Author Topic: Cordovans & other almond bred queens with excessive laying/short life spans.  (Read 12593 times)

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Offline keeperofthebees

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It would be nice to have a discussion on pollination bees, and different strains that don't fit well with the northern climates.  Some of the strains out there like cordovans are select bred to lay themselves into non-existance to beef up the hive numbers for the frame count ala almond check. 

How can new, as well as seasoned beekeepers avoid the intermingling of their winter stock with short life pollination bees? 

Is it possible to have a no nonsense discussion about short-life pollination bees? 

What breeds of queens are there other than cordovans, that bite the dust early?

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Offline LazyBkpr

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 Are they short lived because of the almond fields or???


  Cordovans are reddish-brown and are bred for gentleness, disease resistance and superior production. Their attractive color and gentle nature make them popular for observation hives Cordovan describes this color trait which is not limited to Italian bees, although most bees with the cordovan trait are advertised as Italian bees. The cordovan coloration is caused by a single recessive gene. If a pure cordovan bee is crossed with a non-cordovan bee, the hybrid daughters will not have the cordovan color.

   afaik the Cordovans are what they used to create the MN Hygienic, and have a similar Lifespan, but they are still based from Itallians so they are not as winter suitable as some other races.
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Offline tecumseh

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well I am quite willing to have a meaningful conversation.... but from the get go some folks need to give up ideas like..

snip..
Some of the strains out there like cordovans are select bred to lay themselves into non-existance to beef up the hive numbers for the frame count ala almond check. 

or perhaps..

snip...
the Cordovans are what they used to create the MN Hygienic, and have a similar Lifespan

tecumseh..
I am not certain where folks gets these kinds of idea.  Quite obviously with a double recessive the selection process (which almost requires II technology) is on the disposition of the double recessive genes required.  NO BEE is selected to lay them selves into a non-existance.  And about the closest Minnesota Hygienic stock is to Cordovan is they are both Italian type bees.

Clearly some bees (races of bees) in Europe were more adapted to southern Europe and some to northern Europe and thinking that one from one end will do well in the other certainly only means you need to think about these consideration a bit more.

A cordovan might not do so well in Minnesota and a Midnight (at least my experience would suggest) will produce nothing in the southern US.

I use to rear a few Cordovans here and if they mated with almost any mite resistant other Italian bee I keep around they did quite well.

I would suggest that what you are really seeing is what Charlie Marzz long ago describe as the difference (approximate and ultimate < and if you don't know what these ideas means then you do need to do a bit of research)  in outcome of queens that will lay at low, medium and high levels of egg production < typically expressed as some maximum eggs laid per day.  to cut to the chase some what and to greatly paraphrase Charlie line of thinking a queen that lays at the lowest level is a dink and no one wants those.    On the other end of the spectrum are extremely high laying queens (Cordovans can be a good example) that lay at high level and never cease < the ultimate outcome here is the queen either poops out early, the hive runs out of stores from producing brood or it collapses from varroa since varroa production and brood production are marching hand in hand.

another analogy....some folks may find a snow blower to be essential but they are not appropriate to this location.




Offline LazyBkpr

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snip...
the Cordovans are what they used to create the MN Hygienic, and have a similar Lifespan

  Tec
I am not certain where folks gets these kinds of idea


    How about, From Marla Spivak and the people that created them?

"With this particular strain we started with Italian/Cordovan bees that had the traits, as far as calmness, production etc that we wanted. From there we simply began to beed for specific Genetic traits. Any line can can be used to start with as long as the selection process remains linear."

"Minnesota Hygenics are often confused as being a separate "race" of Queens or Honey Bee.  It is not.  These bees are merely bred for specific genetic traits.  To breed them, an Italian/Cordovan Queen or a Russian Queen is often used.  There are no set guide lines for the race of bee used.  The breeding is merely for certain specific "traits" in the bees.


   Tec
A cordovan might not do so well in Minnesota

   Me
afaik the Cordovans are what they used to create the MN Hygienic, and have a similar Lifespan, but they are still based from Itallians so they are not as winter suitable as some other races.


  so, we said the same thing, and yet I get slammed for what I said?  Maybe do a little research, and if you find something to prove to me what I have said is wrong, Post it and I will ALWAYS eat my hat and recant what I said, until then, stop trying to twist up words like a politician in a debate with an opponent. Were not on opposing sides, were both on the SAME side!

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Offline jb63

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I had some cordovans and they were very gentle and easy to work with.The yellow jackets liked them too,but out of them I still have two colonies that are part cordovan.
 
I don't know.It was like that when I got here.

Offline tecumseh

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a lazy snip...
Were not on opposing sides, were both on the SAME side!

tecumseh...
ABSOLUTELY correct.... hopefully we are both interested in what is best for the bees and understand that this may also be in the best long term interest of the beekeeper.  hopefully we are all just SHARING information and content here and at least I have never though anyone has all the answers.  heck most of the time I am really taxed just to compose the right question.

and a long long HOWEVER....

I don't see a link to this statement that you attribute to Marla Spivak?  nor do I totally understand what she might mean when she use the term 'this particular strain'?   but I could make a good guess < just off the cuff here I am guessing that 'this strain' is actually in reference to the long term reputation of minnesota hygienics as being a bit hostile at least for the hobby or novice beekeeper.  'this strain' then being a cross to limit the problem.  which is basically what beekeepers who breed bees do... that is they see some problem large or small and add in something to eliminate or decrease the problem. 

just for your information the Minnesota Hygienic program was around long before Marla Spivak was around and long long before anyone ever hear of a russian bee.  there was critical information generated by this program when I was new to beekeeping and when no one knew Marla Spivak.    she inherited but definitely did not invent the program.  None of this timing question diminishes Marla's contribution to the program... the good ones build on what has come before... and she with some help in basic genetic understanding and technology has moved that program in a positive direction. 

the origin of the minnesota hygienic program was a small number of hives collected from commercial apiary, largely of Italian bee origin, that displayed high resistance to American Foul Brood < at this point long long ago no one knew the mechanism at work here.  prior to the era of antibiotics this was a GENETIC SOLUTION to American Foul Brood.  the trait suggested in the text is a quantifiable test to check for the uncapping and removal of dead brood... basically you freeze a circular patch of brood with liquid nitrogen and 24 hour later see how much of this dead brood has been remove.  it is a repeatable QUANTIFIABLE trait which really means that the subjective nature of people is largely eliminated from the selection process. 

I would suggest that neither the minnesota hygienic nor the russians nor the cordovans are a 'race' of bees.  they are either a combination (essentially a mutt) or a subset of some 'race' of bees. 

not so surprisingly I see no mention of ANYONE purposefully breeding bees for a short life span. 

SPEAKING MORE DIRECTLY TO WHAT I SUPECT IS THE PROBLEM HERE > after some considerable conversation with several beekeepers (all much more experience at bee keeping and bee breeding than myself) and some of them have formed the OPINION that there could be a good deal of selection (with an epicenter in California) that is more based on a bee hive response to a syrup can than any other quality.  the APPROXIMATE solution here is that as long as the syrup bucket continues to flow the hive prospers but when the syrup bucked runs low and then runs dry the ULTIMATE solution is the hive quickly goes into decline and then dies.  add in a bit of selection for maximum brood rearing, follow along with Carlie Marzz undeniable logic and you accelerate the ULTIMATE solution to this process.

This ULTIMATE outcome is EXACTLY the same as keeperofthebees describes but the PROCESS of getting there is not.  That is the primary difference between my own view and what appears to be keeperofthebees and your own view.  Basically SELECTION (by either beekeepers or bee breeders) can be either well thought out or not.. purposeful or not.

as far as my own personal experience and feed back from customers one of the longest living queens I have ever produced was a cross between a minnesota hygienic queen (via II stock) and drones from mite resistance stock I have here (essentially BWeaver stock).   by the customers own report this queen live almost 4.5 years until by accident he squished her during an inspection.  he also admitted to me he cried once he realized what he had done... strange thing for a grown man to do... don't ya' think?  Crying over a bug... how odd???    beyond selling a few of these here and there my real purpose in obtaining the Minnesota Hygienic stock was I wanted to completely eliminate the use of TM in my hives and this was a means for me to hedge my bet against the downsides or uncertainty of eliminating this use of this product in my own hives.  if the minnesota hygienic program had not been closed (participation in the program tightly controlled) I likely would still be rearing some of these. 

Offline LazyBkpr

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I'm not going to disagree with any of that Tec. I don't have enough experience in the area to even begin to compete with your background, not that I would because I tend to agree with most of it. My only complaint is that I mentioned that Cordovan was one of the strains used. My insinuation was that I had no knowledge that they were short lived or as Keeper said,

  "What breeds of queens are there other than cordovans, that bite the dust early?"
 
   My only goal was to clarify what was meant or find out why they died early.. Insecticides or Fungicides from the pollen fields for instance? Was it a personal observation or one Keeper read somewhere? So I was a little bugged and confused with the statement.
    "I am not certain where folks gets these kinds of idea."

   When in fact I was thinking at that time that...
   " NO BEE is selected to lay them selves into a non-existance."

   We agree on more points than we disagree, not that I am claiming my limited knowledge requires vindication.  I don't really care when Marla started with the program or anything else about it. I knew she was part of it and in my perusal of multiple dozen articles that is one of the things I had found..  I only know what little I do from reading, and that in itself does not make it proof or fact. At that point all it is, is knowledge waiting to be proven right or wrong in my own mind.

   
  "I don't see a link to this statement that you attribute to Marla Spivak?  nor do I totally understand what she might mean when she use the term 'this particular strain'?
   As it was just something I read, I can only ASSUME she was talking about the MN Hygienic line.. whichever one she or they were working on when she said it. I doubt it had anything to do with reputation or hostility since she was talking about the bees used in the breeding process. From before her time with the project or During her time I did not seek further.


   "I would suggest that neither the minnesota hygienic nor the russians nor the cordovans are a 'race' of bees.  they are either a combination (essentially a mutt) or a subset of some 'race' of bees."

   Agreed.

   "not so surprisingly I see no mention of ANYONE purposefully breeding bees for a short life span."

   Nope, me either, which is why I was curious.

   I do know a beek with MN Hygienic bees, IF, they are what he claims. they are not hostile, and they are not short lived as far as I know. This beek that has them is my point of reference and why I mentioned them at all, as he claims they are from Cordovans, which were the topic of discussion.
 As far as the welfare bees.. they wouldn't live long here once the feeding stops and the supers go on.

   So I also agree that Hostility and dependance on a feeder are NOT in the interest of the bees nor are those traits in the long term interest of the beekeeper.

   SO... I guess it all comes down to understanding what it was that set off the statement about not knowing where we get those ideas?  It sort of caught me off guard when none of the ideas you were talking about were insinuated by what I said? Still confused, even after all that.
 
   
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Offline brooksbeefarm

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Back in 1964 or 1965? when i got my first bees it wasn't unusual to have 4 to 5 year old queens that still had a good laying pattern. The things we worried about was foul brood, wax moths (weak hives), rarely a case of chalk brood, robber bees, and mice. Just about everyone i knew growing up went bare footed in the summer and when you seen a dutch clover patch, you watch where you stepped, nowaday if there's not a beekeeper close by. you wouldn't worry about it. There were feral bees everywhere back then and most people got started in bees by catching swarms, the reason was, nobody had money to spare. Queens started getting weaker in the late 70's and 80's due to the invasion of T- mites and V- mites new diseases and Shb's, there are still some feral hives around, but few and far between, and if it wasn't for beekeepers there would be even less. I think (JMO) a person would be hard pressed to find a pure bred bee of any kind, of course they can claim they are 8). Jack

Offline tecumseh

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a lazybks snip..
SO... I guess it all comes down to understanding what it was that set off the statement about not knowing where we get those ideas?  It sort of caught me off guard when none of the ideas you were talking about were insinuated by what I said? Still confused, even after all that.

tecumseh...
I have rightfully been accused on many occasions of being ruthlessly honest.. a bit too straight ahead and darn the torpedoes kind of fellow.  at one time I paid a large price for that but at the center of things that is who I am.  I am also totally unabashed at apologizing for being a bit cruel when I should have been more sympathetic and understanding... this is something I guess my parents taught me that grown folks do.  Anyways I did not mean to slam you or curtail your participation in this forum.  That was not my intention and I do apologize for my poor use of words.  I do hope you will accept my apology with a forgiving heart?
 

Offline brooksbeefarm

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Offline LazyBkpr

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a lazybks snip..
SO... I guess it all comes down to understanding what it was that set off the statement about not knowing where we get those ideas?  It sort of caught me off guard when none of the ideas you were talking about were insinuated by what I said? Still confused, even after all that.

tecumseh...
I have rightfully been accused on many occasions of being ruthlessly honest.. a bit too straight ahead and darn the torpedoes kind of fellow.  at one time I paid a large price for that but at the center of things that is who I am.  I am also totally unabashed at apologizing for being a bit cruel when I should have been more sympathetic and understanding... this is something I guess my parents taught me that grown folks do.  Anyways I did not mean to slam you or curtail your participation in this forum.  That was not my intention and I do apologize for my poor use of words.  I do hope you will accept my apology with a forgiving heart?

   If I had a problem with blunt I would not be married, nor would I have remained married for 25 years!  I do on occasion get aggravated, with certain attitudes, or perceived attitudes, but the underlying goal is to understand.  I want to understand if, when, how, and why I was wrong so I can be wrong less often in the future.
   So its not about getting an apology with me, its about getting the answers so I can modify or change what I believe.
   Blunt is fine, but please engage teaching mode at the same time!

   Side note;
    If there is any ONE thing being married 25 years has taught me, it is how to deal with being WRONG!  BUT, I have never come to grips with is being WRONG, and learning/being trained RIGHT!!!  And then being WRONG again, when I did it RIGHT!  I know this will only make sense to the married men.
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Online iddee

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Lazy, if you don't quit being so mean to you wife on these posts, I'm going to email her how to remove a valve stem from the rear tractor wheel when it is 300 yards away from the barn.... Or something else just as sinister.   :o :o ;D ;D :laugh:
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Offline LazyBkpr

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 :o

   Randleman, N. C. is NOT that far away Iddee!!!!       O:-)
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Online iddee

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 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
“Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”
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Offline Zweefer

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   Side note;
    If there is any ONE thing being married 25 years has taught me, it is how to deal with being WRONG!  BUT, I have never come to grips with is being WRONG, and learning/being trained RIGHT!!!  And then being WRONG again, when I did it RIGHT!  I know this will only make sense to the married men.

My Grandfather always summed it up like this : there are times when you want to be right, and times when you want to be married.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 07:42:30 am by Zweefer »
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Offline LazyBkpr

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heh, very true, your Gramp was a wise man Zweef!
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Offline Perry

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At the NSBA (Nova Scotia Beekeepers Association) we are funding 2 research projects.
One of them is going to be on Queens we have been getting from Hawaii. The high rate of supercedure within a month or two has to be addressed. On that note they are going to sample half an order of queens for sperm viability before and after the have been introduced. The thought is that sperm in the queen's spermatheca is dying after a short period of time. I hope the study goes through.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Interested in hearing that Perry.
   I have been following the research coming from NCSU.... (David Tarpy)
   Seeing a lot of supercedure and queens failing early the research was of interest to me...
      They have found that queens mated MORE are more acceptable to the bees...
    IE; a queen mated 4 times is acceptable..   A queen mated 20 times is ADORED....
   Touching, grooimg and all around care is much more apparent and often with a queen that has mated multiple times as opposed to few times...     Apparently it causes a change in pheromone given off by the queen..
   I am no expert, but I would in my own limited way attribute a LOT of what I am seeing as far as queen failure and supercedure to a lack of sufficient mating...
   On a more personal note.. i hope they can replicate the pheromone of a queen mated 40 times... so I can spray it on JUST before my wife gets home and see if she is more touchy feely, groomy etc....
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Offline Perry

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If it works, can I buy some?  ;D
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Offline Zweefer

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I have found the scent of laundry detergent / dish soap works (providing those respective chores are completed before she gets home)  ;D
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