Author Topic: Frames Used  (Read 21434 times)

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Offline Moots

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2014, 07:00:29 am »
lazy,
I'm with you, think we have quite a bit of confusion going on... ;D


10 frame hives vs the 8 frame hive configuration? in langstroth terms, no there are 8 frame hives made vs the 10 frames. when i think of langstroth hives, i think in terms of a 10 framer, not the eight frame hives now made today. i think these are referred to as the english hives?


riverbee,
Not to split hairs, but while I can appreciate that you may not think of an 8 frame hive as a langstroth...Your doing so is the first I've seen or heard of it.  Admittedly, I've only been involved in bees a little over a year.  But in that limited time I've attended 30+ local club meetings in two different cities, two State Association Conferences, a National ABF conference, and spent countless hours online in bee forums and watching videos.  And you are the first person I've heard claim that an 8 frame hive is not a Langstroth.  In addition, for whatever it's worth, both Wikipedia and BeeSource's definition and description of a Lang includes 8 frames.

I'm not sure, but I think the term "english hive" or "english garden hive" is usually associated with basically any Lang with the cute little "A-Frame" top cover.  I think it's more of a marketing term than an actual type of hive....but I may be mistaken.   


and as to what you said moots.....less frames=less combs=less cells=less laying space=less bees=less honey....
not true moots, math doesn't always define bees and let's say  i get 950 pounds or more of honey out of 5 or 6 hives with my method, well i will stick to it. as far as shaving frames and squeezing more in....in my HO, shaving frames and squeezing more in doesn't give you what you think you are achieving. if you think those shaved frames moots give you more honey, you are mistaken.

btw if you want to make comb honey with foundationless frames, in a 10 frame langstroth box, or shaving and squeezing an extra frame in, i can tell you this, it's gonna look pretty sad.  if you don't make foundationless comb honey and are shaving frames off to squeeze more in, then i wish you well at uncapping these..... :D


To clairfy: I run all 8 frame medium equipment...8 frames in the brood box...8 frames in the honey supers. 

The common variations to this approach that I'm familiar with and can appreciate the argument for, albeit maybe not agree with the conclusions are...First, run one fewer frame in the HONEY SUPER allowing for thicker, easier to uncap frames.  And Second, shave down your frames to squeeze one extra frame in the BROOD BOX to allow for more laying space for the queen in the same box.

Neither I, nor anyone reputable that I know of has ever implied shaving down and squeezing extra frames in the HONEY SUPERS!  I'm really confused where you got the idea that I was suggesting shaving down and squeezing extra frames into a honey super???


EDIT: i just want to add to this, consider a langstroth 10 frame deep and placing 9 fully drawn frames in, rather than 10....maybe better ventilation and better wintering?  not rolling so many bees or fighting to get the frames out?  medium supers.....if you have less than 10 frames, say 8 or 9, uncapping these will be easier...

Not sure if you are talking about running 9 frames in a 10 frame deep as a BROOD BOX or HONEY SUPER.  If you're talking about doing it in a Honey Super, while I don't necessarily agree with all the claimed advantages and benefits, there are many that do, and it's a fairly common and accepted practice.
If you are talking about doing it in your Brood boxes, I would think, if you're not alone there, you're in a VERY VERY SMALL minority.  I'd be curious to hear what you think the advantages are...


and also if you think you get more honey with 10 frames, this is not true.


Again, this is something that can and has been debated ad nauseam.  However, to the best of my knowledge, any and all claims of which method actually produces "more Honey" is purely subjective and based on "opinion".  I haven't seen anything resembling a controlled or scientific study offering data on  this subject.

So, concerning the more honey with 10 frames approach...while you say, "this is not true", I think the truth is, no one REALLY knows.  Therefore, what you and others think on  both sides of this debate are simply opinions. :)




Offline tecumseh

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2014, 08:01:11 am »
for my own hive I basically utilize 10 frame equipment and I operate these with 9 frames in them once they can really be called comb (see Iddee's original post).... that is 9 frames in the brood nest and 9 frames in the honey supers..... 9 frames top to bottom of the stack.

9 frames in a 10 frame box is pretty much standard operating procedure in most commercial operation... so I do some of this simply because that is the way my mentor's did and secondly at least here I think it definitely adds to the ventilation up thru the stack during the summer months < it can get hot enough here that comb can and will melt down entirely and this invariable only happens in boxes filled with 10 frames and usually on the outer wall that receive the most direct sunlight.

at the bee lab we operate 8 frame and since we are just starting up all these now have 8 frames.  this may or may not change in the future depending upon what the boss wants. 

as far as I know 8 and 10 frames are both langstroth style hives.  it is my understanding that english garden style hives are somewhat a different dimension and perhaps we can get BARBARIAN to comment on the definition of an english garden hive????   this subject to me can get quite confusing since there are numerous other names like jumbos and national and the list goes on and on and sometime in one place a set of boxes and frames is called one thing and in some place else it is called something entirely different.

Offline Crofter

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2014, 09:55:37 am »
I couldnt remember the rationale for 9 frames in the brood boxes but see where it could mesh well when running 9 frames in the supers. I dont have the heat ventilation concern in my climate and feel that 10 frames in brood box tight together give less brace and burr comb so the combs are more smooth sided than when developed spaced out.

Would staggered frames alter the amount of bridging between upper and lower frames compared to running same numbers top to bottom?
Frank

Offline blueblood

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2014, 10:11:46 am »
I run 10 frames in both the boxes I raise brood in and the honey boxes. 

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2014, 10:59:26 am »

  According to Michael Bush;
Cells on one deep frame of 5.4mm foundation 7000
Cells on one deep frame of 4.9mm foundation 8400

Cells on one medium frame of 5.4mm foundation 4620
Cells on one medium frame of 4.9mm foundation 5544


So if you run deeps 9 frames in a ten frame box you have 7000 less cells in that box.. Shaving the frames and putting 11 frames in a ten frame box you have 7000 cells more than normal, or 14000 more than a 9 frame set up.
   In a normal two deep 10 frame configuration you have 140000 available cells.
   In a 9 frame set up you lose 14000 so have 126000 available cells
   In an 11 frame set up, you gain 14000 so have 154000 Cells available for eggs/groceries.

   14000 cells seems like a lot to me.  Granted... I don't shave or space, so yall will have to make your own conclusions :) 
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Offline Crofter

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2014, 12:04:14 pm »
The number of available cells wouldnt necessarily be proportional to the actual observed population if other conditions are the same. It could be a controlling factor perhaps with a single deep brood. Closer space between comb faces could allow a given number of bees to cover more brood in cold conditions. What might work fine for someone pulling tight frames out in a warmer climate with Italian bees would be a curse for me spring and fall with my heavy propolizing bees.

Some great gurus have touted that but I bet it is a very small percentage of hives that actually run the 11 frame configuration requiring narrower than standard frames.

Isn't beekeeping fantastic? Without all the different possibilities and one size fits all, it wouldnt be near as interesting!
Frank

Offline Jen

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2014, 12:29:02 pm »
"Simple answer for that one.   Supers are for honey. they can be deeps, mediums, or shallows. they go on above the brood boxes."


Ahhhh Finally a Simple Answer..... thaaaank yooooooou laaaaaaazy
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Offline Jen

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2014, 12:32:13 pm »
"Think of it like this.  A super is like a superstructure, built above the base.   The brood chambers or boxes are like the base or foundation (not foundation as used in frames, but like a house foundation).   super = above   But now to confuse things:  some people use all deeps, so there would be brood in bottom deeps and honey in the top deeps (or supers)."

Hu!! And yet another simple answer!!! Maybe I can get some sleep tonight without butterfly's in my head  :D
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Offline Jen

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2014, 12:40:19 pm »
 According to Michael Bush;
Cells on one deep frame of 5.4mm foundation 7000
Cells on one deep frame of 4.9mm foundation 8400

Cells on one medium frame of 5.4mm foundation 4620
Cells on one medium frame of 4.9mm foundation 5544


So if you run deeps 9 frames in a ten frame box you have 7000 less cells in that box.. Shaving the frames and putting 11 frames in a ten frame box you have 7000 cells more than normal, or 14000 more than a 9 frame set up.
   In a normal two deep 10 frame configuration you have 140000 available cells.
   In a 9 frame set up you lose 14000 so have 126000 available cells
   In an 11 frame set up, you gain 14000 so have 154000 Cells available for eggs/groceries.


Had to read this one twice but I get it. I see the 11 frame as a possible solution to CCD. Make more bees!
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Offline Crofter

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2014, 01:27:34 pm »
That CCD term might be getting a bit dated Jaybird ;) I think the insurance companies are starting to say you have to claim something that is identifiable before you see any payout. Perhaps too many times CCD got used as a catchall excuse for PPB  ;)

I think you will find that many guru websites make claims and associations that real close impartial scrutiny would put caution flags on.
Frank

Offline Slowmodem

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2014, 03:00:09 pm »
as far as I know 8 and 10 frames are both langstroth style hives.  it is my understanding that english garden style hives are somewhat a different dimension and perhaps we can get BARBARIAN to comment on the definition of an english garden hive????   this subject to me can get quite confusing since there are numerous other names like jumbos and national and the list goes on and on and sometime in one place a set of boxes and frames is called one thing and in some place else it is called something entirely different.

It may be like what we all call carbonated beverages.  Around here, we just call everything a Coke (when somebody says they're going to get a Coke and come back with a Pepsi or Dr. Pepper, it's not a surprise).  In other parts of the country, people call them pop or soda.  It's all the same thing.   ;D
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Offline iddee

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2014, 03:25:50 pm »
""So if you run deeps 9 frames in a ten frame box you have 7000 less cells in that box.. Shaving the frames and putting 11 frames in a ten frame box you have 7000 cells more than normal, or 14000 more than a 9 frame set up.
   In a normal two deep 10 frame configuration you have 140000 available cells.
   In a 9 frame set up you lose 14000 so have 126000 available cells
   In an 11 frame set up, you gain 14000 so have 154000 Cells available for eggs/groceries.""

So a queen is capable of laying 1500 to 2000 eggs a day. At her peak, in 21 days she will lay42,000 eggs in 21 days, then bees will emerge to give her new cells to lay in. I have read it takes a frame of food to raise a frame of brood. 3 days as egg, nine days capped, nine days being fed. 18,000 being fed at any one time, or a need for 2 1/2 frames of food.

Now, at max, 7 frames of brood and2 1/2 frames, with 1/2 frame to spare, equals 9 frames. Any more than, according to those figures, is just extra insurance.
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Offline Crofter

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2014, 04:47:53 pm »
Iddee, in your last line I think you have a math error.  Just for a leading question since I am not sold on the close centre frame idea, do you think they might get going quicker in a cold climate with the tighter space between frames? At the start of the season I dont think the queen can lay full out but has to scale up gradually to the point where there are enough bees to temperature control everything she lays. If it were bare foundation could they conceivably draw it quicker at the tighter spacing?

If, and I mean if it actually works better, I bet it is some factor other than the additional cell numbers that makes it work.
Frank

Offline iddee

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2014, 05:06:54 pm »
OK. 6 frames of brood. That means an additional frame of insurance.
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Offline tecumseh

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2014, 05:44:04 pm »
as far as I know the primary reason most commercial folks run 9 frames in a ten frame box is for two reason...

1)  this make pulling one of the middle frames for inspection purpose so much easier than with 10 frames in the box < this then reduce the time and frustration of the most simple type of inspection. 

2) since your frames are a bit less crowded the brood nest is a bit less congested when you do move the hive < since transporting a hive often happens in the warmer month this advantage is much larger than might be obvious...  they are trying to avoid excessive crowding and overheating which can and will kill a hive very quickly.

a snip...
So a queen is capable of laying 1500 to 2000 eggs a day. At her peak, in 21 days she will lay42,000 eggs in 21 days.

tecumseh...
one needs to recognize that this is often stated at The MAXIMUM egg laying capacity of the queen....  not the mean nor the medium or the mode.  and the number is for 2000 eggs per day X 21 days. for 1500 the figure would be more like 31500,

my quick math says 18X8X2X25 equals about 7200 cells/frame X 9 frames equal 64800.  or for a queen laying a constant 2000 eggs per day this should yield 5.8 frames max for brood rearing.


Offline iddee

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2014, 06:00:32 pm »
Yep. That's what I was saying. At her peak, meant max, 2000 eggs per day. Below that, fewer frames are needed. Meaning a 9 frame deep should be more than enough for her max ability and storage of immediate need food.
Quit arguing, tec. It's 6, not a half dozen. :D
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Offline Crofter

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2014, 06:39:34 pm »
Wouldn't closer the queen is to having no "surplus" space the more possible for her to be slowed down by backfilling of the brood nest?

Is nobody going to touch the theory of 11 narrow frame advantage?
Frank

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2014, 06:42:31 pm »
Quit arguing, tec. It's 6, not a half dozen. :D

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Offline Crofter

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2014, 07:17:14 pm »
Lazybkpr, I agree you can get more eggs in the box with shaved 11 frames but how do you figure more groceries? Put that glass down and talk to me! :laugh:
Frank

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Frames Used
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2014, 07:23:53 pm »
Nope, i can type with one hand!!!  :laugh:   
   I'm not claiming anything!!  I am still having a hard time understanding how to make more room in a box that remains the same size. I guess I can understand more cells, but that also equals smaller or narrower cells..   Right now, I understand 10/10 and its working quite well so I'll just stick right with that. When I exceed 50 hives I will have a bit of leeway to experiment without affecting production.
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