Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: Jen on March 28, 2014, 03:53:53 pm
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;D ;DI've always walked into my swarms that were already boiling out of the hive and in the air. Is this what a potential swarm looks like in the beginning? lots of bees on the front of the hive?
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UPDATE: One Hour Later ~ Swarming AGAIN! More Prepared this time :D Swarm Gods are testing all of my learning over the winter :D
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Okay! They've landed, on the ground this time ;D I hope I did the right thing by putting a medium with frames, pulled wax and a bit it HBH on each side of the frames. They are still wrestless, so leaving them alone for a bit.
Should I just cut the bees out of the grasses and bushes there? or should I wait to see if they go into the medium?
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Seriously?
Put the box you have hived them in on the ground, put a piece of plywood or washcloth etc so they can walk into the hive. As long as the queen is in there they will walk in.
This from the new or old hive?
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This is a cast off from the mother hive. The bees seem to have congregated on the bush about 1 foot up from the medium ~
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ok... you left only ONE extra cell in that hive right???
if you can find that Virgin queen you can pinch her and recombine the bees, unless you want to try to make a go of this one too?
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Left two cells.
I'm not sure yet on what i want to do. Our friend, may want to work with another hive, he has only one right now.
Do I still put the plywood/towel between the cluster and the medium? Will they walk into it completely empty?
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take a couple of frames and tuck them under the swarm and scoop, brush, shake, smoke the bees onto the frames then put them in the hive with as many bees on them as possible. Then repeat the process until most the bees are in the hive and the bees are fanning to attract the bees into the new colony.
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Wow, glad you have been able tom capture them both.
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It is a small cast swarm. this queen will be a virgin and will need to be mated as well as the queen in the hive that swarmed. Don't be giving anything away until you are sure that both are laying queens. then you make a decision on what to do if you have an extra queen. things can happen during the mating process so think of this extra queen is insurance.
Although they don't know it (the bees) they really can't afford to loose these bees from their colony with out effecting it viability in producing a honey crop.
I am thinking 2 queen system, can guild you through it.
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Crazy Californian Bees, and to think there are those that want to import them up here!
Seriously, you got great advice from a couple of sources! :yes:
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No Kidding Hu Perry! Geez! This girl has had some serious excercise this last week. But I sure have learned a lot, and it was a true test of my reading this winter along with some great booster advice when the swarms came about... way earlier than I had expected.
I most of the bees down off of the bank, I had to get with it cause it's been raining all day.
I'm hitting the recliner for a bit, I'll check back after while.
Thanks to everyone for here as soon as you could.
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Apis- ""It is a small cast swarm. this queen will be a virgin and will need to be mated as well as the queen in the hive that swarmed. Don't be giving anything away until you are sure that both are laying queens. then you make a decision on what to do if you have an extra queen. things can happen during the mating process so think of this extra queen is insurance.
Although they don't know it (the bees) they really can't afford to loose these bees from their colony with out effecting it viability in producing a honey crop.
I am thinking 2 queen system, can guild you through it.""
I'm glad to be reminded that an extra queen is a good thing.
This swarm is not exactly small, it's smaller than the original swarm last week, maybe a little smaller than a basket ball. Yes I agree that the mother hive now has less than half of her bees now... I think.
I don't know how to determine how many bees make, say, 10,000 bees, would that be the size of a basketball? or......?
What do you mean by a two queen system?
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I hope I respond before anyone else, because I want to see if I get it right.
A two queen system would consist of two deeps placed one on top of the other with a queen excluder separating them. Then have one queen in the bottom, and one in top. The worker bees can come and go and everybody is fat and happy.
Did I get it right?
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Hey tbone- if this is the case, I'm trying to imagine the order of the hives. I can visualize a queen on the bottom, bees, excluder. A queen on the top, bees.
K, then, the deep on the top would need an entrance? or all the bees would use the entrance on the bottom?
What if the deep on the top decides they want to grab the queen a swarm.... how will they get the queen on the top out?
scratching head ;) 8)
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I better first of all say that I don't want to get in too deep with this because I could be in for, and would deserve a tongue lashing from others giving somewhat incorrect info, but, if they don't have an entrance up top, then they can't swarm. But all that to say, I don't think I'm prepared to do something like that because management for a hive like that would be somewhat tricky for me.
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Thanks Tbone- Mee Neither! We'll see what the others say. Love your dandelion pic, so fresh and inspiring ;) 8)
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I don't know much about two queen systems. As I've said before I'm a little quick to combine when I think something is wrong.
Last year I had a hive swarm. The only hive I've ever had swarm. I took a couple cells and started a nuc leaving a couple cells in the original hive. The nuc queen got mated and started laying. The parent hive didn't.
I gave them a frame of brood but they didn't build any cells. I combined them with the hive next to them.
This now consisted of three deeps. Bottom with queen and brood. Middle packed solid with honey. Top was the swarm hive.
The swarm hives second deep which was also full of honey I set on another hive.
Iddiee informed me I didn't wait quite long enough. Sure enough a week or so later I checked and the top was full of eggs with the queen on the frame. Queen in the bottom box also. No queen excluder just a deep full of honey.
I separated it and now call it my Idiee hive.
I could be mistaken but I think a two queen system has the queens separated but sharing a storage space.
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Thanks Woody- I just don't know if I'm advanced in my learning enough to try a system like this.
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I've thought about trying it but for some reason it doesn't really appeal to me. Since you need lots of bees to make surplus honey what I have done is when I pull the old queen and the hive raises a new one. I'll steal brood from the old one and give it to the new one. Their not prone to swarm with a new queen and I can hold the old queen to a single deep all summer.
I've had no trouble overwintering in a single deep here.
The old queen is like a swarm queen. She's in build up mode and I'll have to rob brood from her pretty regular or she will out grow her hive.
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Two queen systems I have helped manage had supers between the brood boxes.. OR, had the brood boxes set side by side, with ten frame supers set in the middle of them, obviously separated with an excluder. The pyramid style two queen system just had Nuc lids on the exposed top of the brood chambers. An upper entrance allowed the bees to get into the supers from the top, as well as coming up through the brood boxes.
The problem we encountered was that the bees tended to choose one queen over the other and we never could get them equalized. This happened in both style systems.. New queens helped a little, but usually by the next spring they were starting to become unbalanced again. One queen out laying the other? Stronger Pheromone? I don't know. It was a limited trial, and I didn't get to fuss with it nearly enough. They were not my bees... I will say, that they DID produce quite a lot of honey. When I get where I want to be I hope to try this myself in a situation I can play with it a little more.
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No hurry, need to get queens mated first and laying good. 2 queening suppresses the swarming urge because there is twice the queen pheromone in the hive. The system draws the bees into the honey supers through the queen excluders. If a queen fails, the hive still has one producing queen. One technique is to get the new second queen working in the top queen brood chamber and in the fall combine both queen chambers and let the new queen take the colony into winter... Requeening in the spring and leaving the old queen in the hive till late summer.
I will start a thread on 2 queen systems I just gave a presentation on splitting and 2 queen systems at our local beekeepers meeting 2 week ago so I have it partiality done.
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That would be great Apis!
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Apis- interesting! It has been suggested to me more than once that I have a swarm happy bunch of bees. I just may need to read up on how to tame my wonderlust girls :)
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I have thought that too but they have been kept in a manner that almost any colony would swarm. So I don"t know, I would still give them a chance.
The first year they were kept in a too confined hive and any queen would have swarmed.
The second year they started in the confined hive and then got switched but had to draw out new frames so still dealing with a restricted brood nest.
This year someone was stimulant feeding early in combination with trying to pull the pieced together frames before brood was laid in the frames. 2 things that help the bees to draw comb a good honey flow and warm temperatures. by replacing those frames early when the bees were not readily able to draw the new comb the brood nest was restricted creating congestion.
In all cases I can understand what could have attributed to the bees deciding to swarm.
But as far as I see it every thing is turning out very well for you this year. You have your early split. Natural Mite control. Back up Queen. and all early in the year so they will have time to build up and produce a crop. Not many of us can produce queens this early in the year. just keep a watch for swarm cells though.
I would caution anyone about over stimulating your bees If you do not have a plan and need for the extra bees.
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Hi Apis :) ""Not many of us can produce queens this early in the year. just keep a watch for swarm cells though.""
This coming Thursday it will be two weeks and I can get into the hives and see if there are any eggs. I'll check for swarm cells too of course.
Now, this is where the postings got controversial when the first swarm happened on March 16. The day before the swarm I did an inspection and noted 6 capped queen cells. I put the hive back together and got on the forum to study what to do. The next day the hive swarmed. Then 2-3 members advised to go into the hive and nab all but 1 or 2 queen cells to avoid cast swarms. Made sense, so I did. Then the controversy started about never removing the qcells as opposed to thinning the qcells. Some cells were on the face of the frame, some were on the bottom of the frame.
Which ones are the swarm cells?
And when I go into the hives on Thurs April 3rd and I find queen cells and swarm cells, what should I do?
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And on Thursday, you should have another hive ready, because the bees are not reading the rule book. :P :D
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Hi Iddee! :D You are Soo Right! I have some rascally wonderlust girls here!
Thankfully... just the day before this last swarm we came home from a small bee store up the road with bottom boards and lids to go with the 6 mediums that hubby built. At least I was more ready for this one. ;D
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And on Thursday, you should have another hive ready, because the bees are not reading the rule book. :P :D
LOL /Signed...
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This coming Thursday it will be two weeks and I can get into the hives and see if there are any eggs. I'll check for swarm cells too of course.
Now, this is where the postings got controversial when the first swarm happened on March 16. The day before the swarm I did an inspection and noted 6 capped queen cells. I put the hive back together and got on the forum to study what to do. The next day the hive swarmed. Then 2-3 members advised to go into the hive and nab all but 1 or 2 queen cells to avoid cast swarms. Made sense, so I did. Then the controversy started about never removing the qcells as opposed to thinning the qcells. Some cells were on the face of the frame, some were on the bottom of the frame.
Which ones are the swarm cells?
And when I go into the hives on Thurs April 3rd and I find queen cells and swarm cells, what should I do?
The thing about swarm queen cells is that they are capped and remain that way for 6 days. The queen slows down laying in preparation to swarm shortly after the queen cells are caped if the bees keep her from tearing them down. The hive swarms just before the virgin emerges (although weather can speed or delay swarming). Because when you culled some of the cells you may of destroyed the oldest cells and left younger cells in the hive so the timing may be off a little could be 5 days latter so we wont panic if you don't see eggs on Thursday. Thursday could be the egg seeing day for the cast swarm you hived on Friday, the parent hive the queen cell didn't emerge until last Thursday or Friday so I think it may take a week longer.
I cull the shorter ones first. Then keep the ones that look the oldest, the longer the queen is in the cell the darker they appear. With swarm cells it isn't a mater of where the cells are on the frame but how many and what caused the response or the bees to draw out queen cells.
There are 3 methods the bees draw queen cells. The bees feed a larva in a worker cell and float the larva out and build a queen cell down on the surface of the comb. have the queen lay in previously made queen cups. Draw cells from eggs laid along the bottom edge of the combs. The first is found more when the bees need to draw emergency cells. The second 2 are more likely a sign of swarming.
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Thanks Apis, that was very interesting :)
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This is all very interesting. Went through my hives yesterday. Hive 2's queen is laying a pretty pattern in the bottom box and the top box has 9 frames partly drawn out being filled with honey, NO idea what nectar they are finding except trees.
Hive 4's queen is laying in the top box, workers and a frame or 2 of drones and there are uncapped queen cups on the bottom of 2 frames, no egg in them. The bottom box is crammed but dusk was approaching and this is a fairly hot hive so I had to get out before I hurt a bee going into the crammed bottom box. They are a robbing hive as well. I was concerned that they might be overcrowded but at least 5 empty frames in the top box, the drawn out are being drawn as honeycomb, pretty white wax, and laid in.
I suspect she is planning a swarm and soon...
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some of that unaccounted for early nectar that is being found in the hive could be honey being robbed out of dead out colonies, Managed and\or feral.
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Okay Iddee, my two week vacation is up Thursday. Mother hive has swarmed twice. I don't want anymore swarms. I don't want a 4th hive, I may get one anyway, but that's not my goal. If I go into my hives and seer eggs ~ and I see queen cells what should I do?
I know that you and riv don't eliminate queen cells... ;) 8)
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But we do remove them. We just make nucs. If you don't want nucs, I guess you have to destroy them. Just be sure you have a queen to go back in there if you destroy one too many. Destroying queen cells is the best way I know to end up queenless.
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I guess you couldn't mail the queens to me? Cuz my local supplier had a fire ant attack on his mating nucs