Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => Raising Queens => Topic started by: blueblood on April 09, 2014, 09:46:30 pm
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During my first full inspections of 2014 on April 1st I found one of my single deep overwintered hives to be void of any sign of a queen. However, there was a four good frames more than 2/3 full of bees. I checked it again on the 5th and my observation was the same. I placed a small piece of comb with eggs in the middle of one of the frames. I checked on the hive today, the 9th. They hadn't touched the comb with eggs I placed in there on the 5th. I saw several frames with eggs, some larvae and what appeared to be a few queen cups. I looked very thoroughly for a queen but with no avail. One concerning observation caught my eye. A few cells appeared to have two eggs. Confusing though, because they were in the center and not on the wall.
So, here is where the real discussion begins. It could be the work of a laying worker, a new and inexperienced small queen as a result of a late summer swarm or a small queen I can't find that is laying twice because there are not enough bees to keep the eggs warm. Can she tell if an egg is not viable and then lays another in the cell with it?
And looking to the future for a remedy, I am liking what I read from an article found in the American Bee Journal entitled, "Foolproof Requeening," by Buddy Marterre, MD. Here is a link that shows the important excerpt: http://marinbees.com/wp/laying-worker
I am leaning toward his idea of combining and then splitting the hive when all is queen right. This way, I am not wasting bees that I would shake into the yard that won't make it back. Here are some pics of this hive from the 5th and today. I am thinking one or two of the cells with a large larvae with pronounced cell edges may be a drone cell on it's way to being capped? I am interested in what you bee masters may have to say about what you observed.
The 5th of April
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Today, the 9th of April
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Post back in one week and tell us how nice the laying pattern is.
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Hi Iddee~ Are you suggesting I wait a week before combining them?
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I'm suggesting the hive is queenrite and the beekeeper is a worry wart. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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:laugh: I concede, worry wart I may be. I will wait and see what happens. I went back and looked at the photos closer and saw what appeared to be the beginning of a queen cell middle left of frame.
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LOL!!! I started to type, but didnt have the confidence to post it. Iddee did it for me ;D
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LOL!!! I started to type, but didnt have the confidence to post it. Iddee did it for me ;D
I am going to start calling him Grandpa Iddee. It's tough love, has been like that since I met him on here.
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Reminds me a lot of both my grandfather and my mentor... take their advice.. or dont and pay the price, just don't go crying to them if you ignored the advice.. if you do they will laugh at you.
After getting laughed at a time or two you usually learn to listen.
Afterthought here... Listening to their advice can also get you into trouble.. so ignore any advice NOT about the subject at hand!!!!!
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EXACTLY what Iddee said.
this is the kind of hive that might profit from doing a paper combine with an excluder between simply to pump up the worker population in the weak half <once the population in the two parts of the stack are somewhat equalized you can then set them apart or choose the best queen and unite.
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I gonna be the odd man out. I blew up pic no# 3 and I see eggs on cell walls and a couple with more than a single egg. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that this could be laying workers. I'll be happy if I'm wrong. ;D
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It is quite common for a new queen, or queen starting to lay in a new year, to lay more than one egg in a cell or to not lay them perfectly centered. Two eggs in a cell I would not have immediate concern, give her some time to settle in. Laying workers will often have 5 or more eggs in multiple cells and most of them on the walls, that is when I take immediate action.
The best way I have found to deal with laying workers is by using a queen introduction frame, which keeps the new queen isolated from the workers for 2 weeks. This gives enough time for her pheromones to either shut down the laying workers (often more than one) or for the bees to become loyal to her and dispose of the laying workers.
I had started sharing one around at Beemaster for folks with laying worker issues and it worked really well.
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,38956.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,38956.0.html)
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,23161.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,23161.0.html)
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,17867.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,17867.0.html)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.postimg.cc%2F5ckm96qmn%2Fqueencage2.jpg&hash=18931a023e7e963397046d037fa4bdcd715877cd) (http://postimg.cc/image/yrqai6v63/)
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this is the kind of hive that might profit from doing a paper combine with an excluder between simply to pump up the worker population in the weak half <once the population in the two parts of the stack are somewhat equalized you can then set them apart or choose the best queen and unite.
Thanks Tec, I like that idea. It is an additional step from the author's suggestion in the american bee journal excerpt I linked. It would be easier to split back up with your suggestion.
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It is quite common for a new queen, or queen starting to lay in a new year, to lay more than one egg in a cell or to not lay them perfectly centered. Two eggs in a cell I would not have immediate concern, give her some time to settle in. Laying workers will often have 5 or more eggs in multiple cells and most of them on the walls, that is when I take immediate action.
The best way I have found to deal with laying workers is by using a queen introduction frame, which keeps the new queen isolated from the workers for 2 weeks. This gives enough time for her pheromones to either shut down the laying workers (often more than one) or for the bees to become loyal to her and dispose of the laying workers.
Ah, hmmm. Thanks for the info rich links. I did not know those queen intro frames existed. I learn something new every day. As for multiple eggs in the cells, I Googled photos of laying worker cells and 4, 5 or so eggs was what I was seeing in the results. And, I have read about new queens suffering a learning curve for laying.
This is why I love a properly oiled forum like this one. Great help at thy fingertips. It would have taken me years of experience or many books to get a clue on these issues.
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Question, is that a single layer of #8 hardware cloth on each side of the frame? Would laying workers be able to "get at" the queen if she was running around in there? I really like this idea.
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I gonna be the odd man out. I blew up pic no# 3 and I see eggs on cell walls and a couple with more than a single egg. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that this could be laying workers. I'll be happy if I'm wrong. ;D
Hiya Perry, I forgot to reply to your post from earlier. You may be right. I hope it's just a new queen. Problem is, I can't find her. And, I have searched hard. She just may be a little and slicker than slick queenie.
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ROBO makes those queen introduction cages huh?
WELL!!! I guess its TIME!!
Perry! You bring the duct tape. I'll bring the torture implements.. I will steel them from my wife.. I will also bring my minion to video so no information is overlooked or lost.. We can edit out the parts where he is laughing so hard he is crying, for those weak of heart.
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I got a couple of those queen introduction frames from Brushy Mountain. I haven't had the occasion to use one yet. My question is that if a queen is in there for 2 weeks, how do you feed her or will she live that long without food and water?
http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Requeening-Frame/productinfo/274/
http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/downloads/274_RequeeningFrame.pdf
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Question, is that a single layer of #8 hardware cloth on each side of the frame? Would laying workers be able to "get at" the queen if she was running around in there? I really like this idea.
First of all, I don't think a laying workers would go after the queen. When you add a 2nd queen to a hive, it is usually the works that ball and kill her. But that aside, it is no different than when you place a queen in a queen cage to introduce her to a colony. This just gives here a bigger area to move around in and spread her pheromones.
My question is that if a queen is in there for 2 weeks, how do you feed her or will she live that long without food and water?
The bees will feed her through the screen.
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Question, is that a single layer of #8 hardware cloth on each side of the frame? Would laying workers be able to "get at" the queen if she was running around in there? I really like this idea.
First of all, I don't think a laying workers would go after the queen. When you add a 2nd queen to a hive, it is usually the works that ball and kill her. But that aside, it is no different than when you place a queen in a queen cage to introduce her to a colony. This just gives here a bigger area to move around in and spread her pheromones.
My question is that if a queen is in there for 2 weeks, how do you feed her or will she live that long without food and water?
The bees will feed her through the screen.
OK, I'm confused. If the queen was loose, they'd ball and kill her, but if she's screened in a cage they'll feed her?
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"OK, I'm confused. If the queen was loose, they'd ball and kill her, but if she's screened in a cage they'll feed her?"
In a 2 queen scenario. I thought maybe laying workers would go after her but I guess not. Good to know, I learn something every time I come here.
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I watched a vid of the feeding response, and it is automatic.. if the queen sticks her tongue through the wire the nurse bees WILL feed her.
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Go visit a package supplier, they have rooms with 100s or 1000s of caged queens hanging in their "queen room" waiting to be installed in packages. These rooms are filled with loose bees that care for all caged queens.
Buy a large quantity of queens and they will arrive individually caged in a battery box with nurse bees that have full roaming of the battery box to care for the queens.
A lot of package suppliers ship queens caged without attendants. The package bees will care for the queen, but not the attendants, that is why you often find dead attendants if they are included.
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I'm suggesting the hive is queenrite and the beekeeper is a worry wart. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Okay, it's been a week. Here is what I found. Still no pollen or brood. I am now seeing what appears to be drone cells. I did however, find a very different bee that sure looks and moves like a queen but I did see at least one more that had the same characteristics. Two laying workers? Or, just a virgin queen? The thorax seems darker and more pronounced compared to the other bees. The abdomen is different as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbbHfCE7DL0&feature=youtu.be
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This small colony still does not have any capped brood. All of my other colonies have more than 10 frames of capped brood. So, clearly, this one is falling behind. I thought it was a laying worker because all capped cells were all looking like drone. However, now those cells are extending and looking like peanuts. I took a video last week of piping from this hive. On more than one occasion, I have seen what I thought was a small queen. Is is possible for a virgin queen late last fall surviving the winter? Is it poor mating and she never really took off as a good queen and they are making queen cells out of everything she lays? I am confused on this colony. I did place 2-3 queen cells in this hive a few days ago. One cell is still closed, one is ripped open exposing the pupae. Took 8 pics of one of 3 or similar frames in this hive. Pay close attention to pic #8 and tell me if you spot a queen. Because, I think I did. Would love some input on what you think or see?
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I would say a late fall supercedure is definitely a possibility. I had a similar situation this spring. The hive had nothing but bullet drone brood scattered across the frame. I did find a queen that seemed healthy and normal looking. But I also found an old open queen cell on the bottom of the frame. If you are seeing single eggs in most cells, I would bet that is what happened. If you are seeing 5+ eggs in cells then it would be a laying worker.
Just because she is a drone layer does not mean she will be a scrawny underdeveloped queen (but doesn't rule out that she is either :o )
I took a quick look at the pictures and didn't see an obvious queen. But then again I can never find Waldo either.
Since you gave them some queen cells, I guess at this point you can only wait and see.
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Thanks Robo, what do you think about the bee I put an arrow on the last pic, #8? Looks real close to a queen to me. But, it's tough.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs21.postimg.cc%2F938sosoqb%2Fqueen.jpg&hash=a7acbde1f2e81dd66cb56f4dd8394c11fa9dac73) (http://postimg.cc/image/938sosoqb/)
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I don't think so. I think the shiny abdomen makes her stand out, but if you look through the picture there are other bees that look the same. Another tell tale sign is too much hair on the thorax.
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oops sorry blue, you asked me to look at this last night while we were in the chat box. was watching the hockey game.... :D i did look at it afterwards, and my eyes were drawn to the bee you diagrammed with the arrow.
like robo, i don't believe it's a queen #1, because of the thorax, and the legs, and as robo also said, other bees look the same if you look carefully.
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Thanks for looking at it robo and river. I also noted similar bees. But, gosh, boy is it close. I don't have problems picking out my big ole girls but the smaller ones are tough.
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yeah blue, your welcome. i love these kinds of pic challenges. i looked at that late last night, downloaded your picture and enlarged it. when i first looked at it, my eyes were first drawn to that bee. when i looked at her up close, it was the thorax and the leg structure. not sure how to explain this, robo said it best i guess, the hair on the thorax....queens have more of a shiny thorax to them, like robo said, no hair, and also like i said the legs.
it is hard picking them out, but you know what, you're doing great, and looking forward to your updates on this colony and what you find..... ;)
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After two days of looking and about six cups of coffee.. this is the closest I could come up with that MIGHT be a queen.. I haven't been ignoring the thread, just didnt have anything to add Robo and Mrs River didnt.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs29.postimg.cc%2Fcq9qzzxc3%2FDSCF0809.jpg&hash=4343c0ef8cdb72dda81874a5ede7dffd24b62e45) (http://postimg.cc/image/cq9qzzxc3/)
Zoom it in for best look at the bee, she is mostly covered up.
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OK Dave I will get flack for saying this but... A month ago when this hive was not responding to the weather and start of the spring season like the other hives, it should have been combined where the bees could have assessed a weaker colony. By now these bees could have helped boost a week colony by 6 frames of brood and helped increase a colony by 8 frames of bees. But with all the time waiting to see if this queen, if there is a queen will start to lay and catch up. What you have now is a hive with very old bees that are going to be dieing off over the next 30 days that it will take them to get a queen raised, mated and laying. Them it is going to take another 3 weeks for her brood to start to emerge. So with out placing brood into this hive it will be close to 7 week before this hive will be able to produce its own brood.
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Your probably right Keith. I will try to inspect this one today and see if anything has changed and then decided what to do then. I will update later.
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Blue, i looked at picture #8 and was drawn to the bee that you had an arrow on in another picture. It was the pointed tail that got my attention. Jack