Worldwide Beekeeping

Beekeeping => Raising Queens => Topic started by: Jen on August 24, 2017, 02:39:39 pm

Title: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on August 24, 2017, 02:39:39 pm
This is what happens when Jen joins a bee club, she turns into a Honeybee Assisted Living Facility  :D

I have a beek friend (I always start out this way) who has a top bar hive and the bees absconded a few weeks ago. Figuring the hive was empty of bees, she took off the lid to move the top bar hive to store behind the barn. Low and behold there was the queen and a handful of bees. This was last week and there were a few eggs, but nothing else.

She asked me if I wanted the queen. I said let me ask my forum a couple of questions first.

#1 - I remember once Iddee saying that if the queen isn't active and being cared for that she will loose her pheromones. Could this be a case for this queen offered to me?

#2 - Can a queen recall her pheromones if put in a right environment again? Like, a nuc with brood, food, laying room, more nurse bees?

#3 - I would like to make up a small nuc with 1 frame of brood and bees, plenty of food, and a frame to lay in as a trial effort. If this queen has been wandering around alone for awhile.. would it be possible to put her into a queen cage and introduce her to this trial nuc? Would she have to have pheromones to be excepted?

Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Les on August 24, 2017, 03:50:18 pm
Jen, you come up with the most interesting situations.  I will be watching the responses.
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: neillsayers on August 24, 2017, 04:09:57 pm
Hmmmmmm? Tuned in!
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Perry on August 24, 2017, 04:22:24 pm
I would, why not?
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Riverrat on August 24, 2017, 05:11:42 pm
nothing to lose at this point.  Go for it thats how we learn
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Mikey N.C. on August 24, 2017, 05:26:52 pm
Jen,
If you're thinking TBar will not make it. I would try a nuc situation . you have nothing to lose. If they're standard lang. top bars ( frames) that fit in your nuc boxes . i would get the best of all frames ( even if they're wedge frames) it might work in nuc box. I personal wouldn't pass that opportunity up, it can bee an experiment.  Just feed,feed.
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Lburou on August 24, 2017, 05:58:23 pm
Jen, you describe the classic symptoms of Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) in your friend's failed hive.  The causes of CCD are not well understood.  Here is a quip from the USDA ARS Lab (https://www.ars.usda.gov/northeast-area/beltsville-md/beltsville-agricultural-research-center/bee-research-laboratory/docs/ccd-overview/) paper on CCD:

Quote from: ARS
FOCUS AREAS AS POSSIBLE CAUSES OF CCD:
Theories about the cause or causes of CCD include infection by bacteria, fungi, viruses, spiroplasmas or new pathogens such as a new Nosema (related to the microporidian giardia), the invasive varroa mite and pesticide poisoning (particularly by neonicotinoids such as imidacloprid). Stresses include poor nutrition (due to apiary overcrowding, pollination of crops with low nutritional value, or pollen or nectar dearth) and migratory stress brought about by the increased need to move bees long distances for pollination.   Stress could compromise the immune system of bees making colonies more susceptible to disease.  While CCD could be caused by a single factor it is also possible that multiple factors are working together to cause colony loss.

If you buy into the possibility that this hive failure was caused by insecticide exposure, or,  bacterial, fungal or virus infection, you may hesitate to risk resources on a questionable queen.  But, I think you should try it and report back to us.  :)
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: apisbees on August 24, 2017, 06:07:51 pm
The queen is from a topbar that has absconded. Only a queen and a few hundred bees left.
Take the queen and leave the bees Get her introduced to a frame of brood and shake in a extra frame of bees. It she is excepted add more frames in a week or so of brood and bees If not return the bees to a hive that could use them and nothing lost.
With just taking the queen all the other things Lburou should not enter into the equation. Clean bees on Clean comb. Not much is transferred thru the queen to the eggs other than genetics. then the nuc has 2 possible outcomes it ether flourishes or she dies.
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Barbarian on August 24, 2017, 06:42:46 pm
Jen  ...... From your posts you have had a lot of things happen with your bees.

I would suggest you pass on the offer. You could introduce a whole batch of new problems. Put your effort into organizing your own bees.
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on August 27, 2017, 01:52:38 pm
Update ~ Picture won't load. I have in my possession the queen that my friend offered me, got her last evening. I have her now in a queen cage with fondant. She made it thru the night. But her attendants are dead. I'm sure this sweet queen is hungry.

My friend jumped the gun and put her in a jar yesterday with four attendants and a piece of rag that was sugar water soaked.

Question: If I pull a mini nuc right now, these bees are going to still be used to the other queens pheromones and will attempt to kill this new queen. But I'm afraid that this queen is going to die if left in this cage and not fed.

Am I right in this assumption? Can I try and leave the cage on top of the mini nucs frames for a minute or two and see of they except her readily?



Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: tedh on August 27, 2017, 03:23:42 pm
If you're making up a queenless nuc and if she (the queen) is in a queen cage can't you just introduce her as you would normally? Sticking the cage between 2 frames, check for her release in 3 days instead of dumping her in, hoping for acceptance?  Just a thought.  Ted
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Mikey N.C. on August 27, 2017, 04:04:08 pm
If I'm not mistaken you can feed drops of honey.
Imho, pull mini? nuc.  a least a few days , so they know Qless.
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: tedh on August 27, 2017, 04:13:23 pm
Good call Mikey.
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on August 27, 2017, 04:22:08 pm
Mikey, that was my original plan, to have the nuc established and queenless first, then go get the queen from my friend, bring her home and introduce the queen in her cage. But my friend gave me the queen too early. Her attendants are dead. Can she feed herself on my fondant and honey for a few days? That's where I'm unsure. It's my understanding that queens cannot feed themselves?

Photo Update, these photos were taken 1 hour after putting the queen cage on the top bars of my mini nuc. The bees' rumps are not down trying to sting the queen, I can sweep them off the face of the cage very easily, no aggression at all.

I'm very tempted to secure this queen cage between two frames and give it a shot. Not many bees in this nuc yet so it will take them awhile to unplug her anyway..  What do you think?

For some reason photo upload won't work today


Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: CBT on August 27, 2017, 04:47:28 pm
You can add the queened cage to the hive after 24 hrs and they will feed her. She can eat honey for a day.
When the queen hatches in the hatchery I give them a drop of honey until I can cage her and put fuzzy bees ( new young bees) from any hive with her as attendants. We try to let the queens arrive from their cell in a hive but sometimes I may be off a day or real busy.
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on August 27, 2017, 05:13:02 pm
Calvin, "She can eat honey for a day" ....So, you are saying that the queen can feed herself?
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Lburou on August 27, 2017, 05:21:27 pm
Calvin, "She can eat honey for a day" ....So, you are saying that the queen can feed herself?
Yes.
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on August 27, 2017, 07:11:46 pm
Thanks Lee, see I've always thought that that was one of the tasks of the nurse bees, was to keep feeding the queen so she could continuously lay. I like that the queen is not helpless  ;) 8)

Ted, That's what I thought for years myself. But the last two years I've been learning more about requeening, introducing queens, queens being balled, queens being killed in the cage. Also that last two years, I've learned how to make nucs for sale. Queening in precarious.

Calvin, the 24-48 hours thing sounds good to me.

This little gal has been alone for quite awhile from an absconded colony. I think she's hungry and lonely, so I'm giving her a little extra attention  :)



Seems very peaceful
(https://s10.postimg.cc/rrnc674ol/IMG_0051.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/rrnc674ol/)

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Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: apisbees on August 27, 2017, 08:30:37 pm
The screen will keep the bees from balling her. I make up nucs and put the caged queen in within the hour. 
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on August 27, 2017, 08:58:56 pm
Apis, They were balling her right after she emerged from the cage.
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: CBT on August 27, 2017, 09:03:50 pm
He said he puts the caged queen in the new nuke.
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: rober on August 27, 2017, 09:19:52 pm
like apis said, a caged queen installed in a queen-less nuc will be fine after an hour or 2. give them 1 frame of brood & a frame with some honey & pollen  & feed them.
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on August 27, 2017, 10:26:11 pm
Update ~ I think I messed things up big time  :sad: Last night I put some candy in a queen cage, then put the queen in. Everything was peachy. Then today I placed the queen cage on top of the top bars and the bees were peaceful with her. I should have just followed my instinct and wedged the cage between the frames and called it good for a couple days.

Instead I put a small drop of honey on the screen right by the candy to hold her over till tomorrow. Later, I come back and the floor of the cage was all sticky and the queen is a Huge sticky mess and moving very slow. DANG! The bees aren't going to except her like this...  :sad:

Is it possible that the bees might clean her up?

(https://s10.postimg.cc/4iww95y7p/IMG_0053.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4iww95y7p/)

(https://s10.postimg.cc/sb67kp08l/IMG_0054.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/sb67kp08l/)
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on August 27, 2017, 10:32:08 pm

(https://s10.postimg.cc/4iww95y7p/IMG_0053.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4iww95y7p/)

(https://s10.postimg.cc/sb67kp08l/IMG_0054.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/sb67kp08l/)
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: apisbees on August 28, 2017, 01:21:51 am
Leave her in the cage, but put the cage in the hive for 3 or 4 day or until they eat thru the candy. Not all the bees that come to the screen want to hurt her some of the nurse bees will feed her. What I said is I do not leave the nuc gueenless for 24 hr before putting the queen in a new hive.
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on August 28, 2017, 02:28:43 am
Hi Apis, glad and a little relieved to hear from you. I have had a heck of a time with queens this year. I had high hopes that my plan would help this lonely queen come to life again, she is this years queen. Was going so well and then she got all sticky and it concerned me deeply.

It got dark so I was going to keep her in my warm kitchen all night and then wedge the cage in the mini nuc in the morning. But I changed my mind and grabbed a flashlight and set her cage on top of the top bars for the night so she would with the bees and the nice scent of the colony. I'll wedge her cage between the frames first thing in the morning.

The mini nuc has a very nice frame of brood/pollen/honey. Another frame of stores, and a full frame of drawn wax for her to get going right away if she wants, and if she makes it.  I sure hope so.

Thanks for checking in so late, I appreciate that  ;) 8)
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: apisbees on August 28, 2017, 07:36:03 am
Been busy getting the volunteers for the fair. Have to set up tonight and tomorrow Then judge the honey competition starting at 1:00pm on Tuesday. Then will have to out at the fair on and off till Sunday night and Monday in the morning to tare it down.
Just spent the last few days helping my daughter move and cleaning out all the good junk in the shed and house. She is the director of the honey division at the fair as well so having to be out of the property by the 31st of August has been a challenge.
And working on the AGM, that is coming up on the end of October. Have to judge a full honey competition at it also, Plus mead. And on the 2nd of Sept. I was asked to speak at one of the local bee Clubs.
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Lburou on August 28, 2017, 10:06:35 am
Jen, getting the honey all over the queen isn't that uncommon.  Sometimes you get away with it just fine, usually after situating the cage so the honey doesn't drip on the occupants of the cage, but runs down the screen instead.  The bees will clean her as long as she lives until they get through the candy. 

You might make one of those 'push in' cages for your next try, sorry I didn't respond in time to help this time...You see by the pics that I followed instructions inside my shop where she couldn't fly very far if she got away.  The first bees to hatch adopt her immediately as their queen.  Only time I've had trouble with this method was when SHB eggs hatched under the screen without bees to patrol it.

Quote from: The BeeWeaver website
A push-in cage allows the queen to start laying  eggs immediately and will increase the chances  of  acceptance. This method requires handling the queen, which must be done with great care. 

Make sure the hive has no queen or queen cells present.   

To make a push in cage, cut a flat 6x6 inch screen wire. Cut slits 3/4” in from the top right and left, as well as the bottom right and left. Fold at the cuts to make a 3-dimensional box.

Select a comb with emerging brood. Brush the  bees off  the comb and place the push-in cage over  an area of  empty cells, a few emerging brood cells and open nectar.  Remove the queen from the candy cage and put her under the wire cage.

Do not allow any other adult bees under the cage. Push the cage into the comb, leaving enough room for the queen to move freely underneath. Be sure bees can't get under the cage.The frame with the queen and cage should be placed in the middle of  the brood nest (if  no brood is present, place in the middle of  the cluster). 

Remove the push-in cage after four days or after the bees are no longer clinging to the cage. If  the bees are clinging to the cage, instead of  calmly walking on it, then they have not accepted her yet, and more time is needed before the cage is removed. 

The colony should be disturbed as little as possible for the next 2 weeks, while the queen establishes her brood nest
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Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on August 28, 2017, 03:14:03 pm
Ooooooh! I forgot about these!

Questions:

So I'm thinking that I would have to take out a couple frames from a hive or nuc... to insert this and be able to see if the bees aggressive with her or caring for her?
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on August 28, 2017, 04:35:41 pm
Lookie! Ms.Sticky made it thru the night. She's even cleaned up and the bees are busy feeding her, all is peaceful...

Lee, I just learned this from you, that bees will bathe her until she's released... Remarkable!

Aww Shucks.. That makes me so happy  :bee:

(https://s26.postimg.cc/bbiojkkwl/IMG_0056.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/bbiojkkwl/)

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Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on August 28, 2017, 11:37:08 pm
Update ~ All this fuss over this little bug... but I must

This morning I found Ms.Sticky all cleaned up and the bees feeding her thru the screened cage. Happy Day!

This evening I find that 2/3 of the bees that came on the brood frame have returned to their original hive. I find it weird that they left the brood.

I take a peek at the queen in the cage and she is stuck upside down on the candy by her thorax. I very carefully lifted the screen and set her free unharmed.

(https://s26.postimg.cc/z7vx5l51x/IMG_0063.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/z7vx5l51x/)

(https://s26.postimg.cc/647p9cgyd/IMG_0065.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/647p9cgyd/)
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: neillsayers on August 29, 2017, 01:55:52 am
Rooting for this little bug! :)
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on August 29, 2017, 12:51:21 pm
Awwe Neil, you have the heart of a lion  ;)

The deed is done! I lifted the lid this morning and many bees were gathered on the queen cage but no aggression present, I gently moved the bees aside and queen was again cleaned of the candy stuck to her thorax. This just blows me away!.. how these nurse bees were able to bathe her thru the screened cage, just like Lee said.

I decided to release her because the bees were not eating the candy.

The brood in the mini nuc is hatching out, little antenna's are wiggling thru the cell caps. So Lee also taught that these baby bees will recognize this queen as their queen.

Now I have to get more bees in this nuc.

Best Wishes little lady, live long, prosper, and be lonely no more ~
 
(https://s26.postimg.cc/8arrwc9g5/IMG_0066.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/8arrwc9g5/)

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Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on September 01, 2017, 08:43:15 pm
Update on lonely queen

I released her 2 full days ago. Been peeking in the nuc to see if she is still alive. Yep! still alive, but she won't move from the floor of the nuc up into the frames. The nurse bees are still feeding her.
(https://s26.postimg.cc/iz846dys5/IMG_0077.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/iz846dys5/)

So today I got her to walk up onto my finger and I placed her right on the brood frame that is hatching out. I hope she stays on the frame. If she doesn't.... well I just don't know...
(https://s26.postimg.cc/m9wh69oph/IMG_0082.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/m9wh69oph/)
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: apisbees on September 02, 2017, 08:18:28 am
Do you have enough bees in the nuc to look after the queen.
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on September 02, 2017, 12:54:39 pm
Hi Apis, glad you checked in. Using my own wits with this project.

Not yet! I was waiting a couple days to see if they would kill her or take care of her. They are taking care of her. There is always 6-12 nurse bees with her. And she's back on the floor today.

If I shake more bees in with this nuc, will I have to take the nuc more than 2 miles away for a couple days?
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: apisbees on September 03, 2017, 12:08:38 pm
If there are so few bees that you are shaking more bees in than what is in the nuc you may have to protect her with a push in cage to protect her until the added bees except her. or shake only a few bees at a time.
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on September 03, 2017, 01:28:08 pm
Okay, that sounds like a good plan.

She is still on the floor today. I like the push in cage idea.

If I add more bees gradually, won't they simply fly out and go back to their original hives? How do I anchor them?

Can I block the entrance with some screen for say 24-48 hours?
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: apisbees on September 04, 2017, 07:24:29 pm
Shake young bees off frames of open brood nurse bees are pre orientation flight.
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on September 04, 2017, 09:29:43 pm
Fascinating! Why didn't I think of that ...

Update ~ So Apis, the queen has been MIA since yesterday morning. I waited until this evening to keep checking for her. Yesterday the bees, without the queen, were very busy and excitable, not aggressive or even insistant, even went in the nuc with no veil. Today, they are their normal busy selves but still no queen.

This queen was not very plump, but I've had slender queens do just fine. Is it possible, that this queen was not fully mated when she came to my house 11 days ago? Could she be on a second mating flight?
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: apisbees on September 04, 2017, 10:14:57 pm
no 2nd mating flight. if she was on the bottom board I think she was a poorly mated of developed queen. there is a reason she didn't excel like the other one.
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on September 04, 2017, 10:52:30 pm
Well.... I guess they offed her then, or, maybe she just died. That would be okay that she died surrounded by bees that were taking care of her... and not all alone in a top bar hive out in a field on the other side of town.

My guess would be she's unhealthy from mites and trach mites. She came from a top bar hive where the colony absconded, more than likely mite ridden, because beekeeper will not treat.

What did I learn?

1. To find another way to feed a queen when introducing her to a new hive. I have done that with the suggestion of Lee and the directions he provided for me on how to make a push in cage. Then Apis encouraged me to put her in a push in cage before I shook in bees from another hive. I made that push in cage but didn't get to use it.

2. I was so pleasantly surprised, actually astounded, that the bees had cleaned up a very sticky queen right thru the screen. I had lost hope of her survival when she couldn't unstick her feet up off of the floor of the wooden cage.

3. I saw the nurturing of the nurse bees and their constant feeding, bathing, and caring for a queen that was not healthy and couldn't move up to the frames.

All in all this was a good project  ;) 8)
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Les on September 06, 2017, 04:55:33 pm
Jen, you are such a trooper when it comes to solving your problems and finding a positive light.  I so appreciate you sharing your successes and not so successful experiences.  We all learn from them.  Thanks
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: Jen on September 06, 2017, 05:24:44 pm
Awe Shux, Thanks Les  ;)
Title: Re: Have Been Offered A Lone Queen
Post by: riverbee on September 08, 2017, 11:13:41 am
what les said jen!