Author Topic: 20 Frames of Drone Brood and Wax Moth Question  (Read 16997 times)

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Offline blueblood

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2015, 09:28:16 pm »
Jen, reference not wanting to take eggs, do you remember when I cut out a quarter sized comb with eggs and placed it in a queenless hive? It worked! So, next time, you might try that if you don't want to take a whole frame.

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2015, 09:41:47 pm »
My method has been a frame of open brood with eggs..  No queen cell made? Another frame two weeks later...   With the addition of the second frame I have found queen cells...   If NO queen cells then wait another two weeks and add another frame of brood...  On this addition they will usually pull queen cells...
   Queen cells mean they will accept a queen...  if they start cells on the second frame I may let them raise the queen..  If they pull cells on the third frame, I introduce a mated queen in the normal way, and destroy any queen cells started.
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Offline iddee

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2015, 09:44:20 pm »
And you could have taken the 3 frames of brood and started a nuc and been 4 weeks ahead.
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Offline pistolpete

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2015, 09:53:01 pm »
I researched this topic a bit after I ended up with a drone laying Nuc.  The consensus seems to be that brood pheromones inhibit the development of drone layers almost as well as an active queen.  So putting in a few rounds of brood as outlined in the previous post gradually supresses them.  Another way is Robo's queen introduction frame (basically an enormous queen cage).

Hindsight is a great thing.  I think this would have work in your situation:  Pop an empty drawn frame into the middle of your queen right Nuc. Give the queen 2 days to fill it up.  Then take that frame of eggs, brush the bees off and put it in the queen less hive.  Repeat after about a week.   This takes very little away from the Nuc, they have not lost bees and they have not spent resources feeding brood. 
My advice: worth price charged :)

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2015, 09:55:41 pm »
I agree.
   Saving a laying worker hive is not worth the time and resource invested, but everyone should try it at least once.
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Offline Jen

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2015, 10:32:10 pm »
I can't believe I sent my queen to the gallows... heavy siiiiiigh


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Offline Jen

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2015, 10:51:41 pm »
Pete, it didn't come clear until you posted your research here. And I remember your post not too long ago when you found the same situation. All day I have been bamboozled as to why in the world a long term queenless hive would ever concieve of killing a queen, when that is exactly what they need.

Led wanted to know if there is anyone out there that has tried to introduce a queen into a laying worker hive and been successfull?

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Offline Zweefer

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2015, 11:12:15 pm »
My method has been a frame of open brood with eggs..  No queen cell made? Another frame two weeks later...   With the addition of the second frame I have found queen cells...   If NO queen cells then wait another two weeks and add another frame of brood...  On this addition they will usually pull queen cells...
   Queen cells mean they will accept a queen...  if they start cells on the second frame I may let them raise the queen..  If they pull cells on the third frame, I introduce a mated queen in the normal way, and destroy any queen cells started.

I would say yes   :yes:
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Offline Yankee11

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2015, 11:30:27 pm »
I just tried something.

I had a drone laying nuc, I took it out 1o feet. I sat another nuc in it's place that had 1 frame with 2 capped queen cells in the new nuc. Then I dumped the drone laying nuc out and let the bees fly into the nuc with the capped queen cells in it. Gonna see if they tear down the queen cells.

Offline ledifni

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2015, 11:51:52 pm »
Pete, it didn't come clear until you posted your research here. And I remember your post not too long ago when you found the same situation. All day I have been bamboozled as to why in the world a long term queenless hive would ever concieve of killing a queen, when that is exactly what they need.

I think (from my own research) that it's mostly a case of biology gone crosswise.  Remember, the bees aren't consciously thinking this through.  All they know is that the pheromones produced by the laying workers are stronger than a virgin queen's pheromones, even though it isn't to their benefit to choose the former over the latter.  A worker is not that much different from a queen -- genetically, they're identical.

I like the thought of slowly overwhelming the laying workers' pheromones by introducing multiple steps of brood into the hive.  Brood produce pheromones that suppress workers, and it gives you a chance to wait until they start naturally producing queen cells, instead of risking a queen's life by dumping her into a pheromone-laden hive.  Very clever.  Maybe not cost-effective, but it sounds to me like it ought to work.

Offline pistolpete

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2015, 02:59:16 am »
My understanding is a bit different.  I believe the drone laying workers in the hive become the de-facto queens.  The bees consider themselves queen right at that point.  So a newly introduced queen is treated as an intruder regardless of her pheromone strength. 
My advice: worth price charged :)

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2015, 09:44:05 am »
My understanding is a bit different.  I believe the drone laying workers in the hive become the de-facto queens.  The bees consider themselves queen right at that point.  So a newly introduced queen is treated as an intruder regardless of her pheromone strength.

   Exactly.. the pheromone they produce makes them think they are queen right.  THere are also not one or two laying workers....
   A laying worker can produce one.. MAYBE two eggs in a day.. so to get cells with multiple eggs in them;



   Means that there are hundreds of workers laying eggs...  In order to fix that, they need the brood to suppress the ability to lay...   adding a queen introduction cage with a new queen "may" work, but all your doing is adding a different pheremone than the one they already have, so it takes longer than if you use Brood Pheremone, and perhaps a combination of the two would be even faster and more dramatic...
   But as Iddee mentioned on another thread.. the time and effort is not usually worth it. You could have half a dozen new hives started and running well by the time you get the situation fixed with the laying workers...  shake them out, and let them beg their way into those up and coming new hives to strengthen them.
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Offline Jen

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2015, 01:59:08 pm »
Although I had no idea of this scenario...this is starting to make sense.   

    I've been keeping a quiet check on the outside of the hive Not Hoping to find a dead queen.

    To reiterate... I took almost all the heavy drone capped frames out of that hive, and brought that hive down to two meds with pulled frames waiting for the new queen.

Don't you think that taking all that drone cell pheromone out of that hive before I introduced the new queen, would change the atmosphere to the positive for the new queen?
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Offline tedh

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2015, 06:28:20 pm »
I'm going to climb out on a limb here Jen and say no.  It sounds to me like the pheromone is coming from the laying workers.  Let's see what the smart folks say.  Ted
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Offline Jen

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2015, 07:18:27 pm »
Hi Ted  :)  Now I hadn't figured that into the equation, thought the scent of all those capped drones was what was making the scent...
Hu... now ya got me scratchin my head  ;) 
     
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Offline iddee

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2015, 07:36:06 pm »
Check them on the weekend. If you have eggs, one per cell, and in the bottom, your queen made it.

Was she marked?
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Offline ledifni

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2015, 07:43:27 pm »
My understanding is a bit different.  I believe the drone laying workers in the hive become the de-facto queens.

Well yes, that's pretty much what I mean :)  Jen's question was why the bees would choose fake queens (drone-laying workers) over a real queen.  What I was trying to explain is that biologically, the other workers are wired to respond to *any* queen pheromones, not just those produced by fertile queens; and they're also wired to prefer smells they're used to over ones they aren't.  So, even though the drone-laying workers aren't real queens, the bees' biological wiring just isn't complex enough to make that distinction, even though the survival of the hive (at this point) depends upon it.

Offline Jen

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2015, 08:42:15 pm »
Iddee- I have it down for Saturday and yes she was marked  :)
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Offline apisbees

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2015, 08:46:36 pm »
And you are missing one key element in getting a long queen less colony to raise a good productive queen. When a colony has no new brood emerging the hive after 2 to 3 weeks lacks young nurse bees that are needed to be able to make the special royal jelly that is needed for the development of a good queen. That is why it takes putting brood into the hive a couple of times before the bees will begin drawing good queen cells, like LazyBkpr does. Unless you are certain the hive has young nurse bees to raise a good queen I would place a hive or nuc in a full size box in its place and shake the bees and let them join the colony with a laying queen. After a few days you can split the combined hive if desired as both will receive bees of all ages and development.
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Offline Yankee11

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Re: 20 Frames Of Drone Brood
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2015, 11:22:41 pm »
I checked my laying worker nuc that I dumped and then inserted a frame with 2 queen cells on it in the nuc box and let them fly back into it.

They did not tear the 2 queen cells down. looks like it worked.