Cell size ?

[Mikey N.C.]

Have been reading about cell size.  Some say natural cell size is better,  some say it doesn't matter.  I think they make small cell size foundations ?
Would like to hear everyone's opinion.  Thanks

[Wandering Man]

My vote is that it doesn't matter.  The bees can ignore the impressions made in wax foundation.

Look at the variance in cell size from this comb:








On edit, my mistake.  This was not built on foundation.  Nevertheless, the bees built different size cells in the same comb.

[tecumseh]

imho there is NO such thing as natural cell size.  Why is it when you see someone say 'natural' you seem to know they are on to one form of scam or another?  As EVIDENCE... if you look at the data collected on bees in Europe early on you may notice that there was a variation in size of the bees and in the size of the physical characteristics of the bees.  And we raise mutts here which is a blend of all these types.  Now that we know more about bees and nutrition we also know there is a seasonal variation in the size of the bees... which is basically the content of 'fat bee, skinny bee'. 

More in regards to the rhetoric of the 'small cell' crowd... much of their story line is a false narrative who only purpose is to lead folks to a false conclusion.



 

[Bakersdozen]

I heard Jerry Hayes (In the Classroom, ABJ) speak yesterday.  In regards to varroa mites, Hayes says small cell makes no difference.

[Lburou]

There are people who swear by 'small cell' size, advocating that varroa don't so as well in smaller cells.  Lots of controversy over this philosophy.  But, on the main, there are fewer advocates nowadays and there is no science supporting small cell that I know of.  Bees will make the cell size they want according to their immediate needs, whether it is foundationless, as above, or with foundation.

The size of cells on the first foundations was determined a long time ago by measuring cells of the day. That plus a desire for a larger bee saw some effect on foundation cell size (i.e., from 5.1 per inch to 5.4 per inch) -these numbers vary according to the source you read.  Most of the controversy over actual "natural" cell size extant at the time is a result of different ways of measuring the cells.  Which way did a given scientist/foundation maker use to record cell size 100 years ago?  Nobody really knows for sure, but there have been some loud discussions about it.  JMO  :-)

P.S.  I typed this response last night before Tec responded, but was interrupted and did not post until now.  :-)

P.P.S.  I bristle anytime I'm reading about bees and see a guru with a more "natural" way of doing things. 

[Lburou]

Oh!  Just one more thought.  As brood comb is used for successive generations of bees, the accumulation of silk from metamorphosis inside the cells accumulates to make the inside of the cells a bit smaller with each generation.  So, over time, you will get smaller cells anyway. 

[Mikey N.C.]

Very interesting,  One article i read , said thats how they became treatment free.

[tecumseh]

a Lee snip..
Bees will make the cell size they want according to their immediate needs, whether it is foundationless, as above, or with foundation.

since my bias is often times viewed thru an economic lens I also think available resources is another significant variable in cell size.  Lot of resources and bees and the bee quickly transform worker cells into drone cells.  Few resources and the bee make very few drone size cells.

As to the history of cell size... all of the measurements on cell size were done so long ago that you might also want to question the accuracy of the measurement relative to how things are done today.  When removable frames became more common and not long after that the creation of foundation, the manufactures did play around a bit with cell size. This evidently was a very time and technique involved process since you had to have a pretty clever machinist to make up the dies to roll out the foundation.  NO ONE was trying to create a larger bee but they were concerned about what foundation size bees would be accept and that which they would not accept*.

In science there has to be some at least hypothesized MECHANISM to make you believe something works. As a side note the small cell fad seems to have originated in Arizona where africanized bees are more common.  These bees being somewhat small also create natural comb that is smaller < I use to have a scale given to me by the former state bee inspector here that would measure cell size to give you some clue between European and africanized bees in feral nest.

*At least one person I sometime converse with via the net tell me he attempted small cell and about 1/3 of the packages he bought would accept the small cell foundation but the remaining 2/3 would not. 

[Bakersdozen]

  Lot of resources and bees and the bee quickly transform worker cells into drone cells.  Few resources and the bee make very few drone size cells.

Also needed is a strong colony to produce drones.

[eltalia]

More to just add "the norm" from Down Under then anything else - all foundation supplied
is what you guys Up There know as "small cell"... just "wax foundation" to us.
And moot anyway 'cos as Lburou points out a few generations in and emerging bees are gonig
to differ in size anyway. In running our long hives you get what they give you anyway and
provided its straight well formed who are we to argue with them.

As for "natural"..?... if it's got wings and a heartbeat you won't get much more Natural, hey.