Author Topic: Oxalic Acid Discussion  (Read 130518 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bakersdozen

  • Global Moderator
  • Gold Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 4520
  • Thanked: 483 times
  • Gender: Female
  • Location: Olathe, Kansas
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #100 on: November 24, 2015, 03:12:25 am »
Well, a vaporizer is on my Christmas list.  I treated this fall using the oxalic acid drip method.  I would say that it was not effective.  One colony has signs of deformed wing virus and my niece, with her good eye site, spotted mites on those bees.  I have fingers crossed that they will make it through to spring and I can do a spring treatment. 

Offline efmesch

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1690
  • Thanked: 201 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Israel
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #101 on: November 24, 2015, 06:02:11 am »
Yesterday I gave a second OA vapor treatment to my hives.  I just came in from checking the floors of three (out of 7) hives.  Two were clean, one had a lot of fallen mites.  I think I'll give nother treatment next wek and hopefully go into the winter (which here is pretty mild) with clean hives.  Worthy of mentioning is that in two of the hivess I observed pseudoscorpions walking around--so I guess they are not affected by the OA.  That makes for another reason to use the OA vapor treatment.

Offline lazy shooter

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1449
  • Thanked: 64 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Brownwood, Texas
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #102 on: November 24, 2015, 08:10:09 am »
I am going to start my OA treatments later in this week, if it is not raining.  We are supposed to have rain from Thursday through Friday.  I hope that is the case.  I read somewhere that some researcher had stated that he used OA three weeks in a row on some of his hive and only once of some of his hives.  The hives that had only one treatment survived as well as the hives that were treated three times.  If I get a good burn and see some good response to the vapor covering the entire hive body, I may treat only once.  I don't like to expose my bees to more chemicals than necessary.  And, remember my handle is "lazy."

Offline CBT

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1047
  • Thanked: 80 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Age gets better with wine
  • Location: Sandhills of North Carolina
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #103 on: November 24, 2015, 10:24:17 am »
The less covered brood the more effective it is

Offline Slowmodem

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1551
  • Thanked: 37 times
  • Gender: Male
    • http://gregsbees.blogspot.com/
  • Location: Ten Mile, TN
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #104 on: December 01, 2015, 01:57:11 pm »
I succumbed to the Cyber Monday specials and got an OA Vaporizer and OA kit from Brushy Mountain with free shipping.  Although TN is on the list of legal states, it wouldn't let me order the OA online.  I had to call in my order.  The lady was very friendly and helpful, but I told her they may be losing a lot of sales because of the computer glitch.  But I am very anxious to try my new equipment.
Greg Whitehead
Ten Mile, TN
Beekeeping at 26.4 kbs

Offline tedh

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1346
  • Thanked: 65 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Henry County, Iowa
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #105 on: December 01, 2015, 03:55:59 pm »
Slow, I think you will be glad you got one!   Ted
Share that which you have an abundance of.  In doing so both the giver and receiver are enriched.

Offline Slowmodem

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1551
  • Thanked: 37 times
  • Gender: Male
    • http://gregsbees.blogspot.com/
  • Location: Ten Mile, TN
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #106 on: December 03, 2015, 12:58:48 pm »
I succumbed to the Cyber Monday specials and got an OA Vaporizer and OA kit from Brushy Mountain with free shipping.  Although TN is on the list of legal states, it wouldn't let me order the OA online.  I had to call in my order.  The lady was very friendly and helpful, but I told her they may be losing a lot of sales because of the computer glitch.  But I am very anxious to try my new equipment.

The package came a little while ago.  I did not order special fast shipping.  I am wondering if anyone else has this kind?  I probably should have done more research on it, but I was surprised at the box and having two red leads.







Greg Whitehead
Ten Mile, TN
Beekeeping at 26.4 kbs

Offline Perry

  • Global Moderator
  • Gold Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 7382
  • Thanked: 390 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Brandt's Bees
  • Location: Annapolis Valley, Nova Scotia
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #107 on: December 03, 2015, 02:33:25 pm »
I'm guessing the country of origin is the Ukraine? They seem to sell a lot of beekeeping equipment. Don't worry about the 2 red leads, it doesn't matter. If it bugs you just wrap one of them with black electric tape. Mine came back after loaning it out missing one of the lead covers and I just used the tape.
"It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor."      
Forum Supporter

Offline kebee

  • WorldWide Beekeeper Emeritus
  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1095
  • Thanked: 55 times
  • Gender: Male
  • May GOD be with us
  • Location: eastcentral Al
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #108 on: December 03, 2015, 04:43:05 pm »
 I took mine that had stop working apart a couple days ago and cleaned it up, put back together and works lack a charm now. I don't think the set screw was making good contract in the pan part, what it check out to be. And now have to wait until it warms up enough to give them another treatment.

Ken

Offline Slowmodem

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1551
  • Thanked: 37 times
  • Gender: Male
    • http://gregsbees.blogspot.com/
  • Location: Ten Mile, TN
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #109 on: December 03, 2015, 07:31:40 pm »
I'm guessing the country of origin is the Ukraine? They seem to sell a lot of beekeeping equipment. Don't worry about the 2 red leads, it doesn't matter. If it bugs you just wrap one of them with black electric tape. Mine came back after loaning it out missing one of the lead covers and I just used the tape.
You're right, of course.  Old habits are hard to break.

Sent from my LG-V495 using Tapatalk

Greg Whitehead
Ten Mile, TN
Beekeeping at 26.4 kbs

Offline CBT

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1047
  • Thanked: 80 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Age gets better with wine
  • Location: Sandhills of North Carolina
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #110 on: December 13, 2015, 12:44:02 pm »
Be careful if you are using the battery in a machine. We use a utility golf cart and if I lay it on the metal it can short out. Lay it on a piece of cardboard and your good to go.

Offline Lburou

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2284
  • Thanked: 315 times
  • Location: DFW area, Texas, USA, growing zone 7a
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #111 on: December 13, 2015, 01:26:17 pm »
I checked five hives this week...3 with no brood and two with 2 inch circle of brood & some eggs (no larva).  Its prime OAV time!  I'll treat next week when that brood has hatched.  :-)
Lee_Burough

Offline iddee

  • Administrator
  • Gold Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 6126
  • Thanked: 407 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Sophia, N. C.
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #112 on: December 13, 2015, 01:30:07 pm »
Better get it done quick, Lee. The 22nd is solstice. That's her signal to start laying again. It's only nine days to go.
“Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”
― Shel Silverstein

Offline Lburou

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2284
  • Thanked: 315 times
  • Location: DFW area, Texas, USA, growing zone 7a
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #113 on: December 13, 2015, 02:50:48 pm »
Better get it done quick, Lee. The 22nd is solstice. That's her signal to start laying again. It's only nine days to go.
Yes, the new eggs validate your observation.  I have at least six more days before anything gets capped.
Lee_Burough

Offline Barbarian

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 503
  • Thanked: 28 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #114 on: December 13, 2015, 06:33:19 pm »
There are a lot of replies on this topic. I've only checked out the last two pages.

There is a bit of a ho ha on a UK forum. New regulations are going to come into force. In order to buy OA a buyer will have to obtain a licence. This appears to relate to toxic and potentially explosive materials. Another thing to worry about.
" Another Owd Codger "

Offline LazyBkpr

  • Gold Member
  • Posts: 6842
  • Thanked: 205 times
  • Gender: Male
  • www.outyard.net
    • The Outyard
  • Location: Richland Iowa
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #115 on: December 13, 2015, 09:46:06 pm »
OA is too cheap as it stands... They have to make MONEY on it somehow...   I have about 10 lbs, and just ordered 20 lbs more. Store in cool DRY place....   LOT of hives to treat in the spring...
Drinking RUM before noon makes you a PIRATE not an alcoholic!

*Sponsor*

Offline skydiver

  • Regular Member
  • **
  • Posts: 58
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Fennville, michigan
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #116 on: December 23, 2015, 11:03:43 pm »
OA Only one of the three application methods is good. The other two could do harm to bees.  http://www.sussex.ac.uk/broadcast/read/33537   
                                                                                                           
below copied from link above


Scientists determine how to control parasite without harming bees

A "phoretic" Varroa mite on the body of a honey bee. Photo courtesy of Alex Wild.

A honey bee hive being treated with oxalic acid via sublimation. The oxalic acid vapour is normally confined to the inside of the hive but is shown here for illustration.

Scientists at the University of Sussex have determined the best way of controlling Varroa mites – one of the biggest threats facing honey bees – without harming the bees themselves.

A team from the Laboratory of Apiculture and Social Insects (LASI) has determined the best dose and method for treating hives with oxalic acid, a naturally occurring chemical already being used by beekeepers to control Varroa.

The study, published today (Thursday 17 December 2015) in the Journal of Apicultural Research, shows that two of the three methods used by beekeepers to apply the chemical cause harm to bee colonies, resulting in reduced winter survival.

But one method – sublimation, by which the chemical is vapourised inside the hive using an electrically heated tool – has no negative effect on the bees. In fact, colonies treated in this way had 20% more bees four months later than untreated colonies.

It is also the easiest to use, the deadliest to the mites - killing 97% with one application - and is effective at lower doses than the other methods.

What’s more, it only costs a few pence to treat each hive.

Professor Francis Ratnieks, head of LASI, says that beekeepers should cease using the other two methods ("trickling" and "spraying", in which a solution of oxalic acid is used) as they are harmful to the bees and less effective at killing Varroa.

Professor Ratnieks says: “It is almost too good to be true that sublimation, the best method for killing Varroa with oxalic acid, also has no harmful effects on the bees, and is the quickest to apply.

“Beekeepers should only use the sublimation method. If they apply oxalic acid in this way, they can be confident that it will kill most of the mites and will not harm the bees.”

Varroa mites harm honey bees directly and also spread virus diseases that kill colonies.

Controlling Varroa was at first simple, as the product Apistan could be used. Apistan contains a synthetic chemical that kills 99% of the Varroa but is not harmful to the bees. However, Varroa have now evolved resistance to the active ingredient.

Previous research has shown that oxalic acid is able to kill Varroa but nobody had compared different doses and application methods, nor quantified the proportion of Varroa killed.

LASI’s research, which was funded by the Esmée Fairbairn Foundation and Rowse Honey Ltd,  filled these important gaps.

Notes for editors

For further information, please contact Francis Ratnieks at +44 (0) 7766270434 or F.Ratnieks@Sussex.ac.uk

University of Sussex Media Relations contacts: James Hakner (01273 877966) and Jacqui Bealing (01273 877437) – press@sussex.ac.uk

‘Towards integrated control of varroa: comparing application methods and doses of oxalic acid on the mortality of phoretic Varroa destructor mites and their honey bee hosts’ by Hasan Al Toufailia, Luciano Scandian and Francis Ratnieks is available at:- http://www.tandfonline.com/action/showAxaArticles?journalCode=tjar20

About the research

The study used 110 bee hives in Sussex, UK, in the winter of 2012/3 and another 90 in winter 2013/4.

The hives were all without brood, as occurs naturally in winter. Broodlessness is important. Varroa are found in two locations in a hive: 1) In sealed brood cells (i.e., a cell with a pupal bee), where the female mites lay their eggs and where the young mites develop by feeding on the blood of the pupa; 2) Phoretic: clinging to the body of adult worker bees. Oxalic acid only kills Varroa in position 2.

Three application methods already being used by beekeepers were compared: 1) sublimation, in which crystals of oxalic acid are vaporized using a special heated tool inserted into the hive entrance; 2) trickling, in which the lid of the hive is removed and a solution of oxalic acid is poured onto the bees; 3) spraying, as in trickling, except the frames of bees are sprayed with the solution.

Three doses were used, 1.125, 2.25 and 4.5 grams per hive.

The proportion of Varroa killed was determined by extracting mites from a sample of approximately 300 worker bees, taken immediately before treatment and again 2 weeks later. The mites are extracted with a jet of water and counted. If the first sample had 25 mites per 100 bees and the second 1 mite per 100 bees, then the mortality is 24/25 or 96%.

In addition, the project quantified possible harmful effects of oxalic acid, both in terms of the number of worker bees killed at the time of treatment and the mortality and strength of the colonies four months later in spring.

The project was led by PhD student Hasan Al Toufailia, whose PhD was funded by the University of Damascus, and Professor Ratnieks with the assistance of beekeeping technician Luciano Scandian.
skydivers do not want to jump to a conclusion!
The following users thanked this post: Perry

Offline Perry

  • Global Moderator
  • Gold Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 7382
  • Thanked: 390 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Brandt's Bees
  • Location: Annapolis Valley, Nova Scotia
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #117 on: December 24, 2015, 07:29:12 am »
Thanks Skydiver.
"It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor."      
Forum Supporter

Offline efmesch

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1690
  • Thanked: 201 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Israel
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #118 on: December 24, 2015, 12:16:48 pm »
I passed the link on to the bee advisors in Israel.  So far, they have run some experiments on using OA by way of solution trickled on the bees (encouraging results) but they have been hesitant about sublimation.  I'm trying to encourage them to move in this direction, but it might take a while before it catches on.

Offline LazyBkpr

  • Gold Member
  • Posts: 6842
  • Thanked: 205 times
  • Gender: Male
  • www.outyard.net
    • The Outyard
  • Location: Richland Iowa
Re: Oxalic Acid Discussion
« Reply #119 on: December 24, 2015, 11:19:57 pm »
Always thought it a bit strange that 50 different research teams had to ignore all previous tests and results and find out the same thing. I have been seeing the same results from similar tests for about three years, and I think Randy Olivers site even posts similar results from his own research and the research results from others from a couple years back..
   Of course, if they didnt run the tests themselves they would never get the funding to spend testing an already proven method of treating mites via OA Sublimation...  On the plus side, its another positive result with no (apparent at this time) negative results, at least with sublimation. The trickle or drench was also already proven to shorten the life of the bees..  Not necessarily enough to harm a strong spring/summer colony, but when used on winter bees it can have an impact on the lifespan of the winter bees. Shortening the life of a bee that needs to survive the winter isnt beneficial... shortening the life of a spring summer bee that has a life expectancy of six weeks or so isnt as noticeable... still, i choose not to cause additional harm if I can help it. Good post. Thanks Skydiver!
Drinking RUM before noon makes you a PIRATE not an alcoholic!

*Sponsor*