Worldwide Beekeeping

Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: Jen on April 14, 2014, 12:25:25 am

Title: Need help identifying cells
Post by: Jen on April 14, 2014, 12:25:25 am
I was in my 'first swarm hive' today, it swarmed one month ago. it's been a couple of weeks since last inspection. I am still reading "There Are Queen Cells In My Hive-What Should I Do?" This is a monumental amount of reading for me to understand in one sitting, or two.. three. So, I'm posting pics of what I need to identify.

First off, I saw the queen and there is everything going on in the hive that needs to be going on. It looks real good. Kind of spotty brood but I'm not worried about that right now. Spotted lots of larvae, no eggs but I'm sure they're there.

Are these queen cells?
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs23.postimg.cc%2Fl9vo811zb%2FDSCF9258.jpg&hash=819e28001d5865f46eb3e9d70f0a9c589cb04037) (http://postimg.cc/image/l9vo811zb/)

(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs23.postimg.cc%2F9ak60pwef%2FDSCF9261.jpg&hash=0bb6fbcc0378911838846807357d0d0c37145788) (http://postimg.cc/image/9ak60pwef/)

Are these drone cells? they push straight out
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3.postimg.cc%2Flqp86c17z%2FDSCF9260.jpg&hash=e1a21244a70b67e949d888eab755a7d6c011000e) (http://postimg.cc/image/lqp86c17z/)

(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3.postimg.cc%2Fo9ax70my7%2FDSCF9268.jpg&hash=7360322069d1a6ce504857b359afb1d0d472cb25) (http://postimg.cc/image/o9ax70my7/)

(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3.postimg.cc%2F55hlqoa3z%2FDSCF9270.jpg&hash=1cd68cfe478d88264ff3536b085d3a42032a0b7d) (http://postimg.cc/image/55hlqoa3z/)

I know these are empty cells, there were 6 of them
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs18.postimg.cc%2F724fgvlb9%2FDSCF9259.jpg&hash=f01882ccc92ed7a83801a2317aeb1bafe544a075) (http://postimg.cc/image/724fgvlb9/)

(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs18.postimg.cc%2F49ftalacl%2FDSCF9265.jpg&hash=ac0c74efe3633681ec251ff15e814a344d0d4780) (http://postimg.cc/image/49ftalacl/)

(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs18.postimg.cc%2Fouul2hrxh%2FDSCF9269.jpg&hash=92fb3fe5e9575f28da44b90abdab0a6b31c65eb3) (http://postimg.cc/image/ouul2hrxh/)
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: brooksbeefarm on April 14, 2014, 12:35:16 am
Not seeing what i would call swarm cells. Looks like alot of spotty brood, i'm going fore superseding  going on. I would do nothing and let the bees be bees. Jack
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: Jen on April 14, 2014, 12:38:37 am
Thanks Brook! I didn't think I saw swarm signs either, superceding is okay  :)
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: LazyBkpr on April 14, 2014, 12:39:37 am
The bullet shaped cells are drone cells, but those that turn down are queen cells.
    Your pictures make my fingers itch. I want to look and SEE what the heck is going on.
   Quite a bit of wonky looking comb there too which doesnt help with spotting queen cells. it is unusual for a drone cell to be popped out in the midst of normal worker cells. They usually will cluster drone cells together in a corner, or on the bottom of frames etc..
   If I was looking at this in my hive I would suspect a poorly mated queen they want to supersede, but its hard to tell without the overall picture of having the frames in my hands.
   Hopefully Iddee and the Minions will pipe in with recommendations.
   Once again, if this was mine, I would be putting a newly purchased queen in there.  Lets see what the think tank comes up with.
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: Jen on April 14, 2014, 12:53:56 am
Okee Doke- I have all the other pics of todays inspection as well. I'll make another post with those. Thanks Scott

The wonky comb is why I got in there today, weather was lovely and calm.

Wonky carnage all cut out today, frames pushed closely and centered

(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs9.postimg.cc%2Fkba4fpda3%2FDSCF9266.jpg&hash=8b5a7b7b51fa85c09cc85625dbd274cf365a1ce1) (http://postimg.cc/image/kba4fpda3/)

(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs9.postimg.cc%2Fy8sal0bcr%2FDSCF9283.jpg&hash=28fc8846b1fb184853ba630f8a0f7f4c97ccd767) (http://postimg.cc/image/y8sal0bcr/)
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: pistolpete on April 14, 2014, 01:12:56 am
Yikes, carnage for sure.  I see 3 varroa mites in that top picture.  That's not a lot, but something to keep an eye on.
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: Jen on April 14, 2014, 01:20:23 am
Yeeah, I've had to do this twice this spring, it looks like armageddon afterwards. Thru all the swarming stuff this season I forgot to put these frames together tightly after the bees were installed, so I go a mess to deal with.

The last armageddon I did, the bees swarmed the next day. Maybe they were planning it anyway, but it did occur to me that it was too much for them. I hope they're okay  :-\
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: brooksbeefarm on April 14, 2014, 08:51:06 am
Jen, looks like plastic foundation in some of your pictures, bees will sometimes build wonky comb on it or i might say away from it, ;D. Like lazy said, i also think you have a failing queen.I think it's probably caused from the toxic fumes from the plastic foundation. :laugh: Jack
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: tbonekel on April 14, 2014, 11:43:32 am
Same thing here with foundation. It takes my bees forever to draw out foundation and when they do, it's slow and wonky. It just seems they don't like it for some reason. If I put an empty frame with a guide, they hop on that immediately and start building that comb. I can almost hear a sigh of relief coming from the hive. But I don't take a stance against foundation. I think it just depends on the bees.
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: barry42001 on April 14, 2014, 11:45:55 am
Looking like both spotty brood, wonky comb and as a added benefit::) supersedure cells..

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Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: G3farms on April 14, 2014, 11:51:32 am
Hopefully that new superseded queen will not be so swarmy!!
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: Jen on April 14, 2014, 11:53:57 am
Brook, I couldn't agree more. The plastic frames are a long story. I'm switching them out as fast as I can. Actually, I had many switched out until the 5 swarms hit and they were all I had on hand to hive the bees. But still, I'm working on switching them out  :)

Regarding Failing Queen: I was visiting with our bee guru in our area a couple of days ago. He commented that the new studies for mating queens says that it 'used to be' that queens needed to mate 15-20 times. But the average now a days, is 50-60 matings to be adequate for the job. If there is truth to this, it would make sense as to why there are so many failing hives these days, one of the reasons anyway.

Another reason why my hives might be continually superceding is the time of year in our area. We've had a unusually early spring for upper California. There may not be enough drones or mature enough drones to get the queen filled up so to speak. It makes sense that if this swarm hive that I was in yesterday has 6 empty queen cells... well it makes me wonder how many queens the hive has already been thru to get one that will lay properly.

My head is buzzing ~ I think I'll start a thread on this subject of Failing Queens

Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: Jen on April 14, 2014, 12:04:49 pm
tbone- ""Same thing here with foundation. It takes my bees forever to draw out foundation and when they do, it's slow and wonky. It just seems they don't like it for some reason. If I put an empty frame with a guide, they hop on that immediately and start building that comb. I can almost hear a sigh of relief coming from the hive. But I don't take a stance against foundation. I think it just depends on the bees.""

Do you have plastic in your hives?

I'll be posting a pic of one of the wood/wax frames that the bees are making progress on. I'm sure leaning towards foundationless frames. Wonder how they hold up in an extracter, or do they?
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: tbonekel on April 14, 2014, 12:57:03 pm
I still have about half plasticell foundation. I don't have any of the full plastic frames and foundation "sets". As far as extraction, I have heard that it's pretty easy to have a blowout with foundationless frames. I don't have an extractor yet. If I am lucky enough to get some honey for myself this season, I plan to "crush and strain" with some comb honey as well.
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: Jen on April 14, 2014, 02:11:33 pm
Sounds like the foundationless would come apart. But it that's the case, you get the wax for crafting, and then let the bees build again.

I'm not counting on honey this year, it would be great but after the swarming I don't think so. I know nothing of the extraction process at this point.
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: barry42001 on April 14, 2014, 02:25:51 pm
Need atleast wired foundation, or will indeed " blow out " natural comb is really quite delicate.

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Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: Jen on April 14, 2014, 02:31:45 pm
So then I guess you would pull the comb, if it's loose, and let the bees restart. Then with the pulled comb you have crafting wax  :)
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: CpnObvious on April 14, 2014, 02:34:09 pm
PistolPete...  For the untrained eye, where do you see the mites?  You said the "top picture"... but top picture that was posted at 12:25:25am or 12:53:56 am?  Could you please point them out as reference to me?
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: Jen on April 14, 2014, 02:38:14 pm
Actually Cpn- both hubby and I zoomed and closely examined for the mites Pete was referring to. We don't see them either.
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: CpnObvious on April 14, 2014, 03:05:43 pm
So I just poked around a little bit... looks like varroa mite looks a whole lot like a dog tick.  I would think that would be easy-enough to identify, even for the untrained eye... Is this correct?
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: Jen on April 14, 2014, 03:32:06 pm
They are similar is shape but much smaller. It very hard to see them with the naked eye. But they are very obvious on pulled white drone brood. If you're sitting next to your hive and watching your bees with the intent that you can spot a varroa mite, it's almost impossible.
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: LazyBkpr on April 14, 2014, 06:10:56 pm
Need atleast wired foundation, or will indeed " blow out " natural comb is really quite delicate.

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   Only in its first year. When comb is first made it is soft, but stiffens up readily as time passes. I extract NEW comb every year, and only have a problem if I try to run the extractor set on wow. Tangential extractors will certainly have more of a problem with this, but the radial do fine if common sense is used.
   And of course... I use mediums, not deeps  ;D
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: Jen on April 14, 2014, 06:11:53 pm
Hey Scott pm'd you  :)
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: Slowmodem on April 14, 2014, 06:17:43 pm
They are similar is shape but much smaller. It very hard to see them with the naked eye. But they are very obvious on pulled white drone brood.

Very easy to see.  Can you spot the mite in this picture?

(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-kuX5Lqv6aJI%2FUCxN5W8N4VI%2FAAAAAAAAAH0%2FiJMAecy56ZM%2Fs1600%2F2012-08-15_15-02-24_5b.jpg&hash=02951ed46acbe8c0d7176ad555a644b963fe9ee5)
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: Jen on April 14, 2014, 06:22:43 pm
Good pic Slow! Yes! they are easy to see on a white larva, but not easy to see on a living bee  :)
Title: Re: Need help identifying cells
Post by: pistolpete on April 14, 2014, 10:05:57 pm
It's hard to be 100% sure because things are a bit gooey, but if you look at the picture of the cut drone brood, there is an intact larva near the middle of the frame.  The next cell to the right looks like it has a mite near the top and bottom.  Then about two cells over and one down there seems to be another mite.   I find mites are quite easy to see without magnification.