Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: Jen on March 17, 2014, 11:04:35 pm
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This is Crazy! I've been switching out plastic frames with new wood and wax frames for the last 6 weeks or so. The bees are wandering around on them, but no pulled wax, no business whatsoever!
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what's the colonies strength like, it might be simply a matter of Bees of the right age
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Just watch what that swarm will do to them!!
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to draw foundation you need a combination of a good honey flow and a lack of existing comb to store that nectar. Chances are pretty good this time of year they are using everything that comes in and have lots of empty cells to store any surplus. Once they run out of room they will start drawing comb.
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Barry - This is my mother hive, the one the swarm just left from. There were plenty of bees of all ages from the last 6 weeks
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G3 - These frames are in the mother hive that the swarm just left from
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Pistol- ""to draw foundation you need a combination of a good honey flow and a lack of existing comb to store that nectar. Chances are pretty good this time of year they are using everything that comes in and have lots of empty cells to store any surplus. Once they run out of room they will start drawing comb""
That makes a lot of sense. Except my hive just swarmed yesterday, not sure why, but the top deep was stuffed with bees and brood and 6 swarm cells. So I assume that they had run out of room already...
The science part of the hive is where I'm lacking. I'll be patient and keep an eye on it.
;) 8)
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When I want my bees to draw wax foundation I use a double box set up..... one above the other.
The lower box contains 4 or 5 frames of combs of brood, bees and stores plus a dummy (division, follower) board.
The box above has frames of combs of brood, bees and stores plus one frame of foundation and a dummy board. The frames in the upper box are positioned immediately above the frames in the lower box.
If there is not a good nectar flow on, I will feed the colony.
With the foundation above, it is more likely for the comb to be drawn out down to the bottom bar.
To encourage the bees onto the foundation, some keeps brush the surface with syrup.
As long as the bees have foundation to draw it is unlikely for them to build wild comb outside the dummy board.
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a Jen snip...
So I assume that they had run out of room already...
tecumseh...
there is more to swarming than simply running out of room. There is a long list of variable that one need to think about when it comes to swarming
if you want the foundation drawn then feed, feed, feed > one particular experiment Randy Oliver perform was to take one fairly robust single deep, add a single deep of foundation above this and then feed, feed, feed until they began to drawn out the top box.... I think he said that it took almost 6 gallons of syrup to get that job done.... he was using standard plasticell foundation which I myself think does not have enough wax on the surface unless you place these on a hive at exactly the right time.
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if you want the foundation drawn then feed, feed, feed > one particular experiment Randy Oliver perform was to take one fairly robust single deep, add a single deep of foundation above this and then feed, feed, feed until they began to drawn out the top box.... I think he said that it took almost 6 gallons of syrup to get that job done.... he was using standard plasticell foundation which I myself think does not have enough wax on the surface unless you place these on a hive at exactly the right time.
Exactly what I was going to say. Lots of syrup.
You might try squirting/spritzing some syrup on the frames, too.
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Where are you putting the frames in the hive you are wanting drawn out? If they are in the outside position they will be slow to draw. If you put a frame in next to brood nest they will draw it quicker. In late spring when temps are warmer, I will insert a frame into the brood nest they will pull it even quicker. It boils down to Bees will not pull wax unless the think they need the room.
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Bar- interesting concept! and I was in my mother hive yesterday eliminating some of the queen cells, so I took the opportunity to spray some syrup on the new foundations :)
Tec-""if you want the foundation drawn then feed, feed, feed > one particular experiment Randy Oliver perform was to take one fairly robust single deep, add a single deep of foundation above this and then feed, feed, feed until they began to drawn out the top box.... I think he said that it took almost 6 gallons of syrup to get that job done.... he was using standard plasticell foundation which I myself think does not have enough wax on the surface unless you place these on a hive at exactly the right time.""
So I've been feeding winter patties thru Feb, then the weather got real warm and I switched to 1:1 syrup for the last couple of weeks. Probably haven't been feeding long enough.
Riverrat- I put one wood/wax foundation right in the middle of the brood nest, then one on each side of the brood nest. And I rotate around as well.
We've got dandelions now, so a flow is in Go mode now. I'll keep checking.... THANKS EVERYONE!
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May I ask why you were eliminating queen cells?
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I switched to 1:1 syrup for the last couple of weeks. Probably haven't been feeding long enough.
Are they taking the syrup? You might want to put a little HBH or lemon juice in the syrup to help with the pH and make it taste better to attract them more.
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Iddee ""May I ask why you were eliminating queen cells?""
Hi Iddee! ~~~ my husband said to say "Because a couple of someones told me too!" :D
This stems back to last year when my one and only hive swarmed three times with in two weeks. The first swarm being HUGE! the other two being much smaller.
I was in the hive just the day before the swarming cleaning off gnarly burr comb and spotted 6 queen cells. The next day the swarm happened.
So it was suggested to go back into the hive and leave two queen cells, eliminate all others to avoid more swarming.
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yes you have to make sure there's at least one queen cell left to hatch, more than 2 and you risk the after swarms that you were talking about before.
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Which two? I never felt I could choose better than the bees. If I remove any, they go in a nuc. I never destroy them.
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Iddee- ""Which two? I never felt I could choose better than the bees. If I remove any, they go in a nuc. I never destroy them.""
I like your advice... However...
I've only had one hive so far, I have very limited supplies. I don't have a nuc, and I don't have another deep. I wasn't sure that I could make a nuc out of a medium. Because of last years experience I'm doing what I think is right at this stage in my learning... trying to avoid another swarm. I was fortunate in that I was home when the swarm left, otherwise I would have never known half of my bees were gone, and the night time temp that night dropped below freezing.
Now I have new questions ~ like how long do I wait to see if the mother hive has a mated queen? BUT DON'T ANSWER THIS NOW, I'LL START A NEW THREAD :) 8)
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A medium makes a very nice nuc.
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Okee Dokee, Thanks! ;) 8)
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"This is Crazy! I've been switching out plastic frames with new wood and wax frames for the last 6 weeks or so. The bees are wandering around on them, but no pulled wax, no business whatsoever!"
"it might be simply a matter of Bees of the right age"
"Just watch what that swarm will do to them!!"
"to draw foundation you need a combination of a good honey flow and a lack of existing comb to store that nectar. Chances are pretty good this time of year they are using everything that comes in and have lots of empty cells to store any surplus. Once they run out of room they will start drawing comb."
"This is my mother hive, the one the swarm just left from. There were plenty of bees of all ages from the last 6 weeks"
"there is more to swarming than simply running out of room. There is a long list of variable that one need to think about when it comes to swarming"
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jen, just catching up, and also read your swarmed hive thread.....
like iddee, i don't cut any swarm cells, i leave them bee.....or utilize them in a nuc.
my humble two cents about why your bees weren't drawing wax? they were in swarm mode. tecumseh said it best really, there is more to swarming.
swarming preps starts taking place several weeks before lift off. they are not going to be interested in drawing comb. they are preparing to swarm. they are going to leave. lots of activities take place or cease prior to a swarm issuing, like lack of foraging, bees restless and 'wandering around on the comb'. queen cells. also the queen is slimmed down so that she can fly, bees engorge themselves for their new home, and off they go. more complex than that. so a clue as to why your bees were not drawing out the comb...
age of the bee to draw wax, very young bees; i think between age 12 and 20 days.
the feeding you did probably helped them if they were short on stores but also escalated the swarming, especially if they were congested , ran out of room on combs, and ran out of space above.
typically bees will draw foundation with a good honey flow on, lots of young bees in the hive at this time in the spring of the year, this really is the best time to utilize the bees to draw comb. i find that the bees will draw foundation well, after i have divided them (to keep them from swarming) and before the main flow, so they get back to normal business, like drawing comb . what g3 said, swarms draw comb very well, their honey stomachs are full, and lots of young bees to draw wax to store what they brought with them. even when it's your own hive. :D
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Come on guys really?
Your going to leave six or eight swarm cells in a hive?
She doesnt want more hives or nuc's, and she doesnt want more swarms.. I leaned a long time ago that six or eight swarm cells will very often cause after swarms, and have seen it happen first hand.
I agree that the bees know best, except when they have three, four, or six queens emerging. I have seen an afterswarm with only TWO queen cells in a hive... It was always my belief that the queens would fight, one would die, and all would be well, but that isn't the way it always works.
Your giving advice to someone that does not have four or six hives, she has two, she only wants two. I try to give her the best advice I can putting myself in her shoes. I honestly feel that the conflicting advice is not doing her any favors. Nor is it geared toward her situation, circumstances, purpose or means.
If I had swarm cells I would make as many nuc's as I had cells, but thats not in her plans.
I can take a hit on my beliefs, and in fact appreciate them, because it makes me learn, but I don't feel the advice given for this situation measures up.
I have a lot to get done, so I am going to take a break for a while. I'll talk to yall when I get back, I hope Spring finds you well prepared and your hives strong!
Scott
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Also temperature will effect the building of comb
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Lazy, we normally give conflicting advice in beekeeping. It give members a choice. She is not the only one that will be reading these posts. No one said you were wrong, just gave another way to do it. As you've said before, we all have our way of beekeeping and we share those ways. The reader takes all of them, mixes well, adds his/her own, and then has the recipe that works for them.
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Will a hive swarm itself to death? I mean, would a hive produce so many after-swarms the the numbers would be so reduced the original hive would perish?
Just a curiosity question this thread engendered. I had never considered that.
I like all the different answers. I'm sort of in between Jen and ya'll so it is interesting to hear the different thoughts. And I somehow reckon Jen is fiery enough to figure out which advice she wants to follow ;).
Thanks all!
love,
ziffa
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When i find swarm cells the first thing i do is look for the queen, and if they have not already swarmed and i find her she goes in a nuc.(they will not leave without a queen) I will leave two swarm cells and make nucs with the others, they may go ahead and swarm when the new queen hatches, but if you reduce there work force making up nucs i have found they are less likely to swarm. The way i look at it, at lease i kept most of the hives work force and gained more hives to keep or sale, so the only thing i lost is the honey crop i was going to lose anyway. So thats the way i do it. :P Jack :laugh:
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Will a hive swarm itself to death? I mean, would a hive produce so many after-swarms the the numbers would be so reduced the original hive would perish?
Just a curiosity question this thread engendered. I had never considered that.
Yes it is possible for a hive to swarm itself to death under the right conditions.
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remember the survival of hive is a matter of numbers. if you have a series of after swarms that will deplete the population of the hive changing its status from a strong colony, to a weak or mediocre colony, headed by a Virgin Queen, the numbers are working against you. how long does it take for a queen to get mated, how long after that before she lays the first egg. 21 days later the first bees come on to the scene that's quite a bit of time in a bees life. by the time the first of the new bees are able to forage, the dying off of the older forages will be well in progress. also you will probably be into that period of time in the summer, when resources are becoming harder and harder to find. so the short answer is yes you can after swarm colony to death, for the reasons mentioned.
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I had never considered that. It definitely puts a new light on swarm management.
Thanks all!
love,
ziffa
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Ziffa, I hadn't concidered it either. But now that I look back to last year, I can easily see how a 'swarm to death' can happen.
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it can even be the time a swarm is issued, to late in the year the swarm hasn't the time needed to build up for winter, and the hive that the bees swarmed from could miss out on brood production of the needed winter bees for the colony to survive.
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Scott - ""Your going to leave six or eight swarm cells in a hive?
She doesnt want more hives or nuc's, and she doesnt want more swarms.. I learned a long time ago that six or eight swarm cells will very often cause after sYour giving advice to someone that does not have four or six hives, she has two, she only wants two. I try to give her the best advice I can putting myself in her shoes. I honestly feel that the conflicting advice is not doing her any favors. Nor is it geared toward her situation, circumstances, purpose or means.warms, and have seen it happen first hand.""
Thank You Scott, you are a gentleman and a scholar! ;) 8)
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""Thank You Scott, you are a gentleman and a scholar!""
And your generosity is exceeded only by your good looks and your grand personality.
:P ;D :D :D
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Lol
nothing Snide here
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What you should do if you only want 2 hives is get two nucs and right as your main flow gets going good pull your queens and put her in the nuc with a frame or two of brood and bees and some stores. Then wait like 2 weeks and open your hives and kill all QCs then wait another 2 weeks and put her back . I pull all my queens like that in my DBL. deeps but I let the DBL. deeps requeen themselves and the nucs I let grow in two new hives works for me . I had no swarms out of 10 DBL. deeps last year doing this and got a pile of honey .
If your bees are swarming your not going to get much honey you need to learn some SPM {swarm prevention management}https://agdev.anr.udel.edu/maarec/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Swarm_Prev_Control_PM.pdf
Swarming ~ Control Maarec (https://agdev.anr.udel.edu/maarec/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Swarm_Prev_Control_PM.pdf)
And I mean that in the most nicest way. good luck.
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Glock, I think you need to do a bit more math. Pull the queen today and the bees make queen cells from larva that are in day 3 or 4. Wait 2 weeks, or 14 days, and the cell is at day 17 or 18. The queen emerged on day 16.
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You are right I don't know what I was thinking sorry.
I was thinking from the day the egg was laid 14 days.
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Glock ""If your bees are swarming your not going to get much honey you need to learn some SPM {swarm prevention management}https://agdev.anr.udel.edu/maarec/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Swarm_Prev_Control_PM.pdf
And I mean that in the most nicest way. good luck.""
Thanks Glock, you are always a gentleman :) Ironically I was learning about swarm prevention.. nucs.. splitting n'such all winter, and was re-reading up on it last week... but the bees were ahead of me! So far all is well, and we have some mediums built now in case of after swarms.
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jen,
more articles on swarm management here, you may have read them, post #1:
Swarming & Swarm Management (http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php/topic,673.15.html)
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Thanks Riv- ;) 8)
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Oh indeed, Good looking and Grand Personality.. its taken my wife 25 years to develop my personality.. thats a LOT of training!!!! Yes, I have fought her the ENTIRE way, kicking and screaming while she dragged me in...
I understand a lot of folks may well read this post, but if were going to consider them all instead of just Jens situation I could write a book that is only marginally flawed that would likely encompass better than 100 pages of VERY accurate guesses from personal experience, as well as a plethora of second hand information that I have accumulated in a sticky lump somewhere in my head, that I almost remember.. ;D
When I get fixated on one situation I get confused easily when the parameters change.
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Scott- ""I understand a lot of folks may well read this post, but if were going to consider them all instead of just Jens situation I could write a book that is only marginally flawed that would likely encompass better than 100 pages of VERY accurate guesses from personal experience,''
Okay.... So Write The Book All Ready! Seriously! Many of us know that your have been in and amongst the bees through out your life since your were 13. At least you started with a mentor, many - if not most of us, don't have a mentor, we have forums... and many of us don't even have that.
In my case, I had been gathering my printed reading to get ready to split or for a swarm, maybe a nuc. I was settling in to read for a handful of days. I stepped out into my backyard and the sky had changed color. I'll leave out the cuss words. Long story short, after my first attempt to get the swarm back into my yard, I ran to this forum. Got some information on how to acquire the rest of the swarm. THEN, I got a pm. Scott LazyBkpr said, 'Jen, calm down, take a breath, relax, mix a drink.'
From there you took me step by step on what to do next. Do this first. Take a sip of your drink. Get this ready now. Look for that. do you have a queen excluder? Look for the queen now. Have another sip of your drink. Breathe. Get a frame of brood. Now leave them alone a couple of days.
See? You are an awesome instructor! write a book! nuf said ;D 8)