Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: DonMcJr on March 27, 2014, 11:33:46 pm
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So...Our Bee Club has Packages coming around April 10th. Temps have been around 35F day and 25F night.
Lets just say the Worst Scenario it stay that way from the time we get the bees and another 2-3 Weeks.
Or even just a few days... Any Sugar Syrup will surely freeze right? How are these bees going to survive with no comb built and nothing to build comb with?
I'm thinking possibly Just sugar on Newspaper with a shim?
Feed 1:1 in Mason Jars over the inner cover with an empty Medium then top cover?
I'd like everyones opinion because I don't want 25+ new beekeepers all losing their Bees in the 1st month!
Already called the Supplier that gets the packages from Cali and he said he was trying to get the date pushed back but so far it didn't look like it would be possible...and they are a pretty big supplier for Michigan...
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When I NEED to get syrup into them to treat for nosema etc and its cold, I use a baggie directly on the top bars over the cluster. However.. 25 is colder than I have ever attempted to get them to take syrup..
thats a dire situation right there...
What would i do in your shoes......
I have to say, i would put sugar on. if its warm enough in the daytime, I would put syrup on as well, then take it back off when it started to cool down. take it inside and warm it up for the next morning to put it back on.....
I might even consider screening them and bringing them in at night.
I hope someone else pipes in here. Never been in that situation before.....
I ordered nucs for the first weekend in May, Packages and queens for the middle of May JUST to make sure I would have better temps.
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Good question. In the next week or two there will be hundreds of packages arriving in Nova Scotia, but almost every single one of them will be put into boxes with comb having stores.
Fondant is another solution, and is easy for bees to take.
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I use fondant even in warmer weather... when bees can fly they don't really need it now and when they can't they have the fondant. I also put a pollen patty on them.
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dang them Canadian are smart. or pehaps have faced the same problem themselves????
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Fondant...as in cake icing? ???
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Or even just a few days... Any Sugar Syrup will surely freeze right? How are these bees going to survive with no comb built and nothing to build comb with?
Syrup will not freeze at the temperatures you stated. Adding sugar to water lowers the freezing point. I actually left a few mason jars of 2:1 behind in one of my yards this winter and they did not break.
If you feed inverted jars on the inner cover I would not be concerned with freezing. I think the key here is that these are new beeks, I'm sure they are ready to watch over like a new born baby. So you can use methods that may not be feasible for large commercial-like installs. I would suggest putting a warm pint/quart of syrup over the inner cover hole daily. They will suck down warm syrup rather quickly and it is the quickest and easiest way for them to get sustenance.
I'm thinking possibly Just sugar on Newspaper with a shim?
I wouldn't do this. It takes them a lot of effort to make sugar useful. Where are they going to get the water from? Overwintered hives can use moisture given off by honey consumption.
Feed 1:1 in Mason Jars over the inner cover with an empty Medium then top cover?
I think this is your best bet. Give them warm syrup once a day. Key is warm, don't just look to see if they have syrup as they will not take cold syrup very well, if at all. Worst case just rotate between two jars if there is a long cold period.
I have installed packages in the middle of a blizzard and did not have any issues. Remember, they have no brood to care for, so they can cluster right under the feeder lid. Chances are they will only have to deal with this for a few days at most without getting a warm period.
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Fondant...as in cake icing? ???
Absolutely! :yes:
Just make sure you don't buy off the grocery store shelf variety as it contains stuff that could be harmful to bees.
Contact a bakery or bakery supply place and get the stuff that only has 3 ingredients: Sugar, Water, and Glucose! I buy Dawn fondant from the states.
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The shippers pay attention of the weather. I bet they will delay shipment.
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The shippers pay attention of the weather. I bet they will delay shipment.
I sure hope so... but as it looks they are coming on a Big Semi Load from CA and it looks like the company is more concerned about the Trucking Dates and not the weather...unless something has changed since I called them last...
Warm 1:1 over inner cover hole it is... Fondant is going to be too hard to get for 25 new beekeepers!
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They will suck down warm syrup rather quickly and it is the quickest and easiest way for them to get sustenance.
Mine wont touch the syrup. Even warm syrup on a 54 degree day. I am still trying but they are as yet uninterested.
Don;
I'm thinking possibly Just sugar on Newspaper with a shim?
Robo
I wouldn't do this. It takes them a lot of effort to make sugar useful. Where are they going to get the water from? Overwintered hives can use moisture given off by honey consumption.
That is what mine are currently eating, along with a bit of the pollen patties. Where are they getting the water?? I have no clue when they are not flying...
I am trying the baggies and the jars over the inner cover. No bees at the jars, one or two on the baggies, hundreds in the sugar, dozens in the pollen patties when I pull the jars and baggies off in the evenings.. so... thats all I really have to go on in this situation.. Jars and ziplock baggies not working....
Best try to go with Robo's suggestion, but be prepared for ALT methods?
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The shippers pay attention of the weather. I bet they will delay shipment.
The problem is the queens need to be pulled from the mating nucs so the next cells can be placed for mating. It is more likely bees will be delayed because of poor weather, buildup and queen mating problems, than the package producers to put off shipping. The hives will be so full of bees that they have no other choice but to shake them and to get the mated queens out of the nucs so more cells can be introduced.
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As Robo said sugar syrup will not freeze unless it is extremely cold. The bees will suck up the syrup when it is cold to survive on and to create heat. They will not store or build comb with cold syrup but the bees will not build much comb if the weather is cold anyway. The bees will sit in the hive and do little until the weather warms up especially when on foundation and I think it will be even worse if you are running foundation-less frames.
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I'm in the same boat Don. 10 packages and no comb for 5 of them.
M. Bush claims that bees won't even take syrup if syrup is below 50 something degrees F.
I'm thinking very warm syrup, in quart jars in a heavily insulated box over the cluster. Maybe even wrap the hives?
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M. Bush claims that bees won't even take syrup if syrup is below 50 something degrees F.
Depends on what your definition of "take syrup" is. Just think about it... Do you really think bees will starve to death at 50F if there is only syrup (or even nectar) available?
I think Apis described it best. They won't use the syrup expand, but they will feed off of it and that is all they need to do. They do not have brood to keep warm, so they can cluster as tight as they need to keep warm.
I know it is easy for us to give advice, but you have a lot invested and need to proceed with whatever makes you feel comfortable, whether it be adding extra insulation or wrapping hives. It will surely not hurt them, but just require more effort on your part. Package bees are pretty robust, the downside is the longer it takes them to start building the less bees they will have to create the build-up.
Good Luck....
Rob....
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M. Bush may be correct if fed in a boardman. If fed in a top feeder bucket, jar, or baggie, what temp would you guess it to be at the top of a 5 or 6 lb. cluster, where the feeding is taking place?
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This doesn't really apply to the current situation but I'll throw it out there anyway.
Last year it came about that I had a queen born mid Sept. she had two frames of bees from her mating nuc and two frames of brood from another hive pluses a couple frames of honey.
When I saw that they weren't going to be able to store enough food I used Walt Wrights method of putting syrup in empty comb with a can that had a few small holes in the bottom.
This method works quite well I thought. I went thru the hive yesterday. Their brooding up good but won't need a second box for a couple weeks. Still had quite a bit of stores though. They have syrup on top now but their not taking much.
I realize these guys may not have access to any drawn comb.
I believe if I was in this situation I would try to hive them in a heated garage or something similar till the weather broke or they got some comb drawn.
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Rob;
I know it is easy for us to give advice, but you have a lot invested and need to proceed with whatever makes you feel comfortable, whether it be adding extra insulation or wrapping hives. It will surely not hurt them, but just require more effort on your part. Package bees are pretty robust, the downside is the longer it takes them to start building the less bees they will have to create the build-up.
Cant argue with that! /signed
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Finished hiving 10 packages about 5 pm today. 45 F when I started and 32 F with a few snowflakes when I finished. The 6 installed in my deadout deeps, I'm feeding with baggies. The 4 installed in medium deep new hives, I'm jar feeding. The 4 new hives are residing on the front porch, for now.
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Howdy Ray...must a missed ya at AWS...we were in and out around 3 PM pretty quick. Hived my 2 packages and boy when i shook them in were they mad! I got stung on the 1st package and a Club member Sean who never packaged a hive and came to watch me volunteer to shake the 2nd package in and he got popped too!
They must not have liked being shook out of their warm cluster! 1st ever sting in 4 years!
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That is a little odd compared to my own experiences with packages... I've never worn a veil etc when installing packages and never been stung doing it. I have helped a fair number of people install packages as well.
Nuc's are a very different story.. I expect it to be very possible transferring a nuc to a hive.
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I got stung 6 times hiving 10. I think it was the cold weather too.
I have my fingers crossed 20 F this morning, warmed up to 26 :'(
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs7.postimg.cc%2Ft7d52513b%2F41614snow_001.jpg&hash=5b454da8b2b0f38156c88979cefdb4b6dd623405) (http://postimg.cc/image/t7d52513b/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs30.postimg.cc%2Fi3k8hsdrh%2F41614snow_003.jpg&hash=8aa3fc6b0568111197c9a55efbe3dd36085ee080) (http://postimg.cc/image/i3k8hsdrh/)
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I got my fingers crossed that these arent mean bees...id say 80% of the 30 or so of our club members got stung while installing packages yesterday. ..
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well.. I'd probably be a bit grouchy if someone put me in a box, tossed me around and drove me a thousand miles, then expected me to build a new house... not to mention being cold...
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hey ray and don, i wouldn't be concerned about the bees being mean or snarky hiving them in our weather, or in the spring of the year, and what scott said.....
anyways, i think you will find they will be just fine later on when they settle in, settle down and the weather warms up. congrats guys!!!
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Yes I was thinking it was just the weather too...they went from 100 F weather in California then 40 F in Michigan 2 days later...
if you put me in a huge box with millions of people for 2 days and the temp went from 100 to 40 id be pretty pissed off too! I just installed packages every year for 3-4 years now and never got stung and almost everyone got stung this year...
Funny thing is our Secretary has done 2 months of New Beekeeping presentations and has said I dont know anyone who has gotten stung installing packages and now she's gonna have to change her story lol!
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I had a student install a package on bees from Mann Lake on April 5th. The night time temperatures ranged from mid 20s to high 30s and daytime temperatures in the 40s. The package was placed in a 10 frame deep with entrance reducer and fed 1:1 syrup over the inner cover hole.
Here is a video of the inspection he did 21 days after the installation.
http://youtu.be/FdQ7KmxhGRA
I will continue to advise my students to get packages early. I don't see anyone installing packages now having a chance to catch up to this hive.
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Thanks Robo!
That certainly proves that it is possible to hive bees when it is cold out.
So he used a mason jar.. The bees took the syrup OK despite it being cold?
Mine dont seem to want to touch the syrup when it is that cold out. 30's at night 50 and sunny during the day they just didnt take much. Looking for the secret.. Just make sure its there if they need it?
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So he used a mason jar.. The bees took the syrup OK despite it being cold?
Yes, he used an inverted mason jar over the inner cover hole. I do not know if he swapped out with warm syrup daily or not, but I'll check with him.
Mine dont seem to want to touch the syrup when it is that cold out. 30's at night 50 and sunny during the day they just didnt take much. Looking for the secret.. Just make sure its there if they need it?
Are you talking packages or established hives? Packages are an entirely different beast than established colonies. They have a similar instinct (desperation) as swarms. Their continual existence depends on getting comb built and the queen laying ASAP. Established hives tend to not take syrup unless they get into a desperate situation. They are more than content to subsist off of stores if the weather is not cooperative.
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Well that makes complete sense, and yes I was talking about established colonies. Thanks for the reply, it was quite helpful.
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Just got word from him that he did swap out the syrup "frequently". I'm not exactly sure what that means, but I usually recommend keeping two jars, one on the hive and one in the house (room temperature) and swapping them out daily.
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The bees are doing a good job in building up. Did he start with 2 or 3 lb package? From the looks I would gess a 3 lb. That hive would make it as a polination unit. Hope he is ready for the next super to go on as all that brood that is capped will be emerging over the next 12 days so in weeks he will have close to 18 frames of bees.
Sent from my LG-P500h using Tapatalk 2
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It was a 3lb package. Yes, next super is going on.