slowmodem!), gotta get it cleaned up and ready for April 28th, when I go up to Kentucky to pick the bee's up.
Excited for the trip, as well as the bee's (but someone please, take my credit cards out of my wallet before I go!  :laugh:  )

Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2018, 03:59:20 pm »
Newbee, just remind yourself that there were no shipping costs involved! You actually SAVED money!   :bee:

Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2018, 04:04:11 pm »
Jen did you see rober's post under Pests and Diseases?  https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php?topic=7737.0.  He posted about the Kim and Jim Show.  It's a webinar by Jim Tew and Kim Flottum.  One of their topics is about Russians.  Thought you might be interested.   8)

Offline Newbee

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2018, 06:47:43 pm »
SO today was the day! Slowmodem and I took a ride up to Kelley's Bee's in Kentucky. Beautiful countryside, cheerful and friendly staff, nice little store, too. You could see some of the manufacturing area (not allowed inside, obviously), but a very nice organization. I would do business with them again without hesitation.
Bee's are in the hive, pic shows the (nearly) empty container they shipped the 'package' of bee's in. Interestingly it was entirely plastic, and there was a compartment for the queen cage outside the main container area (so no dropping the queen inside when you try to open it). The food container was also more easily removed than in the wooden-style package crates I've seen/used in the past). Quite improved packaging, wondering how much it added to my cost? ( :D) I don't know where exactly they came from. I was told there is a Russian breeder in the midwest they get them from, that's all I know...



They were a rather quiet on the drive back (~ 4hrs), and fair once I got them installed in the hive, a few didn't take a liking to me, however, and were very persistent about it! Understandable given the travels I guess... hopefully things will be better in a few days when I check on the queen. Hive-top feeder is in place, with food, plenty blooming at the place where they are, too (azalea's nearing the end of their time, other shrubs are just starting). Here's hoping!

And BakersDozen was right, only cost $20 in gas to get up there and back in my little Honda... The $200 worth of hive components? We're going to hide from the wife and tear up the bank statement when it comes, claim credit-card theft if it ever comes up!  :laugh:
(but, I've got everything I need to setup a second hive, now!)

Offline Newbee

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2018, 07:07:10 pm »

newbee, i receive newsletters and emails from kellys........
according to their website the russian packages are hybrids as are the queens?

Ya know, I was so excited while there I forgot all about asking any questions.... wish I'd remembered, maybe I'll follow up w/ an eMail this week and see...

Regardless, the receipt I have from picking them up says purebred marked queen... Is she truly? I dunno. I understand what you're saying however, and have read up on them a little myself. The RHBA is taking the branding of 'russian' bee's pretty seriously however, and I'm going to give Kelley Bee's the benefit of the doubt and say these are RHBA approved "russians". Does that still mean they're mutt's? Honestly don't know. Just hope they do well for me! :D

- Kevin



Offline neillsayers

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2018, 09:35:20 pm »
newbee,

I like your hive art work. How about some better pictures? :)
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Offline Newbee

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2018, 08:03:39 am »
Thanks Neil, my Daughter gets all the credit there. I thought I had posted some last year with the 2 hive bodies assembled. The picture she painted runs the length of both boxes, but I only have the lower one on there now.

Found this one of the hive last year:

https://postimg.cc/image/lrd2inihr/

Offline neillsayers

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2018, 12:52:45 pm »
Now that you mention it, I do recall the pics of her artwork. Old timers stikes again. :)
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Offline riverbee

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Re: Russians ~ Let's Talk
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2018, 10:58:15 pm »
Ya know, I was so excited while there I forgot all about asking any questions.... wish I'd remembered, maybe I'll follow up w/ an eMail this week and see...

Regardless, the receipt I have from picking them up says purebred marked queen... Is she truly? I dunno. I understand what you're saying however, and have read up on them a little myself. The RHBA is taking the branding of 'russian' bee's pretty seriously however, and I'm going to give Kelley Bee's the benefit of the doubt and say these are RHBA approved "russians". Does that still mean they're mutt's? Honestly don't know. Just hope they do well for me! :D
I was told there is a Russian breeder in the midwest they get them from, that's all I know...
- Kevin


kevin, good luck and best of wishes to you.

and on that piece of paper i don't see 'certified rhba'........
was there a certification on the plastic package stamped rhba certified?
yeah, the rhba does does take this pretty seriously considering what these folks have to go through to get certified and accepted into the rhba progam; as do the rest of us who desire rhba certified russian queens and bees.......
just sayin'....... ;D

guess i would want to know who the registered rhba member is they are getting them from in the midwest.  if you want what is on the piece of paper you posted and paid for them, i would want to know which rhba member the bees and queens were obtained from and when...... and why their website says different.  ?

there are only 2 registered rhba members in the midwest, one in iowa and a new one in indiana.  i do know the member in iowa. he does not sell packages, only nucs, and very, very limited queens, and they are not available this time of year. so i would be asking questions. 
that's just me.
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