Author Topic: A NPR article on backyard beekeeping  (Read 5537 times)

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Offline Chip Euliss

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A NPR article on backyard beekeeping
« on: August 15, 2016, 03:26:45 pm »
Chip

Offline CBT

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Re: A NPR article on backyard beekeeping
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2016, 04:02:57 pm »
That's good.

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: A NPR article on backyard beekeeping
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2016, 05:02:06 pm »
Excellent article and very much true and to the point.
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Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: A NPR article on backyard beekeeping
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2016, 10:40:41 pm »
Thanks for posting, chip.  I think the online mite monitoring project looks interesting. 
The reader comments are maddening, so I guess the article targeted the right group...non-beekeepers that need educating.

Offline Nugget Shooter

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Re: A NPR article on backyard beekeeping
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2016, 09:53:15 am »
Good read, and true. I think for begging beekeepers treating is a good idea and I use OAV here. Natural beekeeping is practiced successfully by many from what I have learned, but having years of experience first may be very important to fully understand and employ this method...
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Offline Lburou

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Re: A NPR article on backyard beekeeping
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2016, 12:02:36 pm »
A point of view that I agree with, glad to see it out there Chip.

"Natural", "Organic", "Treatment Free",  are all buzzwords around which people gather with the zeal of religion.   There is acrimony within the cloistered circles using these terms, who knows what they really mean?....We are all natural, organic, treatment free beekeepers at heart, but some of us are pragmatists too.
Lee_Burough
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Offline tecumseh

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Re: A NPR article on backyard beekeeping
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2016, 12:57:42 pm »
and if you are skilled enough at beekeeping and recognizing the disease and pathogens of bees I would say the question as stated (treatment or non treatment) is basically a FALSE CHOICE.  That is why not both?  Of course the commercial person with hundreds of hives who may 'randomly test' and then tends to treat all (no matter the outcome of the test) are imho as much of the problem as the 'I don't treat novice'.  Both are imho fundamental mistakes in rearing and breeding livestock. 

if you could (which you cannot) wade thru the data of hive losses my guess is the death loss from amateur and commercial pollinator is likely about the same.  Do they typically die for the same reason and is it ALWAYS varroa???  my best guess is no.  anyway my point is yearly loss may really mean little when you point of discussion is a honeybee. 

show me the data (that is the evidence) that a few hives in someone's back yard is infesting literally thousands of hives stack one on top the other of some commercial beekeeper across the road.  meanwhile the commercial fellow who may have 100 hives in a yard doesn't even consider that this density may be a larger problem in regards to varroa than the novice keeping 3 hives across the road.  occum's razor would also suggest there are other and simply and more plausible explanations that this strategy of 'blaming someone else' for your own error in judgement.

personally I will treat anything under my care when it is sick or showing signs of suffering from pathogens.  treating all (with no evidence you should do so) is not only wasteful but also lead to an ultimate consequence that you don't want either.

ps... if you have bees that are highly treated I would just as soon you not set them up here anywhere near my 'no treatment bees' and ruin the efforts I am pursuing and if the data here is correct being somewhat successful in terms of creating a hardier bee that will tolerate varroa without all this assistance.
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Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: A NPR article on backyard beekeeping
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2016, 02:42:14 pm »
Points well taken Tech and, speaking from experience, I've inherited my share of maladies (parasites and poor genetics) from commercial beekeepers as my outyards are out of flight range of backyards and any bees they may contain.  I check my mite loads before I treat and I suspect that most beekeepers who watch their bottomline check their mite loads before treating.  It doesn't make economic sense to do otherwise.  Then, there are beekeepers, commercial and private, that treat as a matter of routine.  We all know that chemical overuse can lead to resistance but some folks do it anyway.  Many chronic users think that SCIENCE (the noun) will bail them out with a new tool!  In my opinion, it's most likely a problem from those new to the game or others (including experienced) that don't understand the concept of resistance or take the time to check and just assume they have a problem.  Natural selection would certainly work this out but it would be at great expense to bees and the crops that depend on them if everyone went treatment free.  Maybe it's me, or maybe it's because I know Marla, but I'm sure her message isn't to treat blindly or that all backyard beekeepers spread their mites--I think her view is to get folks to understand the issue and to treat when necessary.  You don't want inherit undesirable traits from you neighbors (nor do I) and that fits with the articles tone on sharing mites with your neighbors.  The 2 efforts are not mutually exclusive. 
Chip

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: A NPR article on backyard beekeeping
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2016, 04:21:19 pm »
I think I can see the point of the link very clearly because of where I live..    Close to Maharishi International University, and all of the GREEN types that university pulls in.

   I have had requests to build hives with no glue or metal nails..  Requests for ROUND hives, and CONSTANTLY have requests for bees that I have never treated.. Every year I get requests for treatment free bees to pollinate their organic fruits and vegetables...
   They capture "Swarms" because they are feral and have never been treated...  (We are not going to go there) and then call me to find out what is happening when they start to die..
   MANY of them are absolutists. They absolutely refuse to treat in any way shape or form that is not naturally initiated by the bees themselves...
   Some few of them, have pulled their heads down out of the clouds far enough to listen and heed my advice, and are now in their second or third year with the SAME bees, instead of finding more every spring..   
   As the article states, these folks are creating a problem..   Many of them are quite wealthy, and will Order bees that are "guaranteed" treatment free and mite resistant.. only to have the guys hives down the road turn into Mite Bombs...    A treatment to bring their mite loads back under control and their bees would have a fighting chance. They typically prefer to let nature take its course...      These folks are the entire reason I wrote up an entire page on "Natural Beekeeping", and have now even linked this article.

http://www.outyard.net/natural-beekeeping.html
   
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Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: A NPR article on backyard beekeeping
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2016, 07:32:29 pm »
Nice write-up Lazy.  Obviously, I'm in agreement and I do treat my bees for maladies but I try to use soft methods where possible.  I do think that many people new to beekeeping get the wrong idea about treatment-free bees so an article like this is useful in my view.  I also think that NPR was a good outlet because many of the treatment-free folks tend to follow their articles.  I think another concept that is overstated is organic honey.  Although beekeepers introduce chemicals in the hive, the flight radius of 2.5 miles means the bees are exposed to a great variety of chemicals, especially agricultural pesticides.  There are good peer-reviewed papers out there that document the contamination.  That said, I think the list of organic producers should be very small.

If it makes you feel any better, the same mindset is in many of our professional wildlife agencies and organizations.  Years ago, we planted certain plant species to benefit wildlife and many were not native.  Now, the trend has reversed and most agencies exclusively promote "native" plants and even cultivars of native species that do (or did) best in specific areas.  Sounds great and I mostly used native species when I restored the grassland on the land I own--but I have nonnatives too.  Problem is that many of the nonnative plants are invasive, or are considered so, and intensive herbicide and other controls are used to get rid of the "bad" plants and replace them with "good" natives.  Sounds good but the truth is that the lands we try to restore aren't the way they were when natives dominated the landscape prior to European settlement.  Soils have eroded, we have tons of nutrients where they weren't once upon a time and natives aren't always the plants best adapted to a particular piece of land as a consequence.  We spend LOTS of money, kill some good plants with our herbicides even with good intentions (including those that benefit pollinators), and generally have poor or marginal success.  I think the focus should be on what we want a specific piece of land to deliver and then use the plants best suited to achieve our objectives.  We should give natives priority but using a native that won't work or is a poor fit on a specific piece of land is a waste of money and it is poor management.  We need to do the best we can with what we have left and seek ways to improve it over time, rather than trying to go back to original plant communities simply because they are native--we need to ask what are we trying to do and how do we best achieve it.  When I was working, I'd often hear a biologists say they wanted to get rid of a particular species of plant when riding around looking at the land they were managing--I always asked why and the reason (99% of the time) was that it wasn't native!  Neither are we was always my response!  Don't get me wrong, I'm all for controlling certain plants but just because they aren't native isn't a good reason in my view.  I prefer a balanced approach and that's what you're suggesting for treating bees--I couldn't agree more!
Chip

Offline tecumseh

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Re: A NPR article on backyard beekeeping
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2016, 08:17:00 pm »
nicely said Chip and I can appreciate where you are coming from LazyBkr.

personally I am waiting on some real data on 'varroa bombs' before I categorize that as anything more than empty speculation.

I will add here that ALL of the treatment remedies may have various degree of effectiveness and when 'overused' may lead to honey contamination and potential comb contamination.  + Some potential to kill the hive outright if misapplied or applied at the wrong time!  At some level when detected by the food safety people these treatments will likely become highly regulated and even perhaps banned < which now seem to be the case with TM.  Comb contamination on the other hand has longer term and often overlook but costly side impact on the honeybee hive's health < and the research is getting pretty conclusive concerning this problem.  One bit of data from the honey bee health initiative suggest to me that thymol is quickly approaching being overused... so this 'overuse' notion of mine is not just 'natural' vs 'chemical' treatment.

Without a doubt some forms of treatment I would be more likely to use than others.  Some treatments I would definitely avoid altogether.

There is a downside to going the no treatment route and I would especially discourage anyone trying to raise a commercial honey crop or who needed to comply with a pollination contract to venture too far down that path.   I also suspect lots of set down northern beekeeper may have to consider treatment just to maintain population over an extended winter with various maladies (varroa, tracheal mites and nosema a and c).  Personally I don't preach treatment or no treatment to potential novice beekeeper but I do try to emphasize that they do need to 'test'.  Test, test, test is something I do try and get the students at the bee lab to reinforce in their extension related presentations.

I SUSPECT a lot of novice beekeeper who want to go the no treatment route make two critical mistakes 1) the don't obtain initial stock from a known non treatment source (it is now a marketing slogan) and 2) they don't test for mites and then essentially ignore any potential problem.  If they only have one hive in their little gardens then likely they will fill no financial pain when they replace the hive come next spring. 

     

Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: A NPR article on backyard beekeeping
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2016, 08:59:41 pm »
Very true Tech and most of the no-treatment ads were designed more to catch new beekeepers than get good bees.  Plus, so much of buying bees depends on the availability of no-treatment drones in breeding areas so it's a tough hill to climb.  I do like the east Texas MN Hygienic bees because the "cartel" tries to keep non-hygienic hives away........or so I'm told :) 
Chip

Offline tecumseh

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Re: A NPR article on backyard beekeeping
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2016, 03:54:26 pm »
as you know I have a good deal of our friends minnesota hygienic stock in my own operation.  I added this to my bweaver stock when I decide to curtail the use of tm... when I made that decision I looked at it pretty much as insurance.  Adding this also added some genetic diversity which I think is helpful... but certainly the hygienic behavior to keep a clean brood nest is without a doubt imho beneficial.   

one primary reason I gave up treatments (which I am now considering revising) is that my good neighbor's down in Navasota queen mating yards and a couple of my own yards overlapped.  A poor manners error which I have had to ask forgiveness for on at least one occasion.  drones are of course pivotal in the quest to breed a better bee.

Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: A NPR article on backyard beekeeping
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2016, 06:36:40 pm »
I agree Tech and appreciate the statement that drones are pivotal to breeding better queens--being haploid has to come with some benefits :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  I have MN Hygienics, Pol Line VSHs, hygienic Cardovans (red heads) originally from Glenn's, hygienic Carniolans (also originally from Glenn's), and an Italian line that has shown good hygienic traits in my apiaries.  I try to keep my gene pool as diverse as my retirement funds :)

Hope you don't get too much water.  It's pretty amazing how much total precip fell out of that system.  When we came home last week, I had my wipers on high, flashers on and drove 45 mph or less for 80 miles or so from New Orleans north.
Chip

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: A NPR article on backyard beekeeping
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2016, 09:01:56 pm »
Well said both of you.
   I have always tried to add resistant stock every year. VSH Gold, MN Hygenic, etc, etc, etc...   They have ALL failed..  not just barely failed, but failed spectacularly...   The Waynes bees I have now are doing better than anything else I have ever ordered, but I am not sure they will make the winter with the mite load they have..   The only thing I will say for them, is that the mite load does not appear to be Increasing exponentially like the mite loads of the other resistant bees...
   Maybe the STOCK I got was too dilute, and maybe... the other two beekeepers in the area (who now buy bees from me) did not treat and their hives were overwhelmed..   Because of that I cannot SAY that the stock I got was garbage.. in a better location, they may have done perfectly fine....


    I think if you can manage mite levels, be it through resistance, or soft treatments etc...   Then you have something to teach me, and others. If you have to buy bees every year, then you have a lot to learn from me, and others.   There is no place for an Absolutist in there.
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Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: A NPR article on backyard beekeeping
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2016, 09:51:56 pm »
I try to replace nearly all of my queens every year, mostly as insurance against poorly mated queens that may run out of sperm at times when their loss would hurt honey production or impact winter survival.  I know that some will supersede but they supersede using young larvae from my purchased queens so my genetic investment isn't overly compromised (at least that's what I tell myself!).  My yards overlap mostly my other yards so the drones mostly come from my bees.  I haven't had issues with poor performance of hygienic stock--they've all done very well.  I am careful to get my stock from breeders who have drone mother colonies around them, either ones they personally own or from other beekeepers who have similar or complementary stock.  Don't know anything about Wayne's bees but it would be good to try them and get some idea of whether they are hygienic, groomers or mite biters like the stock from Purdue.  I strongly feel that genetics is our best path forward but treatments is part of my management because my focus is on honey production and pollination.  For example, if a colony of bees is VSH hygienic, you still have lower recruitment since the mite infected larvae are tossed out the front door and hence never enter the workforce.  Groomers also expend energy "managing" their mites that could be applied to other tasks.  For my management objectives, I feel that keeping mite loads low benefits me and the bees.  I use the best queens available from breeders but help them along as best I can.  If I were a breeder, treatments would hinder progress to develop resistant stock, whether hygienic, groomers, or mite biters.  All that said, I do plan to downsize before too much longer and hope to find some time to select and breed queens that fit my management regime.  When that happens, my treatment philosophy may change a little--we'll see :)
Chip

Offline vvand111

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Re: A NPR article on backyard beekeeping
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2016, 10:29:58 am »
Thank you Chip, tech and lazy  great discussion and You guys have enlightened me in a number of areas and thought process. 

Thank you

Offline neillsayers

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Re: A NPR article on backyard beekeeping
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2016, 03:11:03 pm »
food for thought
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