Worldwide Beekeeping

Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: Nugget Shooter on April 12, 2017, 12:51:39 pm

Title: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 12, 2017, 12:51:39 pm
Good morning All, got my first real mobbing from one of our feral hives today during inspection, I mean bees all over me and stung through the gloves many times, but not through the suit and got my very first case of rash from stings on my belly and chest now almost gone. On a good note my arthritis is not bothering me now  :laugh: I have had even my Italians go angry and attack once in a while, but this hive was always more active during inspection, but not really aggressive. Now though it is 2 deeps booming with brood and they are filling a honey super as well as lots of stores both pollen and honey.

It was about 8:30am which is earlier than I usually go into the hives and after a good smoking and inspecting the top medium I started into top deep and after the 6th frame they exploded into action with me as the target  :o It has me wondering if perhaps the AHB genes I was bragging of not seeing in our feral captures are present in these bees as they are from South of us where I am always hesitant to go on calls . Like I said I have been stung and chased before once the bees tire of me molesting their home, but never like this and they chased me further than I have seen trying to sting all the way. I went into the yard and a bunch followed me and even stung the dogs a few times. Then leaving for work I was chased to the truck  :laugh:

So this leads me to a question and I am aware I may have just caught them in a bad moment as I have read many times here, what is the direction one goes if in fact a large colony goes mean and getting to the queen is almost impossible due to the bees being overly aggressive? I feel as though she needs to be replaced perhaps? I do plan to wait and see after they settle down how the next inspection goes, but right now anyone getting close is chased away. This is a first for me and looking for input about your experiences with hives that are "hot" and what steps can be taken? Just trying to gather info in case they are AHB influenced and I have to let this hive go or fix the problem in the coming future....
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Les on April 12, 2017, 02:08:44 pm
Certainly not an expert but everything I have read or viewed on video indicates that queen has to go.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: yes2matt on April 12, 2017, 03:03:28 pm
This is from memory, but I can't remember where I read it.
AHB
> are physically smaller
> hold their wings more erect, not flat on the back
> scurry more under smoke.

I think may bee it was in the Sammataro book, there is a whole list of identifiers.  https://www.amazon.com/Beekeepers-Handbook-Diana-Sammataro/dp/0801476941


Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: riverbee on April 12, 2017, 06:27:59 pm
nugget this sounds to me like ahb genetics. i keep russians, they can be aggressive, but not the aggression you are describing. i am concerned about the rash developing away from where you were stung.

if you can requeen.  my guess is, you will be unable to. no amount of smoke will help you find the queen without the aggression.

we have a member here from florida who dealt with ahb genetics in his hives 'cracker'. i will send him a pm with a link to your thread/ and also find his old threads on this and post the link nugget.

i can't remember all the specifics now. i don't remember if he successfully requeened any, or had to destroy. i also think his bees were tested?  perhaps perry or g3 will remember, but he went through what you are describing and more.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Perry on April 12, 2017, 06:44:26 pm
Wait till mid-day when half the bees are gone and find the queen. Replace her.
Cracker had a hive go ballistic and they stung and killed a bunch of his chickens.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: riverbee on April 12, 2017, 06:57:26 pm
nugget,
i contacted cracker, hope he chimes in.  here is the thread he started here on this forum on his second go round with AHB:

AHB AGAIN UGGGGGGH!!!!!!! (http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php/topic,1315.msg17642.html#msg17642)

cracker's first go round with ahb was on another forum, i will go over, find it, and post for ya!
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: riverbee on April 12, 2017, 07:17:14 pm
nugget,
i found cracker's thread on the old forum for you, there are two:

Assassins from the apairy(a sad story)  (http://www.beekeepingforums.com/threads/assassins-from-the-apairy-a-sad-story.8971/)

It's official...they were ahb (http://www.beekeepingforums.com/threads/its-official-they-were-ahb.9326/)

hope this helps!
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 12, 2017, 07:54:41 pm
Interesting reading Riverbee and what I was looking for.... Seems sulfur powder is also available many places and even Amazon. Now learning what I can and may send off some samples.... Always looking to be safe especially since I live near an elementary school. Now though all is again calm, but wow I will not forget that for a while and darn glad I always suit up as that could have went bad for this old fool  :-X
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 12, 2017, 08:09:02 pm
riverbee, is the brood spared doing this or does it die off as well?
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Mikey N.C. on April 12, 2017, 08:27:39 pm
Bees get hot if there's something wrong to.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: riverbee on April 12, 2017, 08:29:39 pm
nugget, brood dies off as well.  i hope cracker chimes in. wealth of info on this from his own experience. 

i hope this is not the case for you, but i suspect otherwise.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 12, 2017, 08:48:37 pm
I am trying to find if there is anyplace that checks this with a sample sent near to me and I would hate to jump to conclusions when I simply caught them at a bad time...
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Mikey N.C. on April 12, 2017, 09:01:15 pm
Have seen some stingers at 30 yards.   Twgos , denim blue jeans I've read calms hot bees.
I've not tried it.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Mikey N.C. on April 12, 2017, 09:05:25 pm
Should have explained.  Old blue jeans in smoker.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Cracker on April 12, 2017, 09:11:57 pm
What I've heard,is Arizona is a real hot spot for AHB.The 2 instances I had(other when I actually had AHB) was what the state inp. said when I had a problem with aggressive bees,is that in warm winters (like we have here in Fl.)bees make it through the winter and are old(like me)grumpy "Field Bees".She said they when it warms up they die off and soon the colony calms down,which mine did.
 The other time a fried of mine Rick experienced the same thing,only with his case his nighbor was mowing behind a 6' wood panel fence,and put her in the hospital.They threatened to sue if the bees weren't removed,even after the colony was DNA(the only way to tell besides the wing measure test)test negative.I ened up taking the 2 colonies,and still have both and that was 3 years ago.
 The best advice I can give is to get your state inspector involved,and let them determine if the bees are AHB.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 12, 2017, 09:50:58 pm
The state of Arizona a has no inspection program, I will have to look into if one can be requested.





Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Wandering Man on April 12, 2017, 10:05:56 pm
Have seen some stingers at 30 yards.   Twgos , denim blue jeans I've read calms hot bees.
I've not tried it.

Is that because the bees are too busy laughing at your skinny pale legs while your britches are burning in the smoker to sting?
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 13, 2017, 10:26:33 am
WOW, didn't even get close to the hive this morning and got popped 2 times just now from the "hot" hive. Thinking they have to go sadly. More questions on using sulfur... Is the drawn comb still usable after bees are smoked? Is honey useable for other hives or safe to eat? Is the woodenware reusable? I am guessing the sulfur is only deadly if they breathe it in? I have no State inspector here to help ID AHB as AZ does not do this and at this point in my "bee schooling" I agree that this hive is AHB and needs to go now that they have gone mean. It is the only colony I cutout from the South of us and I am thinking I will no longer do these removals....
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 13, 2017, 11:28:56 am
They have gone totally insane  :o anyone getting within 50 feet is stung instantly, my daughter just got nailed and one of the neighbors. I am amazed at how in one day they have totally flipped out and are even going after the dogs.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: badly stung on April 13, 2017, 11:35:13 am
It's unreal how mean those AHBs can be. I found that finding the queen is almost impossible with the way the bees scurry around on the frames and launch wave after wave of attacks each time a frame is pulled out. If you spit the hive up into small colonies it helps alot to calm them down, but I've decided the extremely aggressive hives aren't worth the trouble to try and requeen.

You could suck up most of the bees off the frames with a shop vac that has soapy water inside. Once most are gone those that are left flying seem to calm down quite a bit, or maybe they have left their stingers in your beesuit and are defenseless.

 
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Wandering Man on April 13, 2017, 11:45:49 am
NS, looks like you need that Donkey Suit for your dogs.

BS, I like your suggestion: ShopVac & Soapy water.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: badly stung on April 13, 2017, 11:47:45 am
Wow, sounds bad, you have them in an area that they could hurt someone, or even worse. Maybe get your shop vac, go out and block the entrance, then set the hose nozzle right at the entrance and open it just enough for them to come out and get sucked up. Returning foragers would get sucked up too.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 13, 2017, 11:58:20 am
Yeah Jen sent a PM about the shop vac, but I am not sure I want to attempt that with this crazy hive as it is a 2 deep with honey supers and that is allot of bees, but if it comes to that it does. Also heard a rag with gasoline will work as well, but wouldn't that also make everything not reusable?

Guess I am learning a hard lesson here.....
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Jen on April 13, 2017, 12:54:55 pm
Hi Nug, pmd you, but now that we are talking about sending this hive down river, I'll continue here.

About the shop vac. After I sulfured my hive last year and went back the next day, and still a lot of living bees left... the vacumming was quick and easy, probably because the bees were dopey from the sulfur the day before.

Also, Iddee explained that the sulfur would not render the hive boxes useless like gasoline would.

Just an added note.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: riverbee on April 13, 2017, 02:08:10 pm
nugget,
instructions here:

When do you consider a hive too HOT? (http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php/topic,3128.msg42778.html#msg42778) 

includes sulfur methods, soapy water, dry ice.  also tecumseh used a method with sulfur not mentioned in this thread.  i have copied and pasted if from somewhere else:

"you can also kill bees by making a hand rolled cigarette in which you sprinkle a bit of sulfur. years ago when I employed this method I chopped off a bit of copper pipe to act as a holder (heat shield) which I then placed in the front entry and sealed the remaining entry + top entry with green grass. usually right at dark I would light the 'cigarette' and walk away. this produces hydrogen sulfide gas which is heavy (typically sinks to the lowest point) and extremely lethal but it will not damage or pollute the equipment."

"by adding the sulfur and burning this you are creating hydrogen sulfide which in closed spaces is very lethal. as iddee suggest it will not contaminate the honey. the gas does not hang around very long (it is heavier than air) and as far as I know doesn't have the opportunity to permeate the honey."

also,
instructions from iddee:
"Light your smoker, drop a couple tablespoons of sulfur powder in it.Smoke them well. There won't be any live ones left and the honey will be fine."
 
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 13, 2017, 03:35:35 pm
Will update after doing the deed
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Lburou on April 13, 2017, 03:38:30 pm
In an emergency situation with neighbors in danger, you can put a garbage bag over the hive & seal it.  They will overheat in minutes...
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Wandering Man on April 13, 2017, 03:49:50 pm
So many ideas on killing a hive.

Maybe this thread should become a "sticky."
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Wandering Man on April 13, 2017, 04:21:20 pm
Some Arizona Resources:

https://cals.arizona.edu/yavapai/anr/hort/byg/archive/beesandbeekeeping2012.html

https://extension.arizona.edu/bee-resources

And the extension office for Maricopa County:
https://extension.arizona.edu/people-search?combine=&office%5B%5D=296&interests=

Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Jen on April 13, 2017, 04:35:30 pm
Wman, that's an interesting idea! Ya know, we all face this at some point in time. It's good to know.. First Of All.. that there comes a time when a hive has just Gone Mad! And it okay to destroy it.

Then we are faced with how to go about that quickly and safely. I've had to do this twice, it's a daunting task, but it doesn't have to be.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: neillsayers on April 13, 2017, 05:30:26 pm
I have heard that soapy water in a hand sprayer will knock em down. Did this to a hornet nest and got almost all of them. I just used dawn.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: riverbee on April 13, 2017, 05:36:12 pm
nugget..........

good luck, suit up good.  you are doing the right thing and it's the responsible thing to do.
don't let 'em get ya.................. ;D
     (https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1056.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft373%2Friverbee1%2Fbee%2520smileys%2Fbeechased_zpsb2acf012.gif&hash=712d0ddc813f166ca0110f6a0baa6b30722b2693)

.......... :D
JUST KIDDING!!! just poking fun......as beekeepers we have to find some humor in some of the sad/unpleasant things we may be tasked with.

i would be curious about the wing measurement, shorter than 9.2 millimeters (got this from apis) most likely ahb, longer than 9.2 millimeters, most likely aggressive european bees.

ps neil, yes it does, (in an earlier post). use a pump sprayer or one that attaches to garden hose.

EDIT AND ADD:
wm good idea as a sticky
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Mikey N.C. on April 13, 2017, 05:54:27 pm
River, could aggressive eros. be feral ?
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 13, 2017, 06:43:20 pm
I pondered soap, but this is a 2 deep with 2 medium madhouse of crazy bees and I think the sulfur will be safer and less worry about strays nailing the animals and people here. I plan to do this at sundown after taping all cracks etc. and will cover the lower entrance and start smoking from the top driving them down and hopefully will be able to remove a super or two before covering again.

Going to wait a bit and smoke them again.... Should be a done deal by morning and if not will use soap.

Have everything ready to go....

I shall also listen to advise from my more learned friends about taking swarms or cutouts from below 4000 feet elevation here in AZ  :yes: Darn know it all newbies  :-[
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Wandering Man on April 13, 2017, 06:48:38 pm
So sorry for you. AHB that rampant takes some of the fun out of being a beekeeper.

Apparently you don't have to go much further South than where I live to find the feral hives being predominantly AHB.

Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 13, 2017, 09:02:23 pm
Thanks WM, but just part of being responsible as a beekeeper I figure and though unpleasant it is nothing like if I knew of the issue and someone else were to get stung many times over. ^:00 pm here now, one hour from sunset....
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: riverbee on April 13, 2017, 10:40:26 pm
"River, could aggressive eros. be feral ?"

mikey yes.......
abc xyz defines feral bees as "Wild, non-managed nest of honey bees, as in a tree."
euro bees are not native to the usa and semi domesticated.........blah, blah, blah  but they swarm (reproductive cycle) and because they swarm they can survive in all sorts of places under the right conditions. we don't get all the swarming bees. they go to cavities; trees and stumps, crevices, chimneys, old structures, attics, siding, etc........their survival depends on many variables, like pests and diseases, and weather, where they choose as a home and also i think climate. if they survive, they swarm again. btw, it is the drones genes that give the ornery state of aggressive/mean bees. 

you all in the south or warmer climates capture many more swarms/feral bees than we do in the north; more cutouts, more beetrees more trapouts than i think we do in my area....etc......it just gets too cold up here for them to survive unless they are in a protected structure.

several years ago, i had a neighbor about a mile up the road call me and said he had bees in an old walnut tree. it was late fall, i took a look. he told me he watched it all summer, and mentioned that they had been there for two seasons and two winters. it was too late to get these bees out of that tree, but come spring, they died off. our winters are too cold, and hard to say if mites/disease got them.  i went back many times to check that tree.

structures.....another time i helped many other volunteer beeks clean up bees from an overturned semi on a busy freeway.  what a sad state of affairs this was. smashed  full hives of bees scattered all over the freeway, wooden wear and bees all over creation. frantic bees and stinging everything in sight.  if you want a learning experience, just volunteer for this job.  fire department called in to spray the bees and the equipment just to get traffic moving. for about 4 or 5 years, many of us received phone calls from about a 3 to 4  mile radius of this event for honey bees in trees,  attics, sheds, horse barns, siding, and chimneys. i worked with one homeowner, they had a 4 story home. the bees were up in the chimney somewhere. bees, never got in the house or the attic, no problems inside the house, but i sure did get some nice swarms from setting out swarm boxes for about 4 years. and yes i did encourage them and refer them to someone who was more experienced than i to get to where the bees were calling home.  they never did. oh well, so whatever comb is in there is probably still there, just waiting for another semi tip over............. :D

Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Jen on April 13, 2017, 11:08:55 pm
Rooting for you Nug! Take pics if you can. Such learning stuff
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 14, 2017, 11:25:44 am
OK I used the smoker stoked hot with hardwood chips and sulfur for this operation last evening around sundown. I added a 3 inch section of 1/2 inch pipe with a 90 degree attached to help direct the smoke into the hole on the cover for my bee vacuum that I put on top of the hive and then we sealed all supers with tape and used a rag in the entrance. We also covered the two hives (one each side) to protect them. One should be careful adding the sulfur powder as it is very flammable and wrapping 2.5 tablespoons in a napkin then adding to smoker worked well for me and I applied the first dose.

I have never heard such a roar from bees and they continued through the first 2 applications, then I removed the top super and inner cover and re-installed the lid. The next 2 applications produced absolute quiet after second, I timed applications at 10 minute intervals and had so much smoke in the box you could not see into it through the Plexiglas observation window on my vacuum lid with each dose. Used a total of 5 doses and when smoke finally cleared there was nothing moving when shining a light in the top to look through window. Left it sealed and waited until morning.

At 6:00 am I opened it up and with soap bottle in hand and though there were some still moving nothing was able to fly and I wetted the ones moving with soapy water which quickly killed them. Most of the sulfur smell was also gone and I was left with the task of cleaning up thousands of dead bees. A very humbling task and though we can now walk in the bee yard again I do not feel the hero.... Just responsible in having dispatched these bees before they really hurt someone here. If I would have been further from other folks and animals I may have tried other methods such as re-queening, splits, etc. but I felt that was not an option in this case.

There was lots of honey and brood in a pattern showing the Queen was a real gem, but now I guess I will use all these frames for other hives. Will the bees clean these out (dead brood) if given the frames in other hives?

Below are pictures of the smoker and lid I used and I must say this method is fast clean and very easy to do even for a second year beek. Hard part is cleaning out the dead  :sad:
(https://s1.postimg.cc/3t2x138bv/hive3kill.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3t2x138bv/)

(https://s1.postimg.cc/oehoszpwr/hive3kill2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/oehoszpwr/)
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Jen on April 14, 2017, 11:41:56 am
Ahh Man Nug! I so hear ya ~Hugs~

But what an efficient operation your had set up there! I'm very impressed. And I'm glad that it went smoothly without complication.

This is the beginning of a pleasant summer for you and those around you, instead of worrying that someone is going to get hurt.

I have found that beekeepers are kind people, and so must our bees be  ;) 8)

Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 14, 2017, 12:08:15 pm
Yes indeed Jen and much credit goes to folks here like you for helping me decide which route to take and many thanks to riverbee for taking the time to locate information that was a big part of me being prepared and getting it done cleanly and efficiently. All is again peaceful in the bee yard.....
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Jen on April 14, 2017, 02:34:40 pm
Let there be Beace In The Queendom

(https://s23.postimg.cc/qqh4h0oon/th_KQ8_BVR0_E.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/qqh4h0oon/)
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 14, 2017, 03:41:31 pm
Riverbee I forgot to add that wings were between 7mm and just over 8mm long on several we measured for reference.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: badly stung on April 14, 2017, 04:54:09 pm
Were did you get the sulfur?
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: neillsayers on April 14, 2017, 05:11:16 pm
Sorry for your loss but glad it worked out.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 14, 2017, 06:35:17 pm
Were did you get the sulfur?

Ace Hardware.... 90% pure for organic gardening.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Chip Euliss on April 14, 2017, 09:40:43 pm
Late to the party as always but it sounds like you found an effective solution.  There is an alternate way, if you're interested, in case it happens again.  I've had AHB hives returned to me from down south and they are basically impossible to re-queen with gentle stock in my view.  After beating my head against the wall, I came up with a system that worked well for me.  Suit up and tear the "bad" break the hive down into 2 boxes if you can't or don't want to take the time and lumps to find the queen.  Leave 1 box where it was and move the "split" box a short distance away, maybe 40 yards or so.  The old grumpy bees will go back to the original location after a day or so.  Check the box you moved to see if there are eggs after 4 days.  If you find eggs in the box you moved, put it back at the original location and move the original bottom box where you moved the "split".  What you want is to have the queen and the old grumpy bees in one box at the original location and only nurse bees and brood in the other.  To do that, the queen has to be in the original location.  Re-queen the box that has AHB nurse bees and brood with a good gentle queen--nurse bees are more accepting of a new queen.  Once the new queen is laying well, reverse the boxes again.  That will result in the AHB workers from the original location going into the hive you re-queened--wait a day or so for them to relocate.  The original box (now at the location of your "split" box) will now contain the old queen, nurse bees, and some AHB workers that hatched since you started the operation.  It will be easier to find the queen and kill her than with the larger population of angry bees you had at their original location.  You can either re-queen the hive that contained the old queen (may not work because that hive will now have adult AHB bees) or you could join them to your newly re-queened hive over a piece of newspaper; you'd loose some AHB workers (that would be my preference) but not a great loss.  In your situation, I would use a bred queen versus a cell because there are likely many AHB drones there to breed another problem for you.  The hives will still be grumpy as long as there are AHB genetics but the behavior of the hive(s) will improve as European bees start to dominate the population within the hive(s).  They are a pain and I only had a couple of years that I had to deal with them and I'm pleased it hasn't repeated itself.  From my experience, trying to re-queen a AHB hive is a waste of money.  I kept bred queens caged for many days before release and they still killed everyone I tried to add.  Nurse bees, even of AHB stock are much easier to deal with.

I hear your pain on aggressive bees.  I dealt with mine when I had all my bees in one huge yard (400+ colonies) that I use to manipulate them after they return from out west and just before they go to outyards here.  The pheromones from AHB quickly spreads to other hives and the whole holding yard is suddenly a very unhappy place.  I just finished putting in MAQS in about 500 hives, wearing only a light bee jacket and crocs--my everyday beekeeping outfit.  I was stung maybe 5-6 times but from bees that got inside my crocs.  When we had the AHB problem, it was a full suit and boots--not fun!  My wife had to wear a bee suit when she was outside in the garden, over 100 yards away.

Good luck and be safe :)
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: riverbee on April 14, 2017, 11:50:02 pm
thanks for your thread and posts on this nugget and your post/description of how you used the sulfur. this educates all of us and will help other beeks in the future for those that find themselves with a problematic hive as yours and wondering what to do.
i am sure that this was not pleasant for you, but again a responsible decision on your part.

Riverbee I forgot to add that wings were between 7mm and just over 8mm long on several we measured for reference.

nugget, i do not know the average length of a european honey bees wing vs the length of an africanized honey bee wings length OR a hybrid between the two. apisbees at one time posted the length of an ahb wing length. (shorter than 9.2 millimeters most likely ahb, longer than 9.2 millimeters, most likely aggressive european bees). now i am curious about this.........
will send off an email or two to those that probably know.

again thanks for your thread!

EDIT AND ADD....OOPS!
your question.....
"Will the bees clean these out (dead brood) if given the frames in other hives?"

yes they will. you could try to gently tap/shake the frames to remove the dead brood (unsealed) as much as you can, but the bees will clean out and polish the cells.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: neillsayers on April 15, 2017, 12:26:33 am
I looked it up and evidentially a cheap and dirty AHB test is forewing length. Greater than 9.070mm is most likely EHB. Less than 8.954mm are suspected AHB and it is recommended they be sent of for DNA analysis. Clearly yours fell in the suspect category.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 15, 2017, 09:24:08 am
Sure does appear that way on wing length Riverbee and Neil, again I think it was best not to take the risk of trying to split or re-queen since in a fairly well populated area here. On a good note I am sure it is just my imagination, but all the hives seem calmer now and it sure is nice not getting stung for just walking by  :yes:
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Jen on April 15, 2017, 11:54:48 am
Exactly Nug! Such a sigh of relief
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: badly stung on April 15, 2017, 01:43:34 pm
I'm wondering how toxic to a beek an accidental whiff of that sulfur smoke would be.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 15, 2017, 05:47:51 pm
I'm wondering how toxic to a beek an accidental whiff of that sulfur smoke would be.

Use a mask as you would treating with OAV.... Sulphur itself is NOT dangerous. Sulphur in gaseous state doesn't exist, because it reacts with oxygen in air (Unless you have a vacuum in your room ;) ) The compounds of Sulphur ARE dangerous, especially Sulphur Dioxide. In small quantity, it is going to give you a choking feeling and you will not be able to bear it. In excess, such as a closed room it can lead to permanent respiratory problems, death due to choking, or even death because of cardiovascular problem.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Bakersdozen on April 20, 2017, 08:38:52 am
I just read this thread.  I was wondering if your smoker will contain any residual sulfur after this?  Or did the sulfur all burn off?
Glad you fixed your problem.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: neillsayers on April 20, 2017, 01:42:00 pm
Have seen some stingers at 30 yards.  Twgos , denim blue jeans I've read calms hot bees.
I've not tried it.

Mikey, My curiosity is killing me, what does twgos mean? :)
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 20, 2017, 05:50:44 pm
I just read this thread.  I was wondering if your smoker will contain any residual sulfur after this?  Or did the sulfur all burn off?
Glad you fixed your problem.

There is much residue left BD and I will now only use this old smoker for those rare times I may have to do this again. I tried burning it out with a torch, but still more left. I have a second smoker for working the bees and will not reuse the other for general smoking now....
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: riverbee on April 20, 2017, 10:34:31 pm
nugget............

did not know this? about the sulfur residue, and burning it out with a propane torch did not work?  thx bakers for asking and thx nugget for the reply!
curious as to why the residue still remains in the smoker?  anyone?
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Jen on April 21, 2017, 12:08:31 am
Um well, when I sulfered one of my hives a couple years ago, Iddee guided me thru that. He said that there is no sulfer residue after 48 hours.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on April 21, 2017, 10:14:17 am
Riverbee, I could probably get it burned out with more work, but I am more comfortable not using this smoker anymore for regular use. There is a crusty black residue  mixed with the old wood tar like residue that when heated with the torch gives of a orange yellow smoke smelling strongly of SO2.

Jen, everything in the hive was SO2 free within a day and no smell or residue in hive as iddee said....
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: CBT on April 21, 2017, 11:04:39 am
Way late for this one. I have been told to destroy a hive use 1 cup dish soap in a 5 gallon bucket make lots of suds and pour in the hive. The suds are suppose to clog their breathing tubes.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: riverbee on April 22, 2017, 01:44:38 am
"Riverbee, I could probably get it burned out with more work, but I am more comfortable not using this smoker anymore for regular use. There is a crusty black residue  mixed with the old wood tar like residue that when heated with the torch gives of a orange yellow smoke smelling strongly of SO2.

Jen, everything in the hive was SO2 free within a day and no smell or residue in hive as iddee said...."


thank you nugget for your reply.......i appreciate it.

and cbt, yah you are late to the party!!!............dish soap discussed way back............ :D :D :D
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Bakersdozen on May 07, 2017, 11:21:35 am
I am rereading this thread.  I think I am going to have to go this route on a swarm I caught last spring.  The neighbor talked to my husband about the 3 stings he took trying to mow his yard.   :o  I will go talk to him today about my intentions of eliminating them.  In the mean time, I will suggest yard work early or late in the day.
Are you able to save the drawn comb after using sulfur?

I remember Nugget said that the smoker couldn't be used any more.  I was wondering about the comb, frames and woodenware.

Chip Euliss' plan of attack would work, but I need a quick remedy.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on May 07, 2017, 06:39:13 pm
Yes you can reuse the comb as the sulfur is not deadly to bees unless burned which gives of SO2 gas (Sulfur Dioxide) and this is the killing agent. Residue left on frames is minimal without much smell after a day airing out so any sulfur particles from the smoking are not toxic. I have used several of the frames of drawn comb in one of my small hives with no ill affects.

Seal the hive well and smoke liberally from the top using a piece of pipe with a 90 degree fitting or something similar through a cover made for the deed, just plywood with a fitted hole and plug for between treatments will work fine. Smoke till all is quiet inside, smoke again and leave sealed overnight.....

That is how we did it anyway right at dark....
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Bakersdozen on May 12, 2017, 03:21:34 am
I don't want to steal this thread, but I thought I would give an update on my issues with a mean, mean hive.
I called a member of my local bee club that does bee rescue.  He collects swarms, does cut outs, trap outs, etc.  He said he would like them and would come pick them up.  We agreed to work out a trade of the woodenware.
Afterwards, I caught my neighbor and talked to him.  He gave me a slightly different story than my husband.  Hmmmm!  It wasn't quite as dramatic as my husband led me to believe.  BUT the important thing is a good neighbor relationship.  I could tell he appreciated my concern for his well being and that I was willing to sacrifice a rogue colony.  I assured him that I wanted to be a good beekeeper and sometimes that means being a good neighbor too.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on May 12, 2017, 10:06:03 am
Much better outcome than having to put the hive down.... No one wanted mine  :no:
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on May 19, 2017, 07:37:44 pm
Update: We used 3 of the frames we removed brood from in a new package hive a few days back, no apparent issues and they were grateful for the head start with honey, pollen, and drawn comb from outside appearance anyway. Not going to mess with them for a spell unless something doesn't look right from outside or on inspection boards.

I am thinking all will be well, but will update with any important info....
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Bakersdozen on June 03, 2017, 06:32:21 am
I thought I would post the conclusion to my mean bees saga.  Yesterday a prominent member of our local bee club told me that he ended up with my mean colony.  It seems they were too mean for the guy that I had arranged with to take them away! The new owner divided and conquered.  He thought the reason they might be mean is that they were queenless.  I assured him that the loss of the queen was recent and they had been mean for a year.  I also told him I pulled 3 honey supers, 2 were capped, before they were picked up.  I am glad that will be productive members of society now.
Instead of the Traveling Wilbury's, they are the Traveling Wilbees!    ;)
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Wandering Man on June 03, 2017, 11:00:54 pm
Nugget Shooter, have you seen this video?

https://youtu.be/luszv798bYc
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on June 04, 2017, 11:27:11 am
Yes I have WM and they are indeed very aggressive from experience, but sadly these videos make people fear all honeybees and not all feral bees here are AHB. Leads to so many bees here killed out of fear that were not a danger and the news here has sometimes reported that if you see a swarm flying that they are all AHB which is also false. Makes it hard on beekeepers here as well as people fear our hives will send a swarm one day  to their yard attacking them.

Needs to be more attention given to education about these bees and what to watch for as opposed to sensationalism and getting a hot story for the TV.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Wandering Man on June 04, 2017, 04:22:21 pm
Yes, they are quite over the top.  But I enjoyed watching the storm of bees they unleashed in that first hive removal.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on June 04, 2017, 05:27:17 pm
Yes, they are quite over the top.  But I enjoyed watching the storm of bees they unleashed in that first hive removal.

It is very similar to what we went through, they are absolutely vicious when protecting the hive.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Nugget Shooter on June 05, 2017, 10:15:21 am
Just for the record here, if we had our yard in the boondocks away from the grade school and neighbors I likely would not have destroyed the hive. But being close to other people and animals I took what I thought was the best direction.
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: tedh on June 05, 2017, 08:15:53 pm
I believe you made the right and prudent call.  Ted
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: Wandering Man on June 05, 2017, 11:53:27 pm
Just for the record here, if we had our yard in the boondocks away from the grade school and neighbors I likely would not have destroyed the hive. But being close to other people and animals I took what I thought was the best direction.

I'm not sure what other choice you would have had, Nugget.  From what I hear, requeening is very difficult.  I guess you could have tried to split the hive and then you might have got away with new queens.  I wonder if you would have had to make two hives or three to bring them back down to calm?
Title: Re: Perhaps I Spoke Too Soon? Use of Sulfur to Destroy Aggressive Hive
Post by: troutdog on January 05, 2020, 08:15:00 am
Late to the party as always but it sounds like you found an effective solution.  There is an alternate way, if you're interested, in case it happens again.  I've had AHB hives returned to me from down south and they are basically impossible to re-queen with gentle stock in my view.  After beating my head against the wall, I came up with a system that worked well for me.  Suit up and tear the "bad" break the hive down into 2 boxes if you can't or don't want to take the time and lumps to find the queen.  Leave 1 box where it was and move the "split" box a short distance away, maybe 40 yards or so.  The old grumpy bees will go back to the original location after a day or so.  Check the box you moved to see if there are eggs after 4 days.  If you find eggs in the box you moved, put it back at the original location and move the original bottom box where you moved the "split".  What you want is to have the queen and the old grumpy bees in one box at the original location and only nurse bees and brood in the other.  To do that, the queen has to be in the original location.  Re-queen the box that has AHB nurse bees and brood with a good gentle queen--nurse bees are more accepting of a new queen.  Once the new queen is laying well, reverse the boxes again.  That will result in the AHB workers from the original location going into the hive you re-queened--wait a day or so for them to relocate.  The original box (now at the location of your "split" box) will now contain the old queen, nurse bees, and some AHB workers that hatched since you started the operation.  It will be easier to find the queen and kill her than with the larger population of angry bees you had at their original location.  You can either re-queen the hive that contained the old queen (may not work because that hive will now have adult AHB bees) or you could join them to your newly re-queened hive over a piece of newspaper; you'd loose some AHB workers (that would be my preference) but not a great loss.  In your situation, I would use a bred queen versus a cell because there are likely many AHB drones there to breed another problem for you.  The hives will still be grumpy as long as there are AHB genetics but the behavior of the hive(s) will improve as European bees start to dominate the population within the hive(s).  They are a pain and I only had a couple of years that I had to deal with them and I'm pleased it hasn't repeated itself.  From my experience, trying to re-queen a AHB hive is a waste of money.  I kept bred queens caged for many days before release and they still killed everyone I tried to add.  Nurse bees, even of AHB stock are much easier to deal with.

I hear your pain on aggressive bees.  I dealt with mine when I had all my bees in one huge yard (400+ colonies) that I use to manipulate them after they return from out west and just before they go to outyards here.  The pheromones from AHB quickly spreads to other hives and the whole holding yard is suddenly a very unhappy place.  I just finished putting in MAQS in about 500 hives, wearing only a light bee jacket and crocs--my everyday beekeeping outfit.  I was stung maybe 5-6 times but from bees that got inside my crocs.  When we had the AHB problem, it was a full suit and boots--not fun!  My wife had to wear a bee suit when she was outside in the garden, over 100 yards away.

Good luck and be safe :)
KILL ALL DRONE COMB AND AS MANY AS YOU FIND

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