Worldwide Beekeeping

Beekeeping => Raising Queens => Topic started by: Jen on May 05, 2017, 01:38:54 am

Title: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Jen on May 05, 2017, 01:38:54 am
Today I went to a friend’s house to show her how to mark her 3 queens. She’s a 40 year beekeeper, doesn’t have good vision anymore but still wants to do her own beekeeping, she simply wants to spot the queen when she splits. We practiced on drones first, then she did the first queen, all went well. Moved to the second hive, gave the queen a nice neon yellow mark, put her into a wooden queen cage to dry for about three minutes, then lifted the wire netting and she went limp, looked like she was dead. We were distraught! But kept watching her… 
Queen didn’t move for about 3 minutes. Then, all of a sudden, her abdomen started pumping, and slowly over a couple minutes she came back to life and was crawling around the cage. A great sigh of relief. We tipped the wooden cage, she crawled out and went into the frames. We waited a couple minutes and pulled the frame up to see if the girls still excepted her. They surrounded her and started to take care of her again.
Then, we went to hive 3, same scenario. Marked her, she went limp and in a couple minutes came back.
What happens here when the queen goes limp like that? Shock maybe? Fright? Playing possum?

Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Green bee on May 05, 2017, 02:05:42 am
You ever heard of fainting goats before? I think you may have some fainting bees!! :o ;D ;D
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Perry on May 05, 2017, 06:30:01 am
I have actually heard of queens doing this very thing, fainting. :yes:
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: blueblood on May 05, 2017, 08:28:39 am
After reading this, I remembered that wasps breath through their skin.  Well, honeybees breath through holes in their thorax.  It's my opinion that those air holes are fully or partially covered when the paint is applied.  She either adjust to less holes or somehow the holes with paint on them open up after she breaths through them?  Check out the 10th paragraph in the article below.

http://www.insectidentification.org/external-anatomy-of-honey-bees.asp

Also, I found this article from New Zealand that speaks about being careful about blocking the spiracles (breathing holes) when marking queens.

 https://books.google.com/books?id=HsD5y5Y71c8C&pg=PA127&lpg=PA127&dq=painting+honeybee+queen+can+block+breathing&source=bl&ots=Ix2Cfxw1Vp&sig=2Shgm32PzTt1olGahuxYje8wQ8E&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjSjI2W4djTAhVp6IMKHQ4_BiMQ6AEIQDAI#v=onepage&q=painting%20honeybee%20queen%20can%20block%20breathing&f=false
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Jen on May 05, 2017, 11:53:53 am
Wow blueblood! That is an amazing piece of info there! I like my queens marked as well because I can't stand for that long searching for the queen due to arthritis in my spine. And if you have a hive that is three deeps the queen can simply keep moving down as you take the deeps apart. Can be a long wait to find her. Actually I have done quite well with marked queens staying alive for the long haul. I'll be thinking on this... Maybe just make the marked dot a little smaller.

By the way, so glad to see you around again, miss you vids and sweet daughter too ;)
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: blueblood on May 05, 2017, 01:18:41 pm
It was a surprise to me too! I didn't realize they breathed through their thorax either.

Thanks, I am trying to get back in the habit of hanging around better.  That sweet daughter is growing up fast! She is 14 now!  My oldest daughter is marrying this December and starting student teaching.  My second daughter just finished her second year in brain and behavioral science at Purdue.  The third daughter is finishing her Junior year in high school.  It goes so, so quick!
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Les on May 05, 2017, 01:59:58 pm
Wow, the things we learn beekeeping!
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Jen on May 05, 2017, 02:59:28 pm
No Kidding Les!

So what I want to know now is: Why do the commercial queen breeders, Dadant, Koenen Bees, Etc. mark and sell their queens? Knowing that that the thorax is where the queen breaths? I marked 7 hives last year with a pink dot, and all of them survived the rest of the summer and winter. Since this spring all of my pink queens have swarmed, I know that because the guy who picks up my swarms tells me every time that he now has another pink queen. To Funny.

Anyway, none of the queens I marked last year went limp.. so curious
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Les on May 05, 2017, 05:09:34 pm
Was it the same brand of paint?  Different color tham last year?
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Jen on May 05, 2017, 05:33:39 pm
Hi Les, same brand different color. But I have used different colors before.. weird
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Lburou on May 05, 2017, 07:32:38 pm
The only other factor I know is whether or not the cage was in direct sun while waiting for the paint to dry...Queens can expire in two or three minutes in direct sunlight on a warm day.  :)
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Jen on May 05, 2017, 09:11:18 pm
Lee, Don't I Know That! Fried one of my queens last season. Devastating!

We were very careful to not expose her to the sun.
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Lburou on May 06, 2017, 03:10:02 pm
Lee, Don't I Know That! Fried one of my queens last season. Devastating!

We were very careful to not expose her to the sun.
:eusa_dance:
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: neillsayers on May 06, 2017, 07:42:08 pm
Jen,

I believe the thoracic spiracles are located very close to the base of the wings. If the dot is centered on the top of the thorax, shouldn't cause a problem.
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Jen on May 06, 2017, 09:39:02 pm
I think I would like to have Tecumseh in on this... This is a queen bee biology question...

Can someone knock on his door for us? :)
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: riverbee on May 06, 2017, 11:40:54 pm
jen, you can send tec a pm.........

i have a few questions.......
how do you mark queens? do you mark them by hand (not using any queen marking tool), and if so how did you 'grasp' the queens? did you grasp her abdomen?
what paint/pen are you using? did you over mark them, paint running?
did the queen release a clear liquid?
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Jen on May 06, 2017, 11:55:41 pm
River, these are good questions. I'll get a drone tomorrow and show you how I hold her. I can get a dot on her quickly, I marked probably 10 queens last year without this happening. First tho, I catch her in a queen clip. I'm not comfortable grabbing her wings or holding her by her legs. Feels too fragile to me. I'll take a pic tomorrow with a drone.
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Lburou on May 06, 2017, 11:57:42 pm
The spiracles are located on the sides of the Thorax & abdomen.  The first thoracic spiracle is, like Neil said, near the root of the wing.

(https://s17.postimg.cc/3noxy6czv/anatomy-of-honey-bee.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3noxy6czv/)
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Jen on May 07, 2017, 12:41:48 am
Lee, I couldn't get your image to enlarge, but here is another one. So I can see what Neil was saying. So! In both cases of the queen going limp is definitely was not because of the dot on the top of her thorax. I may have to evaluate how I hold her.

(https://s10.postimg.cc/6chfzm8dx/p30.gif) (https://postimg.cc/image/6chfzm8dx/)

Seems this image won't enlarge either, however you can see the breathing holes down the sides of her thorax and abdomen.
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Jen on May 07, 2017, 01:27:02 am
I pm'd Tecumseh, hoping he will drop by and help us out  :)
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: riverbee on May 07, 2017, 01:30:57 am
the images cannot be enlarged because post image is down..........

thanks jen for your reply.

tec will jen..........
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Jen on May 07, 2017, 01:35:04 am
Okee Doke Riv, and to answer one of your questions, the first queen that went limp did discharge a clear fluid from her abdomen. Now, I'm afraid of what your answer may be  :sad:
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Green bee on May 07, 2017, 02:19:13 am
Jen I did a little research on this issue. It seems that this happens often when marking queens, most of the time the Beekeepers say they hold her by the abdomen when this happens. Most of the Beekeepers say it's from squeezing a little to hard and they also report the clear liquid as you did. All of them say the queen goes on and does just fine, at least I didn't read about any queens dying. I just googled it and found info on other forums...hope this helps. ;D
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Jen on May 07, 2017, 12:10:47 pm
Thanks Gbee, you da Man!  ;D  The thing is, we were very careful about her abdomen... But I was teaching as well, and my friend was trying so hard to learn, it was a bit of rascally event. That's why I thought that queen may have a fainting propensity.

:nice: This is a very interesting thread, to say the least! As I'm moving more into the scientific world of bees, I find the members of this forum to be so giving with their time when we are scratching our heads with questions.
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Green bee on May 07, 2017, 02:46:17 pm
It's funny Jen when I first read the thread I thought you might be a little whacky :laugh: :laugh: but like Perry said sure enough your not the first beek this has happened to. I like you would love to know the real reason it happens , but it does happen. The most I found on it was other opinions and experiences. But there has to be a logical explanation. Who knows maybe some honey bees has some possum genetics. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

  It is a nice thread one thing for sure I want be forgetting this little issue with bees :no:
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Jen on May 07, 2017, 03:03:56 pm
Hey Gbee, I have the perfect solution for you  ;D  Don't ever handle your queens lol such a delicate operation for sure.

I practiced a lot last year and found that I really enjoy stepping out in the early evenings in the warm balmy air, checking on a nuc and very quietly and patiently giving queen a pretty pink bonnet to wear. So sacred to hold a queen in your hands.


Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Green bee on May 07, 2017, 03:13:29 pm
I have a queen now I'd like to mark but not sure if I want to yet. I think if I do I'll try the queen marking cage. For now I think I am gonna let her be with my limited experience. I like your idea of practicing on drones.
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Jen on May 07, 2017, 03:56:40 pm
Fat Bee Man's vid is how I got my courage last year to start marking. However, I still do it a little differently.

I use Posca paint pens. They are odorless and dry in about 5 minutes. This package here with the medium tips.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000IGY28M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have looked at several contraptions to hold the queen for marking, but read somewhere they are time consuming and some actually press down on the queen... or something or other... I would like to know more about these devices tho.

Practicing on drones is fun. With my friend the other day, she picked bright pink to mark all the drones, then all the queens got a bright yellow. By the time we got to the third hive, we spotted bright pink drones all over the place. It was funny
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: riverbee on May 07, 2017, 10:16:15 pm
"Okee Doke Riv, and to answer one of your questions, the first queen that went limp did discharge a clear fluid from her abdomen. Now, I'm afraid of what your answer may be  :sad:"

lol, no worries jen, it happens..........curious, was it the second and third queen you marked? (that discharged a clear fluid), or just the 2nd queen, or just the 3rd queen, or both?
Title: Re: Queen Went Limp, Seemed Dead, After Marking Her Thorax
Post by: Jen on May 07, 2017, 10:25:34 pm
Only the second