Author Topic: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed  (Read 3380 times)

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Online The15thMember

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Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« on: April 11, 2023, 10:11:42 pm »
When I went up to my apiary to inspect today, I noticed a huge pile of dead bees in front of one of my hives, so I decided to open them up and take a look.  At first I wasn't concerned, as there seemed to be a fair number of bees in the top box, although I did notice a few dysentery stains inside the hive.  But as I took the top box off, a bunch of bees flew out of the second box, with that trademark "robber-fleeing-the-scene" look about them.  There were hardly any bees in the bottom box, and I noticed a pile of bees on the slatted rack, so I removed the bottom box as well.  Then I saw the bottom board.  :cry:  You can see the carnage for yourself in the pictures. 

Here's the background: I split this queen's hive on 3/23.  This half of the split contained the original queen, Queen Persephone.  I did a sugar roll on the hive the same day I split them, and there were no mites.  (All my hives came off the winter clean or mathematically so.)  I did queen cell reduction on the queenless half of the split on 4/1, and they looked completely fine.  Sometime last week, I noticed this hive, the one with the queen, had a big pile of dead drones out front, which I assumed was a result of a little cold snap we had, but today all the dead bees were workers.  There was traffic coming in and out of the entrance, but I'm pretty sure they were just robbers, as they all left in disarray when I started to take the hive apart, then returned to continue to snoop about as I was dealing with the situation, and then started bugging the hive next door when I removed the equipment. 

I noticed the queen, who was being well attended, on the top bars of the top box, so I put her in my queen catcher for safe keeping while I worked.  Nothing about her seemed amiss.  Most of the bees in the top box looked fine, although a few were a little sluggish.  The craziest part was that the brood nest, comprising the majority of the bottom two boxes, also looked basically normal.  The brood pattern wasn't perfect, but it certainly wasn't shotgunned, and this queen has never been a perfectly orderly layer.  I'm pretty sure the brood was dead, since we had a very cold night last night, and something about it just seemed, I don't know, not alive.  But with the exception of a very few larvae/pupae that had some black spots on them (picture in next post), the brood was white, almost all of the young brood was fed, and there were eggs in the bottom box, which indicates to me that 3 days ago, everything was normal.  There was no honey anywhere, and there were some dead adults with their heads in cells, but we have lots of spring flowers blooming, so I can't see how they could have starved.  I'm assuming the stores were robbed out. 

I decided to shake all the surviving bees into clean equipment on a different stand, that way the robbers would be confused, and I could clean out all the equipment.  I put them in a single medium with a very reduced entrance, and I gave them 3 partial frames of honey, 1 of pollen, and the remaining 4 drawn blanks.  I did see one mite on one of the surviving workers.  I froze as many frames as I could fit in my freezer and buried the dead bees in the compost pile.  The dead bees looked very normal.  Some had tongues out and some didn't.  All had all their hair, and very few were struggling in the dead pile.  Those that were just looked sluggish or were on their backs and weakly moving their legs.   

All the other hives, as far as I know, are seemingly normal.  I inspected one other hive today, and they were a little bit low on food, and also oddly had no open brood in their bottom box, but nothing overly alarming.  I also did QC reduction in my mean hive, and while I didn't inspect their honey super, when I removed it, it felt quite heavy.  As I mentioned, we have lots of flowers blooming, the redbuds, crabapples, and dogwoods are all going very strong.  In spite of our coldish nighttime temps lately, we haven't had a frost, since it's been dry.  The days have been warm, and the hives have been cranking.  I collected a swarm today, which I'm pretty sure was from one of my other colonies.     

What do you guys think happened?


I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Jen

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2023, 01:11:36 am »
Don'tcha hate it when that happens! I lost a hive a couple months ago with what sounds much like your scenario. I haven't lost a hive in years!

First question: Do you use quilt boxes?


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Offline iddee

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2023, 03:53:25 am »
Pesticide.......
“Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”
― Shel Silverstein
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Online The15thMember

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2023, 10:12:12 am »
Don'tcha hate it when that happens! I lost a hive a couple months ago with what sounds much like your scenario. I haven't lost a hive in years!

First question: Do you use quilt boxes?
This is the first time this has happened to me.  Oh it's awful!  It makes me sick.  Such a waste!  :sad:  I do use quilt boxes, but only over the winter.  The hives are big enough by this time of year to regulate their temperature, unless it dips far below freezing, which I think we are out of the woods for by this time in the spring.

Pesticide.......
Ugh, that's what I figured.  I just wanted to hear people's opinions without influencing them with mine.  I just really hope whatever it is isn't dangerous for long, and that the other bees don't find it!
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2023, 12:03:59 pm »
I am doing some fact finding, but you can send those dead bees out to be tested for pesticide exposure.  I think you will want to freeze some of them to send, but I am not sure.  There may be some cost involved.
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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2023, 01:53:44 pm »
I am doing some fact finding, but you can send those dead bees out to be tested for pesticide exposure.  I think you will want to freeze some of them to send, but I am not sure.  There may be some cost involved.
I should have thought of that.  I buried them all in the compost pile.  I'll keep that in mind if it happens again, or if the rest of the colony doesn't make it. 

With an incident like this, what should I do in the way of cleaning the equipment?  Do I need to be concerned that the hive itself is contaminated?  Is this a vinegar thing, a bleach thing, a lay out in the sun for a few days thing?  I'll be freezing all the comb anyway, since it's a good opportunity to get rid of waxworms and beetles, but how much should I worry about the woodenware?  What about the comb? 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline iddee

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2023, 02:27:42 pm »
 I stand to be corrected, but I think all pesticides today have a short active time span, so a week's rest should make it all safe.
“Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”
― Shel Silverstein
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Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2023, 05:08:50 pm »
15th you might be able to contact your state's Dept, of Agriculture and see if there is someone who can test your bees.  You might want to do your homework now in case another colony gets into the same pesticides. Also ask them the procedure for handling and shipping the sample.
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Offline iddee

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“Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”
― Shel Silverstein

Offline Jen

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2023, 07:15:36 pm »
15th, is this a hive that stands alone? Because if there are other hives standing with this one, it would make sense that bees in the other hives would have bee death as well.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2023, 07:26:57 pm »
Jen, when a hive finds a source of food, it stays with it until it plays out. If the other hives didn't find it until after the pesticides' effective life span, no other hives will be affected.
“Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”
― Shel Silverstein
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Offline Jen

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2023, 02:24:22 pm »
Hi Iddee, that makes sense as well  :)
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Offline Zweefer

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2023, 06:34:15 pm »
Sorry for your loss @15th
Keeping of bees is like the direction of sunbeams.
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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2023, 06:11:58 pm »
They're still alive!  :)  I haven't notice any robbing or foraging since I put them in this new box, so I peeked in at them today and the population appears stable.  No more bees are dying, and everyone looks healthy.  The queen had a section of eggs about the size of my palm on two frames, and they still had plenty of stores.  I thought about giving them a frame of capped brood to boost them up, but I'm not sure they have enough workers to keep more babies warm at the moment, so I just left them the way they are.   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Jen

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2023, 12:42:19 am »
Good News! Some hives just take a hit and it seems there is no reasonable answer. But it looks like to me, that you made the right choice. Very instinctive I might add. Nurse this one along all year and the chances are great that you will have a big strong hive next spring.

I'd like to add ... don't take too long to add another frame of brood and nurse bees. I have seen where the bees may consider the queen faulty if she isn't lay enough .. for too long. So they supersede, and the new queen can't really do any better than the original queen... if there isn't enough nurse bees. Good story here 15th  :)

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Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2023, 10:28:09 am »
Thanks for keep us updated 15th.  I'm glad they survived. 
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Offline iddee

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2023, 11:24:33 am »
Rather than giving them brood, maybe just swapping places with a larger hive when they are out foraging. Then the foragers from the larger hive will take up with them, bring in more food and bees without more brood to feed just yet.
“Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”
― Shel Silverstein
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Online The15thMember

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2023, 11:39:53 am »
Rather than giving them brood, maybe just swapping places with a larger hive when they are out foraging. Then the foragers from the larger hive will take up with them, bring in more food and bees without more brood to feed just yet.
That's a great idea!  I'm going to do that.  Thanks, Wally. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Jen

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2023, 12:40:07 pm »
Aaahhh Yesss! That is a great idea Mr. Wizard! I'm just now getting my spring bee brain on after a loong winter. I forgot about this idea  :)
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Offline Zweefer

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Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2023, 09:04:23 pm »
I'm just now getting my spring bee brain on after a loong winter. I forgot about this idea  :)
it was in the 80's last week.  Now it is 31 and we are in the middle of a snowstorm that is expected to give us 3-7 inches.  Gotta love Wisconsin!

Super happy for you! always great to have good news.
Keeping of bees is like the direction of sunbeams.
Henry David Thoreau