Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => Beekeeping 101 => Topic started by: Richie_BeeIII on March 28, 2014, 05:43:23 pm
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Hey Everybody!
I am starting my first colonies this year and have done a ton of reading, youtubing and even attended a course at Temple to prepare for this. I feel 1000% prepared to install my package bees and roll with this. I have ONE question though..... Everywhere you read or watch it says to spray the bees with sugar water before you install the package. In speaking with the beemaster that conducted the course he said I have a 100% chance of some hitchhiking Varroa mites being in my package. Sooooo would it be a bad thing (and why) to just dust the crap out of them with powdered sugar instead of hosing them down with sugar water? It seems to be a very effective method (again from reading and youtube) of mite removal but not something you want to overdue once the comb is drawn and brood has started. So what better time to do it than at the very beginning? I know this won't get 100% of the little beasties but i don't want to start this show with an infestation. They (the bees) won't leave because the queen is there (correct?) and they can still use the sugar (yes, no, maybe?). They may be a little more mobile (flying around and such) which would increase the chance of a sting or two I guess but if it works it is well worth it.
Thoughts? (if this is a repeat post i apologize)
Thanks!!
Rich
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i would hive the package first, (without the powdered sugar) just a light spray. let them settle in, and sometime after they have settled in, complete your powdered sugar dust. the initial spraying is to keep them from flying, and busy licking each other, sort of helps to get them hived successfully, if you will.
btw greetings and welcome to the forum!!!
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Hey Rich and Welcome to Worldwide Beekeeping! :welcome:
The sugar syrup spray serves 2 purposes, the first being it prevents them from sudden flight and second, a bit of food. If your bees have few mites, that can (and will have to be) addressed later. If you are bringing these hives into an area with mites they will have them shortly anyways.
Keep it simple and don't get fancy to start your adventure. You can choose to do follow up with a dusting after they have been hived for a while.
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Welcome Richie to the forum, enjoy your stay and you have gotten good advise on what to do.
Ken
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Welcome to bees, beekeeping and this forum. The thing with mites is keeping them under control. No treatment is 100% effective the only way to kill all the mites is to kill all the bees. Due to the break in brood that is occurring with hiving a package of bees, this will provide an effective natural treatment to disrupt the breeding cycle of the mites. In the first year when starting a new colony mite and swarm control is provided for the new beekeeper because of how the colony is established, it's size, and on natures way of allowing the bees to build up. It is the 2nd year that provides the challenges of mites and swarms.
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Welcome and enjoy your stay! :)
If you do decide to "powder" your bees, don't use store-bought powered sugar. It has corn starch (or something like that) in it that will constipate your bees. Take regular sugar and put it in a food processor and jog it until it's powdered.
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Yep what Slowmodem said, make your own powdered sugar.
Ditto on Apis advise, with a package mites are a second year problem, Just enjoy your first year.
Welcome to the forum. Jim
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Thanks for your replies! I have this posted on a couple of other forums and it seems the "ask two beekeepers a question and you will get ten answers" is true!
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Thanks for your replies! I have this posted on a couple of other forums and it seems the "ask two beekeepers a question and you will get ten answers" is true!
Yeah, but we're always right! ;) :D
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Where you are located will effect how irrelevance the posted advice is to you. If you were in Florida, Texas, or California. My post would and advice would have been different. although I live in B.C. Canada our time of the year for spring build up and the honey flow times are similar In the fall you will have a better fall flow than what I get but you will receive freezing temperatures and will suffer a longer and harder winter with more snow and wind than what I will receive. Pay attention to where the poster is from and Google to see if his conditions are anything like what your weather is like.
Don't follow my advice for installing a package. I never sprayed a bee in a package in my life except water during the hot daytime while transporting them. We would wait till after 4 o'clock in the afternoon when the bees are returning to the hives. Package bees are less likely to fly and will settle into the hive. Pull the 4 frames out of the center, bang the package to dislodge the bees, pull the syrup can, pull the queen check that she is alive and put her in my pocket. Shake the bees in to the space where the 4 frames were removed, thump the package on the bottom again then on one end and upside down and hit the other end with your fist and almost all the bees will be out of the package and into the bottom of the hive slide the frames in from the sides and place the frames removed back in the hive. then we would direct release the queen. buy removing the cork and stand the queen cage with the opening down and watch the queen walk down in between the frames. Install the inner cover and cover. We could direct release the queens because we knew that the queen had been in the package long enough so the bees had already accepted the sent. Unless you know for sure that the queen has been in the package with the bees for at least 3 days do not direct release her.
Is it bad advice that I presented? It depends on where you are located and how far the bees had to journey and for how long.
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If you were in Florida, Texas, or California. My post would and advice would have been different.
That's why it is sometimes difficult to know what to do in a given situation. I really appreciate all the knowledge of the experienced beeks on here, but I wish there were some more southern located members. It is difficult for me to not do some things advisable from those of you that have been doing this for years in northern locations. As always, it is a learning process and as long as I'm learning, I think the bees will benefit. I just need to figure out how to retain the learning. :) And by the way, I do appreciate the other southerners on here as well.
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Of course the easiest method to hive a package is to set an empty box on top of the brood box, open the package and put it on top of the frames, inside the empty box, then put the top on the empty box. Come back in a couple of hours and the bees will be out of the package and into the frames. Remove the empty box and put the top on the hive. Easy peasy. ;)
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Ask two beekeepers the same question and at times you will get 7 different answers... and depending on the situation, NONE of them may be a wrong answer....
I have installed bees almost exactly as Apis posted. I have let them enter the hive on their own as Slow said.. both methods worked splendidly..
The only thing I can add, is that "IF" you are installing on NEW foundation.. Leave the queen in the cage, let the bees release her. It gives them a bit of time to MAKE this hive their home, start a bit of drawn comb etc.. it has been my experience that they are less likely to decide they don't like the box you have provided if given three or four days to acclimate..
Being able to add a frame or three of drawn comb.. OR a frame of brood makes a huge difference in how happy they are with their new home... Just my .02
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Welcome to the forum! I personally didn't have a good experience the first time I used powdered sugar. As I understand it, powdered sugar contains starches/binders. I found a ton of dead bees the next day. If you grind your own sugar, that is better. But, what a pain. I wouldn't worry about the mites right off the bat. Just enjoy your first day of installing them. And finally, I may not be the best reference. I like to let my bees be.
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And finally, I may not be the best reference.
Dave's ok. You just have to take what he says with a grain of salt sugar.
;D :laugh: ;) 8)
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Maybe I misunderstood Slow's method, but it sounds like he is giving the bees half an inner lid on which to congregate. Bees may go up onto frames, but in my experience they prefer free space to cluster and hang comb it it's at the top. I could never get them to go down onto frames even when brood and food were in the frames.
An alternative is with a 10 frame deep, remove 5 frames and suspend the queen cage from the sixth. Set the package in the open space and leave the top hole open. Go back the next day and remove the package cage and replace the 5 frames.
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Maybe I misunderstood Slow's method, but it sounds like he is giving the bees half an inner lid on which to congregate.
Let me try it again. ;)
get a hive bottom and hive body with frames on top of that. put an empty deep on that. open the package and place inside the empty deep on top the frames. put the telescoping top on the hive. Come back in a couple of hours and take the package out (it will be practically empty). Take the empty deep off. Put inner cover and telescoping top on hive (and a feeder if desired). Lean the empty package and empty box against the hive at the entrance for stragglers to go in.
Here's a picture of the empty deep next to the entrance afterwards. (there is also a top feeder on the hive)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi585.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss298%2FSlowmodem_photo%2FBees%2FPackage%2520Install%2520042213%2Fphotobucket-9102-1366661524504.jpg&hash=18616d17ddbfe098fb7dc14ecf1fcd0ae07e14f7)
This is probably not the preferred method of installing packages, but it works, and is ok if you have other things to get done.
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OK. The couple hours is the main thing I missed. I would still think in most cases, you would have to shake the cluster off the telescoping lid.
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OK. The couple hours is the main thing I missed. I would still think in most cases, you would have to shake the cluster off the telescoping lid.
Actually, most of them went down into the frames. It's just a lazy way to do things. ;)
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If it works, it works. More power to you.
I do the same thing with one box and five frames.
Same thing, just different road to get there.
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I have done it as slow mentions.. supposedly its less stressful on the bees. No banging the package around. thumping it on the ground, then smacking it to shake the bees out etc...
To be honest.. I didn't notice any difference in dead bees, stressed bees etc.. between the thump and dump and setting the box upside down on the top bars. But, since both seem to work I can't argue one over the other.
I will be doing an installation vid for the website next month.. I only ordered two packages this year, but two is all I need to vid both methods. I'll post the links when I have them done. I'll also try to keep track of any differences I notice.
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i follow the practice of hiving packages similiar to what apis does. i spray a little water when i get them, and if it's hot i will again, or as apis said during transportation. i wait until later in the day. pull 4 frames from the center, pull the syrup can. i put the queen in her cage aside or on top the frames, shake them in. leave the box next to the hive with any bees who quite don't want to leave for a little bit, they do shortly. replace the frames, and set the queen cage in. i slow release all my queens, but that is because i keep russian bees now. i have a time or two added a little hbh, or sugar to the water spray. like apis said later in the day, minimizes flying and also drifting.
powdered sugar. it has been mentioned not to use 'store bought' powdered sugar to dust the bees with for natural mite 'control'. not to open a can of worms here, but the small amount of the corn starch in the powdered sugar that one would dust their bees with is not enough to hurt them. feeding them powdered sugar yes, dusting them with it no. i guess i would ask how much is being dusted on them? you don't need more than a cup per brood box or even much less. you don't need to saturate them. just my humble opinion. :)
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Mrs River;
I know several long time beekeepers that do use store bought powdered sugar to dust with, and in fact will make queen candy with Karo and store bought powdered sugar. I have asked about the practice, and was answered much in the way you just said.
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powdered sugar. not to open a can of worms here, but the small amount of the corn starch in the powdered sugar that one would dust their bees with is not enough to hurt them.
She just did!!!
We use to dust with icing sugar mixed with Tetracycline when you wanted to get them medicated but they didn't require syrup.
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my advice would be two fold...
1) when you get the package spray a bit of water on the screen wire... if anything they will be thirsty from the long trip. when you pull the can in the package check to see how much syrup is still left in the can and if it is empty think about feeding the new hive often in small proportions. when you finally install the package use water and not sugar water < this will make the bees a bit heavy and reduce their tendency to fly and water will not attract or generate other problems (like ants or possible robbing).
2) at some point you will need to get to some varroa treatment that works for you and also works for the bees. There are any number of options but of all of these I suspect (and I don't think any real beekeeping authority would disagree with me here) that sugar powdered dusting is either largely or totally ineffective. <CONFESSION HERE I say this even though I have not treated a single hive in perhaps 7 or 8 years.... but then again I have what some might classify as large numbers of hives and I don't miss one or two when they fall by the way side due to varroa and THIS is all a part of my own NON PLAN. This however doesn't mean I have not researched various option and know which one work at least to some degree and of course the associated question of why they work and when they work the best.