question to the first or second year bee keeper...

[LazyBkpr]

Iddee

Sorry, but I don’t agree with you. Every hive needs a little ventilation air coming in moisture going out the top to survive. You guys down south have no idea how to keep bees in the frozen north. If you get 2 inches of snow you probably shut down your state. I keep my bee hives cleaned out because I know what mother nature can bring here. March is coming. Its probably the worst month of the year for weather. Beekeepers probably loose 50 percent of their hives during the month of March all from beekeeper errors.

   A lot depends on how you keep your bees..  A few years ago I may have agreed with you, but after having bees in outyards that I JUST had NO WAY to get to when we have deep drifts.. I have found that they do as well or better when i do not OPEN the lower entrances..  i have UPPER entrances for a reason, and that reason is ventilation, and the ability to get out and do a cleansing flight..  If its COLD and the wind is howling with snow drifted over the top of the hive, the bees ar eas SNUG as they can possibly be..  shovel them out and you let the COLD back to them again..   What would you rather have...  30 ish degrees burried in a snow drift, or - 50 degree wind chill beating at your hive entrances?
   Having seen the difference, I am with Iddee.. Let it SNOW and keep those hives burried...  If were going to suddenly have a 50 degree day..   THEN, i might go at least un cover the top entrance...  Packing a shovel on snowshoes for three miles is not my idea of fun any more...
 

   It is a sobering thing to realize your bees at the outyards do better than your bees at home..   

[efmesch]

Ted, that was a beautiful post.

Ray says:  "The forums are a great SOCIAL network," 
I think you'll find that, just like the bees, the forums have their seasonal activities.  In the winter, for lack of being busy with the hives, we turn to the more social aspect of communicating.  Come the spring and summer, things get down to the "real" stuff. 
I dare say, that the social aspect of the forum builds a community of keeps who understand and cooperate with one another (in spite of the vast distances that separate us) and makes the forum much more valuable when the time for "business" comes around.

I'm sure you've noticed, NEVER an insulting word from anyone.  [In spite of some joking around.]  You just don't talk derogatorily to your friends---and hopefully, it makes the forum just that much more valuable to newbies.

Ted spotted that special "want to help" personality of the forum, and I think that spirit of encouragement for the starting beekeeper is one of the answers Tec was looking for in his question.

[Ray]

Thanks efmesch for jumping in to defend this forum.
I enjoy this forum and have learned a lot here and on the other ones.

[Ray4852]

Scott,
 my hives are fully protected from wind and heavy snow. I use open screen bottom boards with slatted racks. I would have to be crazy to let my hives lay buried in snow. You have no idea what kind of environment I keep my bees in. do you get 200 inches of snow every year. I let a commercial beekeeper keep his hives in the same area I keep mine now. He got tired of loosing 60 percent of his hives every year. He moved them out to a different yard. I learned a lot from his mistakes. He was like you and iddee. snow wont hurt them. It helps keep them warm. Yes it kept them warm. The upper entrance froze solid. No place for the moisture to go. Come spring he’d  open them up and find his hives dead. I keep my bees in one yard. I have to walk about 200ft to get to them. If I cant walk thru 4 ft of snow to help them get thru the winter I’m a lazy beekeeper. I haven’t lost one hive yet during the last two winters. Its not luck its the extra work I put into my hives to help them get thru the winter. I keep telling you guys on this board about March weather. If your hives are under snow now and we get a storm in March your bees are going to die. If you want to let them lay in the snow. That’s ok with me. Tomorrow I’m going out to walk thru 4 ft of snow again to clean them out, talk to my bees and let them know they are almost home hang in there. I'm getting ready now for the big blast of snow we get every March. This winter wont give up with out a fight. Its going to last right to the end. Go to the garden forum under 2015. you will see how I protect my hives from hard wind. The snow is almost to the top of those wind blocks now.

[Bakersdozen]

tec- I think, keep it seasonal.  Teach or learn only what you need at that time while looking ahead to the next phase of beekeeping.  For most, the starting point would be: 1.purchasing and installing a package of bees.  2. Feeding 3. Releasing the queen. 4. When to check for queen acceptance and is she laying? etc. 5. Doing inspections.  6. Adding hive bodies and supering.  A teacher could go back even further to basic equipment and basic wooden ware.   You get the idea.  No need to fill a beginners mind with trap outs just yet.  That will happen in due time and probably on their own terms.
 
As with a lot of things the terminology slows the beginner down.  It's hard to absorb information in a class room setting if the mind is racing to remember what the basics are.  So, maybe a bare bones beginner class on the hive components, the different castes of bees, equipment and woodenware.

It has been said repeatedly, you need more than one hive.  I found the more hives I had at one time, the more I learned.  That's where a mentor with hives would be really great for a beginner to work with.  If no one wants to mentor, offer your labor at some point(s) during the year.

[LazyBkpr]

If driving snow and -50 degree temps wont freeze an upper entrance solid I doubt a decently strong hive will have a frozen over upper entrance if buried in snow. It doesnt work that way, there is always a hollow completely around those hives. The warmth rising would quicklyu re open the entrance once they were buried.     And besides, I said;    A lot depends on how you keep your bees.. That also translates to your environment and type of bees you keep. But if you want to play it that way, I can only go by what I have heard..  The first that comes to mind is Michael Palmer in the Champlain Valley who very much prefers his hives to be buried.. several thousand of them in fact..  When they have a warm day coming up, he carries a long handled shovel to the yards so he can poke the shovel through the snow to find the hives..


   As far as i am concerned, how you do it, is fine if it works for you.

   You have no idea what kind of environment I keep my bees in.

  My post was just pointing out what I do now and why I have changed my mind/method.  200 Inches of snow?  No, we get 40 inches, sometimes 20, sometimes 90, that builds itself into 20 foot drifts because of the 50 + mph winds.  20 ft = 240 inches, does that count?



   If your hives are under snow now and we get a storm in March your bees are going to die.

   Why??  That has happened to bees I have tended for, and now keep for over 20 years..   Since 1977 in fact, so thats 28 years...     having a storm in March has NOTHING to do with having snow over the hives now? So... i am a little confused?  I had 6 foot drifts over my hives two weeks ago, a week later they were flying taking cleansing flights, so what is it that will kill them in March?

   Apparently, you have no idea how we keep bees out here if you think a wind break like that will work out here.

    Here, a wind break is placed where you want the biggest drift, and then that drift begins to build on itself. it will continue to grow bigger and bigger..   If you want to walk three miles to check your bees, beating your way through 20 foot drifts, then please be my guest.
   I could mention my hives are about 130 yards apart here at home.. to check them, i have to punch through those tall drifts. so in effect, i have to go further, through deeper snow, but this isnt supposed to be about walking to school in bare feet, up hill both ways.  Just an exchange of ideas that work in different locations.

   What I do, what Iddee mentioned WORKS HERE.. That in no way implies that what you do does NOT work there. If what you do works where you live.. GREAT  Keep doing it! BUT DONT tell me that what I do wont work, because your wrong on more levels than you can imagine.

[Ray4852]

Amen

[riverbee]

tec asked a great question of us all, seems we have veered off and gone off on an argument over keeping bees in snow country.

my opinion? start a new thread and argue about it there. let's not continue to argue over or have a discussion about something that has been brought off topic to this thread or tec's question.





 

[Zweefer]

...and... bringing it back.  Gong into my second year -  I did a ton of research and reading before I started.  After a while all the books tended to blend together.  They helped with the terminology, and some of the interesting facts (queens don't have a stinger, the different jobs workers have throughout their lives, etc.) but none of that really prepared me for actually keeping bees. 
I could talk a talk, but still found I had no idea.

A mentor is a huge help.  My situation was a little bit different in that he had some serious personal issues come up right when i got mine, and was unavailable to give me any hands on help / advice the entire year.   That's where this forum came in.  I was able to send pictures and get several responses.   From them I could better decide on a path I wanted to take.  Might not have been the "best" or "correct" one, but it was a decision nonetheless, and that was better than where I would have been without this resource. Both the mentor and this forum filled that "you can do it!" need that was brought up by Ted.  I don't think that can be stressed enough.

I also joined a local beekeeping association.  There was some help there, but unfortunately, the club is still building and finding its feet.- we have a clear vision of where we want to be, and it will be a much better environment for newcomers. That being said, I could not emphasize enough how important it is to at least know one other local beekeeper, and the clubs / associations will accomplish this.  As was alluded to earlier what works somewhere else might not be the best where you are.  Local experience is always weighted a bit more in my book.

The internet is nice, but once again, it is like the books - it can give a rough idea, but will not help as much as hands on experience will.  When i watched youtube videos, it was still rather detached for me.  it gave me an idea of what to look for / expect, but still just wasn't real.

So... what would i suggest for the new keepers?  Get a mentor, join a local organization, and get some bees (2 hives minimum).  Everything else is icing on the cake.

[iddee]

RB, I think it was debated quite professionally by lazy and Ray, and Ray ended it like a gentleman. I think it is done, and doesn't need to go any farther.

PS. Zweefer, a queen does have a stinger. A non-barbed stinger, so she can sting more than once.

[riverbee]

debated professionally or not....off topic. took away from and takes away from tec's original question.

and thanks zweefer for following up.

[iddee]

That I won't disagree with. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

Again, I say, first year, relax and familiarize yourself with the bees and their habits, Second year, decide the path you want to take.

Selling honey,
selling bees,
selling queens,
Or just keeping a couple hives for fun.
You will be surprised how much you learn once you are one with the bee.

[Zweefer]

RB, I think it was debated quite professionally by lazy and Ray, and Ray ended it like a gentleman. I think it is done, and doesn't need to go any farther.

PS. Zweefer, a queen does have a stinger. A non-barbed stinger, so she can sting more than once.

As soon as I posted, I knew someone would bust me on that...   too late to even edit it correctly

[Slowmodem]

Again, I say, first year, relax and familiarize yourself with the bees and their habits, Second year, decide the path you want to take.

Selling honey,
selling bees,
selling queens,
Or just keeping a couple hives for fun.

I would add "All of the above" to that list.   

(That's what I'd like to do one of these days)

[brooksbeefarm]

I found when i started beekeeping the terminology used in beekeeping was the biggest thing to understand what the older beekeepers were talking about, When we have our bee club classes i have new members ask such simple things as, what is drawn frames of foundation, whats a nuc, what do they mean washboarding, ?? ect. i could go on but i think everyone knows what i'm talking about, i try not to laugh because i remember how it was when i started. You can read the books and get an idea, but it's not like having a mentor and do hands on. JMHO. Jack.
PS. I learned alot from the school of hard knocks also, those kind you don't forget.

[pistolpete]

I think the best thing for a new beek is watching a mentor work their bees.  I think it has to be in person.  I learned more about bee keeping in a half an hour with my mentor Otto as he opened one hive for me, than in two months of reading books and forums.   Around here bee courses include field work with the instructor, I've never taken one though.

[LazyBkpr]

LOL   We all know you meant DRONE instead of QUEEN Zweef.

  PP;
   I think the best thing for a new beek is watching a mentor work their bees.


   I have to agree..  It used to mesmerize me.. To this day I cannot handle a frame of bees like my mentor once did.

[Papakeith]

Since you said that, papa, I'll say something I have wanted to say for a couple of days.

I would never remove the snow from the hives when the temp is below 40 F.

Thanks Iddee,  I'll take all of the help I can.  Let me explain my thinking though. 
Pulling the cover is not my first choice.
I know that this colony and a few others went into winter very light.  Seemed that no matter how much I fed they wouldn't put on weight.  I waited for the warmest day I could.  30 degrees(ish) and only pulled enough snow from around the top to allow me to throw some more feed on.  I wasn't in there breaking up the cluster.
Plus, it snowed another foot the next day so they are back to being snug as a bug.

I also feel like I should clarify my mentor statement too.  After two or three  years of beekeeping I've managed to become VP of our local club. So I have plenty of people to ask questions of.  I've offered to help people tend their hives but, so far, haven't gotten any call backs to swing by to help.  In their defense, my free time on weekends is limited because of my schedule. 
What I was lamenting was the difficulty in getting people out to take a look at my hives.  Another set of experienced eyes to look and tell me that I'm doing the best I can or suggest to me ways to improve. 
In lieu of that, I read, I experiment, I observe and form my own opinion of how I'm doing.  This forum, even when I go for a period of time not posting much, is invaluable to me. 
Alright, I've rambled enough

[iddee]

That's why I hesitated to post it. I felt like you are too proficient to have each little detail pointed out, but your post gave me the opportunity to get that bit of info out to the public so others could see it. They aren't going to fly before it gets above 40 F., so the cover will keep the temp up around freezing, rather than below zero.

[Zweefer]

thanks for having my back Lazy...         :'(