Worldwide Beekeeping

Beekeeping => Do-It-Yourself Plans and Prints => Topic started by: omnimirage on November 17, 2017, 12:21:47 am

Title: Extractor decisions
Post by: omnimirage on November 17, 2017, 12:21:47 am
I've been using the crush and strain method, and I'm finding that the bees make honey faster than I can strain it. It's time to acquire an extractor!

I'm not sure if it'd be best for me to go to the hives and switch out honeyframes with empty frames, then spin at home. If I did it this way, how should I then store all of those sticky honey frames? The other option would be to take the extractor out with me and spin in my apiary site. Doing it this way would mean I'd end up camping. If I did that, could I tie an extractor to the roof rack of my car, or would I need to take a trailer with me or maybe even buy myself a ute/van?

If I took one out with me, would I need a mechanical one, or might it be feasible to run an electric one still without access to a power grid? Would using a hand one take too much time for someone who has 40-100 hives?

Does the frame amount that it can spin matter much? I'm not sure if some numbers are more effective than others.

How successful have people been who've built their own extractor? Are the professionally made ones much more effective? I have a friend who said he'd help me build one, he has an engine to motorise it and it seems simple enough to do though it's a bit beyond my skills. I see that one can get stainless steel mesh to build into baskets to hold the frames. One can then attach the baskets to a rod that sits on something that can rotate... a ballbearing? Then attach that to the sides of a stainless steel drum and install a honeygate underneath, attach it to the engine. Does all the metal, the rod, and nuts, have to be stainless steel for it to be food grade? What kind of things could I use for the drum? Would an oil barrel work?
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: Perry on November 17, 2017, 06:34:33 am
Lots to answer:

First, I think that extracting in the field would be a no-go for most folks, the bee activity would make it unbearable fast.
Have enough honey supers that you can simply switch out a full one with an empty. More equipment but well worth it.
40 to 100 hives? I would definitely advise you to buy an electric one, a hand crank mechanical would be brutal with that many hives. The time it would take to design and build one could be spent doing what you really want to be doing, managing your colonies. I run a 20 frame radial for 100 hives and it works just fine.
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: Bakersdozen on November 17, 2017, 09:42:41 pm
I would use nothing but stainless steel.  40-100 hives?  Electric for sure.
I don't approve of the crush and strain method.  Your bees have to start all over building comb.  That precious time could have been collecting honey and storing it into existing comb.  That means more honey for you!
I have to agree with Perry.  The time spent designing and building an extractor could be spent working your bees.
Are you an engineer or a beekeeper?   ;)
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: omnimirage on November 17, 2017, 11:43:11 pm
Well 100 is more the max I can see myself ever having. I currently have 25 hives. I've done some research and I'm rather blown away by how expensive they are to buy. Holding less than 8 frames seems like not enough. Heck, I'm not sure but even 8 frames seems like a low number, at least 9 frames can do a single super in one go. 8-9 frame spinner will cost me about $1300-1500, if I want to do more 12-20 frames then I need to add a good another $1000 on top. Being a frugal person I'm really reluctant to spend $2000-3000 here, that's a very large proportion of my savings, but I do wonder if the 8-9 frame spinners will be good for me in the longrun.

I don't really know what to look for in a spinner. One concern that I have, is some of my supers have deep honey frames, and some have medium honeyframes. Will I be able to get a spinner that can spin both deeps and mediums?

I've done some internet searching and looked at every extractor available to purchase that's within country. I did some brief searching for overseas products, but they were pretty pricey and I figure the freight would be enormous.

Here are the midrange electric spinners:

http://beekeeping.iwoohoo.com.au/electric-honey-extractors-for-bee-hives/9-frame-electric-honey-extractor-premium-grade/

I'm not sure what radial is, but I don't believe this is a radial extractor; does that matter much? It also doesn't seem to have reserve spinning abilities. This 8 frame one is from the same company:

http://beekeeping.iwoohoo.com.au/electric-honey-extractors-for-bee-hives/8-frame-electric-extractor/

It's a little more costly but does reverse spin and is radial; it looks like it spins a lot faster as well. Will it being 8 frame be an inconvenience compared to 9?

This one is radial doesn't specify if it reverses:

https://www.mydeal.com.au/premium-9-frame-radial-electric-honey-extractor

And then there's this one, I'm aversive to buying it though because the company screwed me around with a beesuit that I bought from them:

https://www.beekeepinggear.com.au/product-page/electric-honey-extractor-eight-frames


I found this:

http://www.beesource.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/20frext.pdf

I'm not sure how good the final product will be and really unsure where to find a suitable drum for it.
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: Bakersdozen on November 18, 2017, 06:25:41 am
omni, the first 2 extractors appear to be out of stock. 
Your choices there maybe limited compared to other parts of the world. Perhaps another method of acquiring an extractor is to buy used? How about a crank extractor and hiring a strong young man?  ;D I can't imagine using crush and strain or a hand crank extractor with 25 hives.  We are exhausted using a hand crank with 8 hives!
Or if you can build a good extractor you might be able to sell them to other beekeepers!
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: Perry on November 18, 2017, 06:29:16 am
If you buy a radial extractor, which all of those appear to be, you do not need to worry about reverse spinning. Both sides of the frames are extracted regardless of direction of spin.
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: omnimirage on November 18, 2017, 07:26:20 am
They are out of stock but I figure they'd be able to get more. Apparently there's not many options in Australia, I'll spend some time looking at overseas options. I looked for used ones, they were all overpriced bad hand ones which mostly hold just a few frames. I've been informed that the first and last option aren't worthwhile.

Good to know about the spinning!
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: tedh on November 18, 2017, 08:00:02 am
Somewhere there is a thread started by Blueblood regarding an 18/9 ( I think) electric radial extractor for $1,000.00.  Might not be available to you there or as you said the shipping cost could be quite heavy.  That being said it will cost nothing to look into it.  If only someone could post a link to Blueblood's thread.  Good luck!  Ted
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: apisbees on November 18, 2017, 11:51:34 am
first #1 & 3  as well as 2 & 4 are the same extractors.
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: omnimirage on November 18, 2017, 06:30:53 pm
I looked for Blueblood's thread but couldn't find anything.

huh it's not obvious to me that 2 & 4 are the same. Someone told me that #2 is a very very cheap model. So I'm guessing then my options are to build, spend an extra thousand or two on something bigger and better, or buy overseas. I'm a bit daunted by how expensive these are.
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: tedh on November 18, 2017, 07:23:31 pm
It was a lyson extractor.  I found the post but don't know how to add the link here.  The title involved "mann lake 8/4(?) frame extractor".  If you search Bluebloods posts you'll find it.  Ted
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: CBT on November 18, 2017, 10:30:50 pm
Radial means the basket you put the frames (any size) in is shaped like a pizza cut into slices. The bottom of the frame goes in pointing at the center and the spinning throws the honey out both sides at the same time.
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: Lburou on November 18, 2017, 10:36:59 pm
 Here (https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php?topic=7125.msg90452#msg90452) is Blueblood's thread about extractors.  HTH   :)
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: tedh on November 19, 2017, 01:21:37 pm
Thanks Lee, I was hoping someone would do that.  Ted
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: apisbees on November 20, 2017, 07:23:25 pm
I would think that you could get one out of China, Taiwan, An Asian country fairly reasonable. It will depend on Australia custom and duty fees.
12 frame $550.00 ran shipping cost from China to south Australia $310.00= $860.00 USD = $1,040.00 AUD plus any import fees and taxes. I didn't see any large extractor that run 9 or 10 deeps and 18 to 20 mediums. they all have individual baskets for each frame with support wires on the basket sides. most likely to protect the frames from blowing out if the beekeepers go foundation less and have not wired their frames. Which I think could be the case in parts of China and Asia
https://honneyspeed.en.alibaba.com/product/60705042655-805346329/Hot_sale_12_frames_Electric_Honey_extractor.html?spm=a2700.8304367.prewdfa4cf.91.2e6dd53eylkx0Y

Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: omnimirage on November 22, 2017, 05:00:55 pm
I looked into that thread thanks.

Good find apisbees! Pretty darn good price for a 12 frame spinner. Lots of people have told me specifically to not buy a Chinese extractor, could that one have some quality issues? In what way would one notice a difference in quality with these?

Seeing that price on freight has me thinking that importing a quality one from USA or whatever is probably not financially viable.
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: apisbees on November 22, 2017, 07:46:36 pm
The main different is the thickness of the stainless steel thinner stainless could dent easier if you knock something into it. I have seen a few of the China built ones and the build and quality look fine to me. They use a gear drive motor and a variable frequency drive to control the Hrz to control the motor speed so it does not put an extra load on the motor when running at slower speeds. Even if you bought a European extractor the motor and speed control are most likely built in Asia some place.
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: Lburou on November 22, 2017, 10:31:57 pm
Tech support, warranty support and parts availability are important issues to consider as well.  Not being in Australia to ferret out these issues with you makes it hard to offer useful help...One would hope that used extracting equipment would come on the market near you.    O:-)
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: apisbees on November 23, 2017, 05:46:56 am
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12-frame-electric-honey-extractor-Vintage/222730128203?hash=item33dbc00b4b:g:JmcAAOSwglVaExqi
here is a used one. old fashen but easy to keep running. I dont know why they put the galvanized shealds around the frame baskets I would pull them out. good starting price but have to wait 9 days to see where it ends
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: Perry on November 23, 2017, 10:43:34 am
That looks like a decent deal for 300! :yes: Like Apis said, pull out the galvanized shields and you've got a good 12 frame radial extractor.
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: apisbees on November 23, 2017, 03:10:12 pm
It looks that it was an old galvanized extractor from 1950 or 60's that has had the tub remade with stainless steel. The real frame and is still original so either painted steel and the frame baskets may be galvanized or plated They could be stainless but hard to tell from the photos, the lid looks that they may still be the original galvanized ones, but they do not come in contact with the honey so would not be a problem. I would not use the brake as the breaking pad would contain asbestos. It would require a good cleaning and some paint on the rusty bare metal and paint chipped areas but it would clean up nicely. The galvanized shields in between the frame baskets I think where put in to help lessen wind drag when starting. The old motors like the one on the extractor where not as fast at starting so if they are removed you may need to install a newer motor with a built in start circuit. With the way honey flows out of the frames I doubt any honey will come in contact with them. It's drive is a slip disk system with the more tension applied to the spring increasing the friction between the 2 drive surfaces causing the real to speed up. Although it can be reversed I do not think that there is any need to as the honey flows out of both sides of frames placed radial in the extractor.
Now just sit back and see what the interest is and where the price goes. You could send the seller an message and see if you can buy it now and see what he is hoping to get out of it. even at $500.00 it would still be a great deal.
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: apisbees on December 03, 2017, 05:14:32 am
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12-frame-electric-honey-extractor-Vintage/222730128203?hash=item33dbc00b4b:g:JmcAAOSwglVaExqi
here is a used one. old fashion but easy to keep running. I don't know why they put the galvanized Shields around the frame baskets I would pull them out. good starting price but have to wait 9 days to see where it ends
Its final selling price was AU $766.00 I do not know if Omni was bidding on it as I have not seen him logged in since I posted it. But for the price it went for in the end , For a couple hundred more he could have new, not something that has been reworked but still has plain steel and galvanized in it.
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: Green bee on December 03, 2017, 08:31:22 am
Omni, with that many hives , I would think you could sell some splits this spring and let the bees buy you an extractor. Wouldn’t take long to get enough money to buy a really nice one...just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: apisbees on December 03, 2017, 12:03:43 pm
Because he is down under he needs it now so he is not crushing all his comb again.
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: omnimirage on December 04, 2017, 04:44:00 pm
For some reason I never received a notifaction and missed all this, ugh, looks like a great opportunity has past by me kicking myself for it. Yes, an extractor sooner rather than later would be good, I went and did beeekeeping and came back with 50 kilos, more to crush and strain.

I'll keep my eye open for more used extractors on ebay may be a good way of finding a cheaper quality one thanks.
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: omnimirage on December 14, 2017, 10:59:53 pm
I've been thinking more so about the logistics of honeyspinning. If I were to take empty frames up with me, to replace with full honey frames to take home and extract, I wouldn't be able to fit such in my station wagon. Taking back just 10 supers full of honey would be very difficult to manage. My car has been getting very full as is. I could strap my tool box and other tools on roof racks to my car, if I got tarps I could load some honey supers on my passenger seats. but it doesn't seem practical. I'd have to take a trailer with me to load with honey. I don't own a trailer nor do I have experience with driving one, but that can change I suppose. Maybe I'd need to get a more spacious vehicle, my station wagon has a gas tank in the back which restricts how many supers I can load up. Maybe a van or ute would be better for me.

Just really doesn't seem practical either way. How do you guys bring back large hauls of honey? It has me thinking again about doing my honey extraction whilst up there. If I got a van, I could maybe set up a honey processing unit inside the van, or get some sort of portable shelter thing to cover myself so that the bees won't swarm me as I'm working. If I did that though, I guess I'd need to buy a manual extractor, not sure how feasible it'd be to use solar panels or a generator to charge an electric one. Then it seems that, I'd be spending days on end manually extracting frames, I'm not sure if I could physically do it.

Bit lost as to how to proceed. Doesn't seem like I have any practical solution.
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: Bakersdozen on December 15, 2017, 06:11:22 am
Logistics can be a difficult hurdle.  I feel for you.  Perhaps you could recruit a roommate to be your assistant in this process, then there might be less complaints. You will also appreciate the help when you are actually harvesting.
My initial thoughts are of sanitation.  Remember you are handling and processing a food.  To harvest in a remote location would require, at a minimum, hot water and an air tight, dust free facility to keep the bees out.  The bees will be all over you like white on rice!  Are you willing to have your station wagon covered in sticky honey?(inside and out)  Because honey will be everywhere. 
Any supers transported outside, whether it be a trailer or car top, will need to be tarped to keep dust and debris out.  Until a year ago, I just had a big old Buick.  I hauled a lot of equipment in the trunk of that car.  Sometimes it took several trips.
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: omnimirage on December 15, 2017, 04:08:36 pm
I didn't even think about the dust. I figure honey would drip from the frames also so I'd have to have some sort of way of capturing it.
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: apisbees on December 16, 2017, 05:48:40 pm
You can rent or even borrow a trailer to start. remember a spare tire and jack to take along and a few blocks of wood. Prepare for the worst and when pulling a trailer slow down an out of control trailer will drive you off the road.
Title: Re: Extractor decisions
Post by: omnimirage on December 17, 2017, 05:05:29 pm
Looks like a trailer might be the way to go.