Author Topic: Hive manipulations  (Read 8807 times)

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Offline Zweefer

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Hive manipulations
« on: August 25, 2014, 10:22:52 pm »
I was reading a book, and it suggested the following for hive management...




I was wondering how many people actually follow this?  I am specifically wondering about the midsummer reduction...
For those who do not use a queen excluder, what do you do?
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Offline Zweefer

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2014, 11:11:16 am »
I guess to clarify, what do the members on this forum do in terms of hive manipulation / reduction etc. to prepare for winter?  This will be my first winter, and would love to be able to claim a zero loss rate  ;D
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Offline Garden Hive

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2014, 12:23:46 pm »
I'll contribute just a short.
It will depend on your location (regional) for how much you have above the brood chamber. River will be the closest to you and offer some input. But the diagram is very accurate in theory and practical application.

It comes down to space that either is occupied buy bees or will be occupied. When you pull your honey supers off (timing)  and there is a die back of bees and they fill two deeps, then why give them any more space. The emerging brood area in the upper deep, hopefully gets back filled with fall flow. If a strong flow is on or likely, you can put the super or 's back on and hope for a refill  ;D. If it doesn't get refilled or you don't place it back, then i hope for the entire upper deep to get backfilled and bees are all in the lower deep by late fall and go into winter like this. If there is not a sufficient flow, then you've taken too much honey from them. Have to feed or downsize the colony and provide with surplus from another. Feeding, I don't like !!!
So I save frames of honey in the freezer. My climate is much milder then yours.

To answer part of your question.....Queen exluder has zero effect for prep into winter. If there is brood in that box then there is not enough honey to take and remove any from that box. Some circumstance could effect options.

I hope this was not confusing. Tim

Offline riverbee

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2014, 08:28:12 pm »
tim has some good advice zweefer.

right now, our bees, yours and mine here in wisconsin are and have been preparing for winter months. they are or have been back-filling the 2nd deep and pushing the queen down as they do. your carni queens should be slowing down a bit.  drones will be dragged out and not allowed back in.  your top deep needs to be heavy with honey or syrup, and the outside frames of the bottom deep.  the cluster will begin late fall/ winter there, and as winter progresses they will move up, and will need the stores above through winter.  if there is not enough stores, then feed syrup until and no later then mid october, (weather and temp dependant, they need to dry the syrup so as not to cause moisture problems in the hive later) and after that, place a shim on to add whatever feed directly over them or add a fondant board.  i don't use fondant boards, i like to place feed directly over the bees with or without a shim under the inner cover, without the barrier of a board.

i know you don't have this option, but what i also do is, if i find a hive that is short on stores, (pretty rare with the russkies) i will either feed them back medium frames of uncapped honey with a high moisture content, or deep frames of honey from a previous winter dead out above the inner cover.

in the spring i don't reverse as the diagram shows.  the bees move up, and they move down, i have had queens on occasion who didn't move down and wound up reversing, but very few.  i place an excluder on when the supers go on with drawn comb for our first flow, dandelions.  if i am wanting drawn comb, foundation goes on without the excluder until the foundation is drawn, then the excluder goes on on top the second box.  that excluder never gets moved from the top of the second deep.   there are times i have pulled it off when the first super is full or near full.  for the most part i use the excluder because i typically have comb honey frames in and don't want the queens in the supers, and really don't want queens laying in my supers, and they will.  the diagram shows moving the excluder above the first deep mid summer.  i disagree with this.  the bees know what to do and when, and imho with a strong colony, or any healthy colony, good queen, you will be confining your queen and might contribute to swarming.  also your queen needs space to lay up winter bees.

i hope this helps!
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Offline Perry

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2014, 08:38:44 pm »
I reverse in the spring if the bees haven't already started raising brood in the lower deep. If they have I don't reverse.
As far as winter prep, I let the bees do what they do, nothing special in the way of manipulations. The only thing I might do is if they are light I may throw some full frames of honey in, or lay some fondant over the inner cover hole for winter.
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Offline Zweefer

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2014, 09:21:15 am »
Thank you all for the responses.  I guess my current concern then, with this being my first year, is when they should be dropping down to one box.  I am still seeing a lot of brood in the upper deep...

Garden Hive - yes that made sense.  it did answer what i was asking in terms of the excluder (I don't have one).  thank you  :)

Riverbee - your timeline helps a bit with this - as far as when to help feed, and when to stop, thanks.

Perry - how fast do they go through the fondant if they need to tap into it (how often do you check it in the winter, have you ever had to replace with more)?
Keeping of bees is like the direction of sunbeams.
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Offline riverbee

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2014, 12:14:43 pm »
zweefer,  i wouldn't be concerned about the brood in the upper deep. the queens have laid/are laying winter bees.  at some point you will see a reduction of the brood nest above and the frames being back-filled.

also feed 2:1 syrup, not 1:1 now.
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Offline Zweefer

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2014, 03:17:14 pm »
also feed 2:1 syrup, not 1:1 now.

Harold (Mentor) told me that 2:1 was what you put on any time after August.  He said it was easier to convert to honey, and would help with whatever comb was left to be drawn. so already covered  :yes:
Keeping of bees is like the direction of sunbeams.
Henry David Thoreau

Offline riverbee

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2014, 03:30:06 pm »
great!.... ;)
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Offline Perry

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2014, 06:16:22 pm »
I can check once a month to see if they need more, and yes, I have had to add some on occasion.
"It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor."      
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2014, 09:49:15 pm »

   I typically do not check the hives after the end of November, until/unless we get a 50 degree day..  it has happened.. Wife and I went horseback riding about five years ago in January with a temp of 64 degrees..  Last winter, I didnt get into the hives from mid November until the end of February..  it was 0 or below that ENTIRE time, often with -50 wind chill..   I put the sugar on top when I winterize for that reason..  with most of the state reporting a 70% loss  I only lost One (1) hive, and that hive I expected to lose.. 
   Each hive had 3 to 4 lbs of sugar on the top bars. EVERY hive was about half way through that sugar when I opened in Feb..   It was an unusual winter, but, If you prepare for the worst, your not caught with your pants down when the worst hits.  can see pics under the wintering section of my website.
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Offline Jen

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2014, 11:02:56 pm »
Scott- are you talking drivert sugar?
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2014, 10:45:22 pm »
Nope. Plain sugar from the local store. Drivert does not have the anti clumping agents in it and is used for icings and fondant etc..  Good stuff as I understand it, but none of the nearby stores carry it, and they DO have 25 lb bags of normal granulated sugar..  I have been putting normal granulated sugar on top of hives since about 1977.. still waiting for someone to come up with something cheaper that works as well
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Offline tecumseh

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2014, 05:01:14 am »
might I ask Zweefer from which book/reference did you obtain the sketch?  < nice sketch which I myself could use in presentation but the application of this I would suspect is highly related to location.  naturally some basic bee biology will not vary by geographical location.

Offline Jen

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2014, 12:53:16 pm »
Scott, from what I have learned to date about drivert sugar, is that it's easier for the bees to digest, that the anti clumping agent could compromise the bees gut. But I don't have solid evidence of this either. Would make a good thread, think I'll do that.

Also, so if your hives appear to have ample honey stores, you put sugar in as well just to be sure? I think I read that in another post..
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2014, 09:48:37 pm »
Yes...
   Last winter was the perfect example Mrs Jen..  The bees had at or over 100 lbs of honey in reserve for every hive.. but it was SO COLD for SO LONG that they stovepiped.. Meaning, they went STRAIGHT up, without moving to the sides to reach ALL of the honey..   Had I not put the sugar on top i would have lost every single hive I had..   Every one of them was well into the sugar by the time I could open the hives in February..
   Every winter is not like that thankfully. In fact, last winter was quite abnormal, so MOST beekeepers do not, and did not prepare for such severity, and they paid the price in lost colonies to the tune of 70% loss across the state..
   
   I like the sugar, or sugar cakes because I can dissolve what they do not use into spring syrup..  Most springs will find them still in the honey and not touching the sugar, and thats perfectly splendid..  The sugar gets removed, broken up and dissolved, nothing wasted.. But when they do need it, they have it..
   By putting it on in November when I button them up for the winter, I have the confidence to LEAVE THEM ALONE until mid to late February, or even March if I have to.
   It is part selfishness, and part pre prevention..  Selfish because I do NOT want to go check my hives when there is a -40 wind chill factor..  I will even blatantly admit I do not want to go check my hives when there is a 20 degree wind chill..  Preventative Starvation Preparedness Prevention allows for Cold weather Avoidance and Coat Donning Procrastination.

   Mostly its just how I was taught to do it..  When you have done it a specific way you KNOW works for over 37 years its hard to change.
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Offline Jen

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2014, 10:04:52 pm »
I see  :)  are sugar cakes something that you make?
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2014, 10:14:14 pm »

  Yep!!
     I take normal sugar.. Add JUST enough water to get all the sugar damp..  It does NOT take much water to do this..   Run a mixer through it until it is all .. damped?  hehe..   Pour it into an aluminum turkey pan and spread out so its about an inch and a half thick.   Cut a groove in it half way..  Put in the oven, set on 200 degrees with the door JUST barely cracked open and allow it to dehydrate..  I shut the oven off when I go to bed, take it out in the morning and remove it from the pan..
   It will still be a little soft and easy to break if handled roughly..   Set aside in pantry or garage etc until ready to use..  Doesnt mold or go bad..  It does get harder and easier to handle as it ages a little.   Plunk one slab on the top bars.. No need for newspaper etc..  It will STILL absorb hive moisture just like the granulated. Its just easier to handle and less of a mess to clean in the spring.

   Planning to try it adding a few drops of HBH to it but have not ordered any more.. yet..
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Offline Jen

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2014, 10:37:19 pm »
Thanks! I like that idea of HBH  :)
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Offline Zweefer

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Re: Hive manipulations
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2014, 09:31:31 pm »
might I ask Zweefer from which book/reference did you obtain the sketch?  < nice sketch which I myself could use in presentation but the application of this I would suspect is highly related to location.  naturally some basic bee biology will not vary by geographical location.

The Book is Honey bee hobbyist : the care and keeping of bees / by Norman Gary.


Keeping of bees is like the direction of sunbeams.
Henry David Thoreau