Author Topic: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup  (Read 5458 times)

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Offline Jen

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1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« on: October 27, 2016, 01:44:38 pm »
The last two weeks we've had too much wind and rain for me to get into my hives and check for stores, and more of this weather coming steadily. I'm feeling the need to feed. What is the difference between 1cup sugar 1cup water, as opposed to 2cups sugar 1cup water, when feeding in the fall?
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Offline Perry

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2016, 04:49:41 pm »
2 to 1 in the fall, 1 to 1 in the spring!
Are you saying your hives are light?
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Offline Jen

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2016, 05:40:58 pm »
I was in the process of adding full frames of stored honey back into the hives and nucs about 3 weeks ago. All of the hives and nucs were about 70% full of honey. I do have some more frames to add as soon as I get a weather break. So yes they are light at the moment. The bees haven't been able to forage much these last 3 weeks, and all the rain I'm sure has washed out of anything blooming.

We are pretty much in winter mode early here in upper northern Calif
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Offline tedh

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2016, 07:34:58 pm »
Hey Jen!  Seems I've heard one reason for heavy syrup (2 to 1) in the fall is it dries down quicker, less moisture in the hive over winter.  Let's see what others have to say.
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Offline Riverrat

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2016, 08:30:13 pm »
1:1 will stimulate brood rearing as the bees think there is a flow on.  2:1 is thiicker and closer to honey than the 1:1  bees will move it down to back fill the brood nest getting ready for winter.  best way to judge if you have enough stores is to heft one end of the hive to see if it is heavy.  A hive 70 percent full of honey should be a pretty heavy hive if this is the case you should be good to go as is
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Offline Knucs

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2016, 07:49:10 pm »
Yes, 2:1 in fall, i believe cause they still need to remove some moisture from it, prevents fermenting, then cap it, which does take some time. If they were to try that on 1:1, would take a lot longer.
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Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2016, 11:07:11 pm »
I think the ratio is based on weight versus volume.  When I mix 2:1 syrup (just made 450 gallons), I add 100 gallons of water (800 lbs), heat it up, add 1600 lbs of sugar and spin it till its clear.  The syrup you make should weigh about the same as honey (12 lbs per gallon), so 800 + 1600 = 2,400 lbs or about 200 gallons.  I also add about a cup of citric acid to the mix to help break the sugar down to a form that is less costly for the bees to use (physiologically) because it can be used pretty much as is.  Table sugar is sucrose and it is a disaccharide formed by the monosaccharides glucose and fructose; breaking the sugar molecule down from sucrose to glucose and fructose reduces the time and physiological expense of the bees doing it themselves.  You can buy organic food grade citric acid on ebay for cheap.
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Offline Jen

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2016, 11:40:17 pm »
Ahhh Chip, now your getting too tech on me. But I understand what you are saying.
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Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2016, 11:44:57 pm »
The volume works out too; it's just tough for me to estimate (especially to measure) the volume of sugar.  Converting to lbs is easier.  In my case, I add 32, 50 lb sacks of sugar and call it good ;D
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Offline Jen

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2016, 12:03:41 am »
For those of us who don't have a large apiary like you, I have three 2 stack hives and five nucs, I think it's easier to fill the pint/quart mason jar 2/3 full of sugar, add boiling water, stir until it's clear, put on lids, Wah Lah   ;D
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2016, 08:50:21 am »
IMHO I think a lot of it is just beekeeping myth passed down.. Some folks feed 5:3 year round and don't worry about the 1:1 or 2:1 brood rearing vs storage issue...

Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2016, 09:30:31 pm »
There's a fair amount of witch craft in most everything we do, especially when in comes  to specific ratios.  That said, there is some rhyme and reason to the suggested ratios that should be considered.  Heavier syrup, especially if it's been inverted , is less costly from a physiological perspective for the bees to process and store in the comb.  Feeding heavy syrup certainly gets it stored in the comb sooner and that's a real benefit in a place like North Dakota, especially when there are limited days warm enough in fall for the bees to break cluster and concentrate and invert a more dilute sugar syrup.  In the spring, the benefit to the lighter syrup is that it, on a per unit basis, "crowds" the space available and hence encourages the bees to draw comb to make more space; the downside is that it will ferment if you feed it when there's LOTS of nectar flowing and the bees don't tend to it in time.  As with most things in life, and in bees, timing is everything and there are important seasonal and geographical considerations that beekeepers should consider to maximize success.  Will the bees turn down a syrup because it's a little light or a little heavy?  We know the answer; the key is providing what will optimize the benefit at a specific time of season for a specific geographic locale.
Chip

Offline sc-bee

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2016, 09:10:24 am »
  In the spring, the benefit to the lighter syrup is that it, on a per unit basis, "crowds" the space available and hence encourages the bees to draw comb to make more space;

Or cause swarming  :o

Offline Lburou

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2016, 01:27:20 pm »
Chip I appreciate your indepth answers and pick out new details from them all the time. 

As you consider timing and proportions when feeding sugar syrup, how do those same factors to affect queen performance?  Does feeding sugar syrup influence the queen's laying without protein?  What about feeding protein without syrup?  Are there exceptions?

I suspect everything you do pretty directly provides impetus for the queen to lay at the max.  :)

Added:  In your view, is inverting the syrup that big of a help for the bees?
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Offline Mikey N.C.

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2016, 02:37:21 pm »
And does the pollen  patties plus sugar syrup , influence the queen's decision ? Or is one by its self used in different situations ?

Offline Mikey N.C.

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2016, 02:57:45 pm »
 I meant to ask protein or pollen patties

Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2016, 03:17:53 pm »
Adding syrup, whether light or heavy, can be beneficial or not based on when, where and what's going on in the hive and in the surrounding landscape.  Beekeepers who can manipulate their hives with that understanding and knowledge tend to have good bees year-after-year.  Drawing comb isn't without consequences and swarming can be an issue if you don't provide enough space at the right time--it's certainly a balancing act and every beekeeper has swarms; trick is to have as few as possible.  Lee, I do believe that feed and queen performance are related and I tend to err on the protein side when I'm trying to maximize brood production.  For example this fall, I first fed patties early because I had lots of space for egg laying and the hives were heavy with honey.  These would be the hives with LOTS of bees that consume lots of food so they open up comb fairly quick.  They can be deceiving too because many of them will die from old age so getting those next brood cycles is important, especially for wintering or for strong pollination hives in February.  After feeding the sub, I tip the hives and gave the light ones a little syrup.  You can gauge the strength of the hive based on the rate that they throw wax paper out the front door (I wrap my sub in wax paper).  Right now, the brood is pretty much gone, so I'm adding syrup to get the weight up to carry them till I get to work them in January.  On that trip, my goal is to ramp up brood production for almond pollination and I will follow the same basic regime.  By January, the comb should open up from bees eating the syrup stores so the same basic routine.  We'll check mites and vaporize at the start of the trip if needed, then add 2 lbs of patty and follow that with syrup.  We'll vaporize at the end of the week, if needed and head home.  I think one of the problems that folks have with low production of winter bees is that hives tend to get honey bound and the bees have basically no place to lay; winter bees are really important and the key to having that hive survive till spring.  Late in the year (fall) so not as much concern about swarming.  Adding syrup then would be a poor choice; adding extra drawn frames would be a better option.  We've all had honey bound hives in fall; small clusters and tons of honey.  Usually don't make it because they lack critical mass of winter bees and they are easy targets for robbing, especially in California holding yards where there are thousands of hives in fairly close proximity to one another.  As silly as it seems, I buy those huge colored thumb pins with heads about the size of a dime.  Then, as I'm going through the hives adding pollen sub, I'll mark the lid of hives that need some special attention (e.g., add comb, feed me now, etc) with a unique color.  That makes it easier for me to keep track of the hives and provide treatments based on the needs of individual hives.

Inverting sugar takes time and energy by the bees.  Many commercial folks use HFCS because it adds more weight to the hive than plain old sugar (it's also more convenient but I believe plain old sugar is healthier) .  That's because the bees have to expend energy to invert sugar so part of the syrup is used as fuel for that process.
Chip
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Offline Mikey N.C.

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2016, 05:17:58 pm »
Is protein and pollen patties the same ? Or is protein patties. Grease patties ?
Thanks for info.  We've had some boxes Q has moved up , left bottom empty sounds interesting. We'll defiantly use if appropriate in our climate.

Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2016, 05:37:46 pm »
Yep Mikey, when I say protein, I'm talking about pollen substitute.  They do make several different types of patties (winter patties, etc) but the only ones I use are the ones highest in protein since I'm using them to boost brood production.  Different companies have their own mix and there are some good ones out there, but I just buy it by the bag and mix it with a little syrup in a cement mixer.  I've buying UltraBee from Mann Lake since they are fairly close to me but there are many other good ones I'm sure.  In California last year, I bought NutraBee from Keith Jarrett in California; I really liked how the bees performed with his mix but he's too far for me to buy from him since his is already pre-miixed and ready to go in the hive.  I take care of the carbs for the bees with the syrup.
Chip
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Offline Mikey N.C.

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Re: 1:1 syrup vs 2:1 syrup
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2016, 06:01:19 pm »
Thanks for info.  What I'm asking in a small apiary in late August.early September if we have Q move up and leaves the bottom box empty ,will patties activate Q to start laying ? We are still in the 60°f during the day ?