Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => Beekeeping 101 => Topic started by: Ray on March 01, 2014, 02:52:19 pm
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HELP (this is shouting :D)
Would you extreme Northern beeks care to divulge some of your honeybee survival secrets?
It cant be all genetic! This winter I had 2-three deep hives the way U of Minn suggests. I wrapped them in 1 inch Styrofoam leaving the southside clear. There was extra styrofoam on the cover. I had a small upper exit and a small lower exit. Both hives clean, dry and DEAD! :'(
Weather forecast is for the coldest temps this year Monday! :'(
My last hive is coming inside with me ;) well NOT but I'm thinking about the garage.
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I doubt if the cold killed them. There had to be another reason, starvation, Mites etc.. that got the best of them WHILE they tried to survive the cold. If they had honey, but did not move to it because of the cold, then that is at least partially genetic. (IMHO)
We have had temps WAY below normal, A couple times with wind chills of -50 F.
Moisture raining down on them will do it, but it sounds like you did everything right wintering them. If you had foam on TOP, and an upper vent, then the condensation should not have killed them, so there should be another explanation lurking among their little bodies.
Were they stuck in the cells head first when you opened the hives?
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"HELP (this is shouting :D)"
ray, you picking on me?!...........that's okay jack does it all the time and you can holler :D
what lazy said, and like he asked, how did you find the cluster, where was the cluster, how large was the cluster. might be cold starvation or as barbarian would say 'isolation starvation'. might have been mites, or disease, how strong was the colony? did you have enough frames of bees for a 3 deep hive going into winter?
i have kept the 3 hive configuration......my HO, i went back to double deeps. did you follow the recommendations of the u of m's guidelines, and winter stores to the letter?
also, what bees are you keeping?
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I agree with the above answers. To find out what happened, more info is needed. Three high has never made a difference for me if and when I have done it, in fact, if I have any deeps full of honey heading into winter, I just "store" them on top of any hives I think might use them. (I don't extract deeps).
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Kind of Bees? They were Honeybees! :laugh: They were package bees 2 years ago supposed to be NWC but. I'm fairly sure they both had replaced thier queens. The only thing on the bottom boards (except dead honeybees) was wax colored dust. Nothing that looked like the white mite feces. Both the dead hives had larger clusters than I expected (from what I've read not by experience).
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs2.postimg.cc%2F513688itx%2Fapiary_002.jpg&hash=1e8895bf4567964f718f99cb763141149d2603be) (http://postimg.cc/image/513688itx/)
The little pile came of the bottom board the big pile came out of the hive and there are a lot of dead bees still in there. there is 20lbs or so of honey too.
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okay ray, you will still have some bees remaining frozen on the frames where this cluster was, were the frames empty? were there bees with their heads in empty cells?
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a Ray snip...
Would you extreme Northern beeks care to divulge some of your honeybee survival secrets?
tecumseh...
well I do not qualify but.... take them to east Texas or central Florida. :laugh:
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Confession: didn't follow U of Minn plan exactly :-[. Didn't wrap in BLACK and I didn't bore any inch holes.
The cluster was surrounded by empty cells and in the cluster there were bees head down in the cells. The top bars were clean of black stuff (diarrhea), there was some staining on the outside at the exit. C:-)The cluster was at the east side of the hive and all the honey was on the west. C:-) And the light comes on :-[
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Confession: didn't follow U of Minn plan exactly :-[. Didn't wrap in BLACK and I didn't bore any inch holes.
The cluster was surrounded by empty cells and in the cluster there were bees head down in the cells. The top bars were clean of black stuff (diarrhea), there was some staining on the outside at the exit. C:-)The cluster was at the east side of the hive and all the honey was on the west. C:-) And the light comes on :-[
Ray- Are you saying you just answered your own question?
Sorry about your losses.
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ray, were they in the 3rd deep, i am guessing they were?
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ray, were they in the 3rd deep, i am guessing they were?
Yup, they were in the top box and there was honey (20+lbs) in the middle box.
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Sounds like cold starved. Got caught in an area, exhausted the stores there, and didn't get a break in the weather to shift the cluster. Sad, but it happens.
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Sounds like the bees chimneyed straight up to the third box instead of moving laterally in the second deep. I have a couple of questions: (1) When did you place the third deep on top of the hive? (2) Was the third completely full of honey? If you didn't allow the bees to arrange the honey (with the third deep added) in the fall, then you would have wanted to make sure the third deep was full of honey across the top so they could move side-to-side without hitting any empty frames. But then maybe you already did that.
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Good thought litefoot. Even so, when I finally got into my hive last week, I noted honey on all of the frames on the top super. However, I noticed a lot more activity outside the hive a month ago, which alarmed me a bit because it's still so early here in upper Calif.
Learning on this forum how the hive can die the quickest in late winter, I bought some winter patties and they just gobbled them up. I make my own now, and they are still gobbling them up. One a week. I'm glad I did feed them even with out examining the frames. This one and only hive will make a split for me this year.
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What has worked for us the last few years.
Do something to knock the mites down in fall.
Hives full on stores before winter sets in.
Black tar paper wraps with 2 inch polystyrene on top of inner cover.
Inner cover with front vent hole, notch down.
2 inch spacer on top box under inner cover, for emergency candy feeding.
Mike Palmer talks about his methods for wintering.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFanJbaigM4
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What has worked for us the last few years.
Do something to knock the mites down in fall.
Hives full on stores before winter sets in.
Black tar paper wraps with 2 inch polystyrene on top of inner cover.
Inner cover with front vent hole, notch down.
2 inch spacer on top box under inner cover, for emergency candy feeding.
That is pretty much exactly what I do, the difference is... You explained it without writing a small book! Well done.
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Ditto!
But I don't mind your small books Lazy ;) 8)
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My old bee mentor also taught us a tip on getting them ready.
When you have to feed syrup in the fall.
You want to give them a bunch all at once. Not just a small feeder over days and days.
You want them to have so much coming in it creates a storing frenzy. Like a strong flow.
The storing is done quickly and they can spend the rest of their time drying it down and capping.
At Thanksgiving, add your candy bricks for the spring time.
Italian looking bees get two 5lb bricks. Carniolan looking get one 5lb brick.
In March, check to see if Italians have any left.
Check Carniolans to see if they have even touched it.
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Hu.... Interesting ;)
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Jeez Tefer... sounds like your Mentor and mine knew each other. I think Mine was lazier however.. He always used granulated sugar rather than a brick. :)
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he said the sugar bricks were inverted already, one less step for them to use them.
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My old bee mentor also taught us a tip on getting them ready.
When you have to feed syrup in the fall.
You want to give them a bunch all at once. Not just a small feeder over days and days.
You want them to have so much coming in it creates a storing frenzy. Like a strong flow.
The storing is done quickly and they can spend the rest of their time drying it down and capping.
At Thanksgiving, add your candy bricks for the spring time.
Italian looking bees get two 5lb bricks. Carniolan looking get one 5lb brick.
In March, check to see if Italians have any left.
Check Carniolans to see if they have even touched it.
Thanks for the 'pearls of wisdom'.
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ray~
"This winter I had 2-three deep hives the way U of Minn suggests"
from ray's original post, the wintering method that he is speaking of, is keeping bees in 3 deeps. part of the purpose/management of the system is to ensure young queens and a healthy population of bees going into winter, with adequate honey stores, so that the need to add a spacer or any feed is unnecessary, and wintering success is increased.
from the university of minnesota:
Beekeeping in Northern Climates (https://www.bookstores.umn.edu/viewProduct.cgi?productID=35524#.UoKTlmSicSg)
the original management of this system was developed by Dr. Basil Furgala, and is referred to as the "horizontal two-queen system". through additional research by Dr. Marla Spivak, Gary Rueter, they kept his basic management principles of building a colony and overwintering in 3 deeps, and it is not just about piling boxes on top of one another, and does require some intensive management.
in short, the goal is with a package of bees/or a divide, to be built to a strong colony with a young queen into 3 deeps the first year and for wintering.
in the spring of the 2nd year, that colony is divided, leaving the original queen ( 1 yr old, surviving the winter) in 2 deeps which is termed the 'parent colony'. this will be your honey producer. the 3rd deep, which is the divide to be queened with a young queen, will once again be allowed to build to 3 deeps that season. in late summer of the 2nd year the honey is harvested from your parent colony and is supposed to be depopulated. your divide, which should be in 3 deeps by fall will winter and the process above is repeated; it will be the parent colony, which will be divided, and the honey producer. the purpose is that these divides have young queens in them, and not over 2 years old, and the wintered colonies will a have a queen one year old.
there is a lot more to it than this, but basically young queens, strong populations, queen acceptance problems are minimized, swarming problems minimized, and honey production is enhanced. and also wintering success.
i tried this method for several years, lots of intensive management in the spring and fall. these boxes are heavy. i did not depopulate the parent colony. my success rate? it worked in good nectar years, or when i didn't experience queen problems, but like ray there was a winter or two where the bees cold starved. some keeps here keep bees in three deeps, but most do not really follow the method and will lose a percentage of their colonies. i went back to double deeps.... ;)
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Pretty sure Marla has a video on this, been a while since I saw it. If i come across it I will post the link.
Using all mediums, I am seriously considering leaving them FOUR mediums instead of three.
I can HOPE we don't EVER have another winter like this again, but my tried and true method of three mediums, which has always worked in the past failed solidly this year. Honey reserves GONE by the end of February. They could sure use a box of honey above them right now.
I have been too spoiled by mild winters. Seems that we are returning to winters as I knew them when I was young.
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yes, she does lazy, if you click on the link in my post, you can purchase it from the u of m or other bee suppliers, etc.
it can't hurt lazy to use 4 mediums, instead of three. experiment next year?
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What has worked for us the last few years.
Do something to knock the mites down in fall.
Hives full on stores before winter sets in.
Black tar paper wraps with 2 inch polystyrene on top of inner cover.
Inner cover with front vent hole, notch down.
2 inch spacer on top box under inner cover, for emergency candy feeding.
That is pretty much exactly what I do.
Me too.
Sounds like the three of us got seperated at birth!
Of course, I'm the good lookin one, Lazy, well, he's the handy one, and tefer, well we're still tryin to figure him out. ???
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I think the "The Three Amigo's", are zeroing in on some methods that may really work in our colder climates. Cruising the bee forums and reading everything you can get your hands on helps.
While the old folks didn't have the diseases that we have today, 30+ years of beekeeping
knowledge is very useful information. I just try to listen to them and apply their methods to the present day.
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Would you extreme Northern beeks care to divulge some of your honeybee survival secrets?
Here is what works for me. I don't think you can rule out genetics though. All my bees come from local acclimatized survivor stock.
- No upper ventilation (allows heat loss)
- Highest insulated value on top (force condensation on walls)
- Limit the hive volume to a minimum (I use polystyrene hive bodies which allow me to knock them down to one deep, they use about 30%+ less stores in polystyrene, general rule in my area is 2 (wooden) deeps of honey for the winter)
- Vent/drain holes in bottom board (allows fresh air to circulate into the hive)
- I also run a 2" insulated shim on top in case I need to feed which is very rare (don't know if it aids in the survival, but you can see they like the space to cluster even when there is plenty of stores in the comb)
Some of my hives in the early spring
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbeevac.com%2Fphotos%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10001%2FSpring_Bee_Feeding_002.JPG&hash=cd00cab59f609ac284959731bff5415f8678034f)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbeevac.com%2Fphotos%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10001%2FSpring_Bee_Feeding_003.JPG&hash=b80b3c2817703ea58aa7774a9136a536c17abaa8)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbeevac.com%2Fphotos%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10001%2FSpring_Bee_Feeding_004.JPG&hash=87a2e237c2889ad68b6b76dc248b9bccb152e707)
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Lazy, I have some 4 medium hives in the mix this winter.
I don't have a survival count cause they're buried in a snow drift in the woods.
They are stand alone with a candy brick on top.
I've wanted to try some to see if they were any better than the 3 deep experiment.
The deeps did no better adding another box, and still perished.
I will report back in the spring after we can get over there.
Regards, Amigo#3
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Rob, for the life of me I can't figure how you make those nucs work.
Every time I don't have a top entrance they end up a dead soggy mess.
I've had Beemax hives in the past and couldn't make them work worth a darn.
You must have four 1 inch holes drilled into the bottoms or some other trick. ;)
Maybe your lids don't fit worth a crap? ;D
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Rob, for the life of me I can't figure how you make those nucs work.
Every time I don't have a top entrance they end up a dead soggy mess.
I've had Beemax hives in the past and couldn't make them work worth a darn.
You must have four 1 inch holes drilled into the bottoms or some other trick. ;)
Maybe your lids don't fit worth a crap? ;D
My BeeMax nucs have a 1/4" drain hole in the front corner and I tilt them forward. Before I did this I would find an 1" of water in the bottom of them. What I don't understand is you see these beekeepers in Canada that overwinter nucs and feed them by pumping syrup through the entrance so they obviously have no drain holes.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbeevac.com%2Fphotos%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10001%2FIMG_1954.jpg&hash=3e08846f263f87ad77b1d9413123c433caf9c999)
Most of my 10 frame BeeMax hives (pictured in previous post) have two 3/4" vent holes in the bottom board. Though I have been experimenting with a new vertical entrance bottom board that I designed and it has been working well
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbeevac.com%2Fphotos%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10001%2FIMG_3629.JPG&hash=f5f464205bd516e83dffd0e8c1e447963e9bd9fa)
I have a 2" foil-back insulation board shim on the BeeMax box and cover that with a 2" foil-backed insulation board cover. No upper ventilation holes.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbeevac.com%2Fphotos%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10001%2Fwinterhive.jpg&hash=84a35ff0008d1bbacb1d56d3e7f94677b19fd614)
Most just have a piece of coroplast on top of the insulation board and no telescopic cover.
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I think Michael Bush used some wood hives that he pours syrup into the bottoms to feed too.
That's amazing! I can sure believe the 1 inch of liquid in the bottom with no drain hole.
I'll have to try a few of those next winter and see if I can pull it off too.
I know everything I did with nucs this winter was wrong.
I have 4 different configurations this winter, and hardly any are working out for us. Thanks
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Dont feel bad Tefer. At the meeting last night it seemed as if everyone was having a difficult time. After hearing of their losses at this point I didn't want to speak up for fear of jinxing myself. Seems winter is going to go down fighting, and until I have pollen and at least syrup going into my hives I can't count them as survivors. One of the commercial beekeepers reported a 70% loss.. from hearing him talk before I have to guess thats a little over 800 hives dead...
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Hi Lazy- Yikes! That is bad bad news! so sorry for all you guys. And here I post pics of my bees going nuts! :\ :\ :\
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You post away Jen.. seeing your bees gives hope.
I like to think I am having better luck because the bees I have are Carniolan and feral/survivors.. WOn't know a final score for a couple of weeks according to the weather man..
Who put HIM in charge anyhow? Can we vote him out and hire a weather man that reports balmy temps and sunshine?
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Well if it weren't for all of you guys, my hive might not have made it this far either. I am humbly grateful. Sending over Big Good Weather Mojo for all. But remember to, that we here in Cali are on the opposite side of the water spectrum. We're gonna be in trouble this summer...
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Very interesting set up Rob. It never occurred to me to use the insulation itself as a shim, great idea. Do you use some sort of foam glue to glue the corners together?
I'm like tefer, any hives that don't have upper vents turn soggy. Interesting.
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robo~
"I also run a 2" insulated shim on top in case I need to feed which is very rare (don't know if it aids in the survival, but you can see they like the space to cluster even when there is plenty of stores in the comb)"
i have a similiar setup, 2" insulation board, what is your 2"sugar shim insulated with robo? mine aren't insulated. i rarely have to feed in the winter, but will throw on a 2" shim on a lighter hive, and i find the same thing, the bees seem to like the extra space to cluster.
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Very interesting set up Rob. It never occurred to me to use the insulation itself as a shim, great idea. Do you use some sort of foam glue to glue the corners together?
I'm like tefer, any hives that don't have upper vents turn soggy. Interesting.
The ones in the pictures above are made from foil backed insulation board (fiberglass strands) and are taped together with foil duct tape. I believe insulation is only part of the puzzle to control moisture without allowing heat to escape. I believe volume also plays a roll. The less unoccupied space the better. By using polystyrene hives, I can cut them down to one deep. The combination of the well insulated hive AND the fact that no heat is being lost through ventilation greatly reduces the consumption of stores and requirement for 2 deeps. Unoccupied space is just a heat drain on the cluster, the more there is the more drain.
I have also made some insulation shims out of blue rigid Styrofoam insulation for my beemax nucs. I used coroplast on the outside and inside to protect them. I used hot glue to assemble and they held up OK. After doing some research, the next ones will be made with CA glue and "flashing" the corroplast with a propane torch before applying.
robo~
"I also run a 2" insulated shim on top in case I need to feed which is very rare (don't know if it aids in the survival, but you can see they like the space to cluster even when there is plenty of stores in the comb)"
i have a similiar setup, 2" insulation board, what is your 2"sugar shim insulated with robo? mine aren't insulated. i rarely have to feed in the winter, but will throw on a 2" shim on a lighter hive, and i find the same thing, the bees seem to like the extra space to cluster.
The shims are made from 2" foil backed insulation board. I rarely ever need to feed either, but it is a whole lot easy to do if a shim is in place already :)
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Rob, for the life of me I can't figure how you make those nucs work.
So the weather got up to 40 today so I took a look into the handful of nucs I have in my yard and took some pictures of the 1" shims I use on the Beemax nucs. All are still alive and seem well.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbeevac.com%2Fphotos%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10001%2FIMG_1963.JPG&hash=163ca8464cbf428d15cb66451202917a9e37d405)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbeevac.com%2Fphotos%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10001%2FIMG_1961.JPG&hash=dc60f3c5ecccb6da00f031a3a83f5da3035d047e)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbeevac.com%2Fphotos%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10001%2FIMG_1960.JPG&hash=35b3b1a735c55eb3d94a5fa123e81cb1f379da53)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbeevac.com%2Fphotos%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10001%2FIMG_1962.JPG&hash=63450b27986baf990646f42c0344be82e30f86fe)
Rob...
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Well it managed to get up to +4 C here today, after another week of -20 C.... Both hives still buzzing. So far so good, I figure the snow will be gone by July or so if this winter keeps up the way it's going. It just never wants to end. :'( :'(
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I've had bees for a couple of very cold winters now, with no losses. I don't think that the beeks around here lose any more bees than anyone else. IMO it's a lot to do with genetics. Bees don't use more stores when it gets very cold, they use less, but they will starve a couple of inches from honey if there is a gap to cross to get there. The standard wintering practice is two deeps packed very full of honey. Otherwise, same as described by others. Entrance reduced to 1", top entrance reduced to 1/2" and lots of insulation on top.
I think that adding extra hive bodies is not a good idea. It's better to have two deeps filled to the gills than 3 deeps with an empty frame here and there. The bees need to be managed so that they fill their top deep and push the brood area down to the bottom deep by September. That way all they have to do is back fill a few frames of brood by winter. When the supers come off at the end of August and all those bees are packed into two deeps, they have no trouble doing that.
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I have always thought that bees used less stores when it was colder too.. until this winter. All of my hives went into winter with over 100 lbs of stores.. by the end of February those stores were GONE... Not an OUNCE of honey left in the hives.. Normal winters they came into March and MOST had not touched the sugar I put on top.. by late Feb every hive I had was into the sugar reserves. If I had not put it on I would have lost them all.
If bees used less reserves when it is colder, I should have at least 90 lbs of honey and syrup left in my hives.
I can only guess that COLD is dependent on HOW cold?
30 to 0 they use less honey than from 50 - 30 degrees.. but when its 50 below they use a lot more?
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some great info here Robo..... and thanks for the pictures.
and a snip....
Rob, for the life of me I can't figure how you make those nucs work.
tecumseh....
well just casually it would appear that any comparison between your own location and Robo's you would have to factor in the difference in humidity and altitude. I would suggest that you need to take basic concepts provided by Robo and then applies these to your own local situation. Tweak the idea... so to speak.
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Those look like real nice nucs Rob. The 4 I have are not that strong, but then they weren't going into winter strong either.
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Checked my hives this weekend and found 12 dead colonies. Starvation. No honey left.
13 still alive, and received 1 kg of sugar each to stay alive till next Friday when they'll get patties.
Had three 3 deep hives that "burned" the hole thru the middle and died on the top. If I only had some sugar there...
1st yard 5 out of 7
2nd yard 5 out of 8
3rd yard 2 out of 10.
All hives were wrapped, with 2" insulation on the top.
Snow drifting in 3rd yard had all hives covered with snow, and that saved them. Even my nuc, the only one I had is still alive.
Keep my fingers crossed for remaining 13 colonies.
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Dang, that's a hard hit Marbees.
Too early for me to tell yet. I went out and listened to 16 yesterday and heard bees in all of them, but that doesn't tell me if they're viable or not. I am going to go out today and listen to some more. Temps too low to open and peek. And if that wasn't enough, we have a weather watch for up to another foot of snow possible on Wednesday! :'(
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Dang Marbees.. That hurts... but is about on par with what I have been hearing around here.. Going to a different meeting tonight so might hear more.
Supposed to be 62 degrees here today. If it makes it there I will be opening and start feeding.. IF I have any left to feed.
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Never saw this much honey consumed in the winter. Looks like extended period of double digit freeze made bees double the consumption of honey.
Veggie farmer was so sad when heard that 5 of 7 hives on his farm died, he offered me to use his huge barn for next winter.
So in August, after the honey harvest I will be splitting all my hives in singles, and overwinter indoors. Beekeeping journey is everything but boring.
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Man... I know this is going to sound like bragging, so I apologize in advance.. but went through the hives today, expecting the worst....
I KNEW I had one dead, and expected it to die... so after going through all the hives, here, and at Dads, the current count is 1/18 out of 19 I went into winter with... I am ONE happy camper right now.. Did a vid on the front hives, will post it in a new thread after the meeting tonight.. Still some winter to go, but the temps are looking better...
Put the stand feeder out as well as putting jars above the hives.. I have bees SWARMING the pollen sub as I write this...
I'll post more after I fall off cloud 9
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Man... I know this is going to sound like bragging, so I apologize in advance..
:laugh: :laugh: You crazy, not lazy :D
I am VERY HAPPY FOR YOU, hope for more good news from other members :)
Can't wait to see your video 8)
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We've had one 70 degree day, last Monday. I was able to go through one of my hives in the back yard. I found it queenless. I will be checking the hive sitting next to it probably next Monday (weather permitting). If it's queen right, I will combine. Not surprised about losing the queen. I just wish the timing had been better or that they would have had a chance to rear another queen. That hive was my big honey producer and it's still full of bees. When I bent down to put the entrance reducer back on, one of them popped me on the jaw to give me the first sting of the year.
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We've had one 70 degree day, last Monday. I was able to go through one of my hives in the back yard. I found it queenless. I will be checking the hive sitting next to it probably next Monday (weather permitting). If it's queen right, I will combine. Not surprised about losing the queen. I just wish the timing had been better or that they would have had a chance to rear another queen. That hive was my big honey producer and it's still full of bees. When I bent down to put the entrance reducer back on, one of them popped me on the jaw to give me the first sting of the year.
Boy, a picture to confirm that would have been good. You know the old saying, no picture, it didn't happen! Chef Unknown might have even had something for you to relieve the pain. :)
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Too late Perry! The swelling is starting to go down. She stung me through my veil, so I probably didn't get a full dose of venom.
You don't want to see a picture of me anyway. I might cause this forum to crash.
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Too late Perry! The swelling is starting to go down. She stung me through my veil, so I probably didn't get a full dose of venom.
You don't want to see a picture of me anyway. I might cause this forum to crash.
LOL I doubt that.. Pictures of Perry and Iddee didn't cause problems so your certainly safe!
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a snip....
Man... I know this is going to sound like bragging, so I apologize in advance..
tecumseh..
"it ain't braggin', if it is the truth"
I would suggest.... no need to apologize. I have long suspect that winter survival is much about fall preparation????? so if you did or didn't do anything special ahead of this very nasty (and perhaps I should add here totally unpredictable severe winter) sharing might have some benefit to others.
Places like this SHOULD BE where we can share both our failures and our success with the longer term hope that others can learn something in the process.
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Places like this SHOULD BE where we can share both our failures and our success with the longer term hope that others can learn something in the process.
I whole heartily agree. We can learn from others successes and failures.
In my case, I knew the queen was a couple of years old, but I sure was hoping they would requeen themselves. That colony were serious honey makers. Alas, not a single queen cell to be found. I wish her death would have been more timely.
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The only thing I did has gotten me in hot water with quite a few folks.. I put my granulated sugar on the hive when I wrap it in November, JUST in case I can't get into the hives..
THIS winter.. I DID manage to get into the hives in February, which I was beginning to think I wouldn't.. However.. Every hive had already burned through 100 to 120 lbs of reserves and were halfway through the sugar I had put on.
Most years, if I can get into the hive in February, they are not yet at the top. Most years I remove sugar and make syrup with it in mid March...
In discussing the situation with other beeks at three different meetings/clubs (a fourth tomorrow night) and seeing a 70% loss across the board, I can only guess that everyone's bees burned through a LOT more reserves than normal, and those without an excess starved. Those with an excess, or those that were more frugal with their resources survived..
We had about a week of NASTY weather with 50 mph gusts and -20 temps.. We had several weeks of -12 or colder with 20+ mph sustained winds..
Normal here is about two weeks of sub zero with 12 - 15 mph sustained winds.. the rest of the winter hovers around 0, with regular breaks to just above freezing, sometimes as warm as 40... a few years back, in Mid January my wife and I were riding our horses on a 60 degree day.... I can only guess that people have become complacent and no longer prepare for the worst, and this winter bit them pretty hard.
Putting sugar on in November has gotten me flamed pretty good on other forums.. I considered finding those threads and asking those most aggravated by my method how their bees did.. but I will refrain... What I did worked, right or wrong, so I am one happy feller right now.
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Plan ahead, is what I say. I always put my candy bricks on at Thanksgiving and then wrap after that.
At least they have something to keep them going if I can't get into them.
This has saved our bees numerous times. I don't care what some other knucklehead says.
Flame away!
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4 deg C, 37 deg F is the temp that the bees will use the least amount of stores. It keeps the bees in a tight cluster so there is a smaller cluster space for the bees to keep warm. Temperatures above this the bees are more active and consume more stores. Colder and the bees need to consume more honey to create the extra heat needed to maintain the cluster temp.
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4 deg C, 37 deg F is the temp that the bees will use the least amount of stores. It keeps the bees in a tight cluster so there is a smaller cluster space for the bees to keep warm. Temperatures above this the bees are more active and consume more stores. Colder and the bees need to consume more honey to create the extra heat needed to maintain the cluster temp.
I have always heard that there is a point where they will use LESS, but have not read or heard of them using MORE when the temps continue to drop.
It makes perfect sense, and at least in my mind is now proven as fact. A nasty winter won't be catching me or my bees unprepared.. if it turns out to be a mild winter, well, then I will have plenty of leftover stores to help build new colonies.
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I think winter honey consumption is mufti-faceted (temperature, weather cycle, hive insulation, hive volume, and probably many more)
Believe it or not, my hives seemed to use less this year. The only explanation I can come up with is that it was an extremely cold winter with relatively few breaks of warming temperatures. This kept the bees in more of a "hibernation" mode than breaking cluster and reforming the cluster many times. Although the weather was extremely cold, the polystyrene hives provided enough protection that they didn't need to consume more to maintain temperature. I also believe that reducing them down to 1 deep also helps them retain heat better (though I have a couple doubles that I haven't check on their left over stores yet).
So they had less activity which used less stores, but they were well insulated so the did not have to use more stores to maintain the temperature :-X
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Putting sugar on in November has gotten me flamed pretty good on other forums.. I considered finding those threads and asking those most aggravated by my method how their bees did.. but I will refrain... What I did worked, right or wrong, so I am one happy feller right now.
Nothing wrong with what you did. Sugar even helps absorb moisture. I consider it insurance. Doesn't cost anything, and, like you said, you can reuse it for syrup.
Let the doubters console themselves.
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Plan ahead, is what I say. I always put my candy bricks on at Thanksgiving and then wrap after that.
At least they have something to keep them going if I can't get into them.
This has saved our bees numerous times. I don't care what some other knucklehead says.
Flame away!
Yes tefer2 I know now, from now on wrapping hives and sugar block on top is a same day job in my yards.
Who would think that I wont be able to open my hives for almost 5 months? From now on I assume every winter will be long and bitterly cold.
As for low consumption in Robo's hives this winter, polystyrene is the answer IMO
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Marbees;
As for low consumption in Robo's hives this winter, polystyrene is the answer IMO
Thats sort of what I thought as well Marbees... Now I just have to get past this resistance that wells up when I think about the time and work involved.
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Regardless of all of the advantages of polystyrene I will stick with pine. I know that German and Sweden beekeepers love them, and they have great results with those boxes, however those boxes are very fragile, mice can chew them, they crack a lot, hard to repair.
My friend acquired some of those when buying out another keeper, but doesn't use them, for the reasons stated above.
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I have built hives using 2x material instead of 1x for other people.. I think its a good concept, except they were HEAVY with no frames or bees in them...
I would agree about the vulnerability of poly hives.. my fears here would be mice, skunks, possums, coon, Hail, and high winds.
I helped design a "Cebelnjak" for friends in Maine... Seriously considering making a couple of my own if were going to have winters like this.
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a robo snip...
Believe it or not, my hives seemed to use less this year. The only explanation I can come up with is that it was an extremely cold winter with relatively few breaks of warming temperatures.
tecumseh...
I have read a good deal of material of the old guys (cc miller and that crowd) who use to commonly set hives in cellars and I think what they suggested as to honey consumption during the winter 'hibernation period' pretty much conforms to your own logic.
topics like this only effect me only in my 'curious cat' mode.... but I certainly do hope such comparison of notes continues to takes place here.
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Here's a very good study on what bees do in the winter. Lots of information and food for thought.
http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/the-thermology-of-wintering-honey-bee-colonies/
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Great reading there C7.. Thanks!!!
A lot of interesting information, and something that surprised me a little....
Effects of Entrance Location on Cluster
The bottom entrances were closed and the top entrances remained open on all colonies for a few days and then the openings were reversed. The bottom entrance had no effect on the reaction of the cluster because of temperature. Nor did the bottom entrance affect the temperature in the bottom body of the check or packed colonies. The tape colonies had a 2ยบ F. rise in the bottom body when the bottom entrance was closed. When the top entrance was closed, the cluster moved closer to it and did not draw back at night as it did when it was opened. Except for temperature changes caused by the cluster movement, the temperature distribution in the hives was not altered by changing the entrances.
Although the effects of the outside temperature on the cluster were reduced when the top entrance was closed, the bees were prevented from leaving the hive on warm days. Periodical bee flights in winter seem to make for a healthier colony. Without an upper entrance the bees were confined to the hive most of the winter and thus their chance for winter survival possibly was decreased. The lower body of the unheated check and packed hives never warmed up enough to permit the bees to fly from the bottom entrance.
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that is a most interesting tid bit you found there Lazy.