Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: DonMcJr on April 24, 2014, 10:02:45 pm
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2 of Our club members got packages 10 days ago and installed them the same way right next to each other. One hive is totally dead after 10 days and the other is doing fine...
Would one expect the supplier to do something about this? Just curious...
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Probably not but worth a try calling. None of my "survivor" bees caught on my own have right out died. I have had more than a 50% death rate with my packages the last two years. I called it quits on them last year. Very slow and disappointing to me personally.
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You already know the variables are nearly infinite with beekeeping, so proving to a supplier that YOU didnt kill the bees somehow would be quite difficult...
The reason its worth a try? Some suppliers still have a little honor left, and will try to make it right so you keep ordering from them.
The ones that laugh at you are the ones you and your club DONT order from the next year.
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10,000 bees die in 10 days when they looked healthy on arrival? I would say insecticide on the neighbor's garden or similar. If there was something wrong with them before shipping, they would either have arrived dead or dwindled over a month or more. I wouldn't expect the breeder to be responsible.
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I also vote for a pesticide kill. Sounds like that one hive found someones shrubs or trees in bloom that have been sprayed.
Tell us more about what you saw at the hive entrance.....bees staggering around, disoriented, unable to fly.
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I eco what Iddee said some type of poisen to die in ten days. Bees could have been exposed prior to being shaken but should have had some dead in the package. But that package could have been shaken from a different yards, thus being exposed to different elemens. Did they mix their syrup
Together or did it on their own? Could one have used something that was contaminated? One never ran out of feed and staved with this cold late spring starvation could be a problem.
Sent from my LG-P500h using Tapatalk 2
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Bummer. That would certainly be disappointing and frustrating. If Iddee is correct, and it sounds very reasonable, it's something that could happen to any of us. Still a bummer though.
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I'll be the one who disagrees.. ;D
right next to each other.
One hive is totally dead after 10 days and the other is doing fine..
The bees WILL find the same places to forage..
If SOME of the bees in the other hive had died... maybe, but I don't buy it
with one hive unaffected. I don't see one hive finding a large enough, and deadly enough source to kill the entire hive in such a short time, and leave the other hive untouched.
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""The bees WILL find the same places to forage.. ""
Wrong. When the scouts hone in on a feeding area, the hive will work it until it quits producing. If the scouts from the 2 hives found 2 different feeding areas, they would not both be affected.
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Don, those bees come from AWS?
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I got 10 packages from AWS and they are all fine ( knock on wood).
Possibility? Could the queen have died in the one hive and everyone else moved to the queen right hive?
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""The bees WILL find the same places to forage.. ""
Wrong. When the scouts hone in on a feeding area, the hive will work it until it quits producing. If the scouts from the 2 hives found 2 different feeding areas, they would not both be affected.
I agree with this whole heartedly, just watch the bees on a bright sunny day, when they leave the hive they go in all different directions.
With all of the bee junk sitting on my porch, there is sometimes a piece or two of wet comb. I will mark the workers with a paint pen and watch as they come and go, after a while it is only the marked bees returning and no unmarked ones. I guess there is not enough of the wet comb to REALLY excite them.
If it was something like sevin dust stuck in their hair and they carried it back to the hive all of the other bees that groomed them would of course spread it through out the hive.
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Don what is in your area that is blooming that would need to be sprayed?
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""The bees WILL find the same places to forage.. ""
Wrong. When the scouts hone in on a feeding area, the hive will work it until it quits producing. If the scouts from the 2 hives found 2 different feeding areas, they would not both be affected.
I agree with this whole heartedly, just watch the bees on a bright sunny day, when they leave the hive they go in all different directions.
With all of the bee junk sitting on my porch, there is sometimes a piece or two of wet comb. I will mark the workers with a paint pen and watch as they come and go, after a while it is only the marked bees returning and no unmarked ones. I guess there is not enough of the wet comb to REALLY excite them.
If it was something like sevin dust stuck in their hair and they carried it back to the hive all of the other bees that groomed them would of course spread it through out the hive.
I know for a fact they use the same areas, have seen my carnys and itallians in the same flowers. Bees sugar dusted that morning on another beeks feeder nearly a mile away. I have found my Italians foraging with the feral bees in my mothers flower gardens 2 miles away.
When the neighbor doesn't cut his alfalfa in time and it blooms, every bee I have is foraging in that field. The multiflower rose bushes in the bottom also draw every bee I have. The Mulberry blooms, Apple trees, etc, etc, etc...
I doubt very much if they ask their neighbors which direction they intend on searching today and agree to go to different areas.
If we are talking about a flower pot with half a dozen flowers in it, I might agree, otherwise I will have to say I'm sorry, you cant convince me they dont forage the same areas when I know better. we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
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We don't have to disagree. We do agree. What I am saying is, each hive will work the first thing they find. If it's the same one another found, fine. If it's a different find, they will stay with that one until it is done. I did not say they wouldn't work the same things, I just said they would work what the scouts found until it is finished. It may be the same as another hive, or entirely different.
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Sorry been real busy with the bee club and our earth fair...
Nothing was blooming that could have been sprayed. Both these packages were picked up from my truck after I got them amm from the supplyer and were in great condition. These women are friends and went right from picking them up to installing them same day. They had the hives 4 feet apart. It was 50's when they installed them and in the next 10 days it was below freezing at night and around 50 average daytime. About 3 days scattered around 70.
Nothing was blooming except Maple trees and such. None of our flowers starting blooming til a few days ago and not many my tulips in front of my house still arent flowers yet. Not even any dandelions yet.
So a very strange situation and yes from AWS but I know its nothing AWS did wrong...
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I started reading about all the bee losses coming out of almonds this year.(fungicide)
Were they placed in dead out equipment?
I think your problem started in Orland. Let us know if you guys lose any more.
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Don, was the dead hive full of dead bees? Bees scattered on the ground in front of the entrance? Were the bees ever observed bringing *anything* into the hive?
Was the equipment identical and from the same vendor? Was the equipment stored in the same location and in the same fashion prior to the package bees installation?
Are the hives in an low-visibility area or visible by people passing by? ...since there wasn't anything for them to be foraging on I'm thinking of a possible intentional insecticide spraying by someone, but that person was driven away by the angry bees before they could spray the second hive.
Were the two hives fed the same feed from the same batches...sugar syrup, pollen patties? Was the syrup given in identical containers? ...feed prepared in same container? ...possible contaminated container or feed used on one hive but something different used on the other one.
To the experts...what disease is there that can run rampant through a population of honey bees (can't really call it a colony yet as it sounds like it never got established) and completely kill it in 10 days? To me, ten days just seems too short of a time period for something non-chemical to wipe out that many bees, provided there was that many dead bees in/around the hive and not simply missing. Of course, if there is a disease that could take a new package out that fast I'm all ears to hear about it...my education continues. :)
Ed
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You didn't mention this so I assume they was feeding the new packages.
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Bees were dead inside the hive mostly a few outside...
Equipment brand new from same supplier.
I believe they fed them the same sugar syrup but I can ask...
were in the country so I doubt anyone sprayed them on purpose...
ill attach 2 pics...
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs30.postimg.cc%2F6d0k4ql1p%2F1604882_10203666674050367_4697127762096467573_n.jpg&hash=5493c012aa5f69e46f44908ed14af56e645b639e) (http://postimg.cc/image/6d0k4ql1p/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs8.postimg.cc%2Fqbdcpicpt%2F10155505_10203666680770535_8780469069638302495_n.jpg&hash=ca072e44fdbf7a590d73cb8bc2d639d395c7e9e6) (http://postimg.cc/image/qbdcpicpt/)
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don, were the bees installed on foundation only?
if they were, given your temperatures, this might explain the loss. the bees are clustered and too few bees to break cluster to move to a syrup feeder.
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It sounds like starvation either from no feed, not keeping constant feed or as riverbee suggested unable to break cluster to move to feeder. I have had bees I had feeders on almost starve to death right next to a hive that was booming. Come to find out the hive that was starving was taking twice as much feed as the other hives and didn't know they was emptying the syrup before I refilled.
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Here's more info of anything different they did...
" I kept my hive indoors after I painted it, she kept hers outside.
We each made our own sugar syrup and I do not know how much sugar she actually used but I used a ton (8 lbs.)
It was so cold the night we got and installed our bees we didn't spray them at all but we did a little bit on the inside of the hives on the foundation.
We removed the queen cages on Saturday. That's when something happened because both hives were alive at that point. When we took the queen cages out, there were so many dead bees on the bottom of her hive we were both shocked! I had some but not nearly as many as she had. I wonder of something happened to those boxes while they sat outside? Or if her sugar syrup was contaminated? I don't know, I just feel bad because it was less then 7 seven days"
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I'm going to stick with starvation. Did she mix 1:1 if it was weaker than 1:1 the bees may not get the nutrients they need and starve fairly quickly.
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"It was so cold the night we got and installed our bees we didn't spray them at all but we did a little bit on the inside of the hives on the foundation."
i think this is the key here, bees installed on nothing but foundation and in cold temps, and as rat said they starved. one kept indoors, the other with the loss outdoors. i've had beeks here start bees on foundation in cold temps and lose them in a short period of time. i found this don:
Package Bees MAAREC (http://agdev.anr.udel.edu/maarec/beginning-beekeeping-2/package-bees/)
read the 2nd paragraph, i believe that this is probably true about our climates and hiving/feeding package bees:
"You should order packages in January or February to ensure timely delivery in early spring (April). If you are installing packages on drawn combs containing honey and pollen, you can do so in early April; if you are installing them on comb foundation, then you should order them to arrive in late April or early May. Beekeepers in northern areas may wish to delay shipments for a couple of weeks. Package bees could die if installed on foundation in temperatures below 57°F (14°C) because too few bees will be able to break cluster and move to syrup feeders. Bees clustered on combs of honey, on the other hand, do not have to break cluster in order to eat."
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riverbee, no bees were kept inside. From what I read one person's woodenware was allowed to dry and air out outdoors while the other one was kept indoors to dry and air out. The bees that died were housed in the woodenware that was allowed to dry outdoors.
I'm thinking starvation...whether from a too dilute mix of syrup or either from letting the feed run and stay empty for too long. To survive those temperatures they would have had to have access to feed. All the previous is, of course, in the case that no toxic substance killed them.
I'm curious, when the dead hive was discovered was there any syrup left in the feeder?
Ed
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So Don, anymore loss from that same group of pkg? I hope it was just our cold spring weather that got them. We have a bunch of club members that purchased bees from that first load too.
I'll hear about their progress soon.
Most had good luck last year with pkg's from them. It's about this time frame that we start getting the queen calls. I just now have purple eyed drones.
Next load from AWS is due in tomorrow!
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"riverbee, no bees were kept inside. From what I read one person's woodenware was allowed to dry and air out outdoors while the other one was kept indoors to dry and air out. The bees that died were housed in the woodenware that was allowed to dry outdoors.
I'm thinking starvation...whether from a too dilute mix of syrup or either from letting the feed run and stay empty for too long. To survive those temperatures they would have had to have access to feed. All the previous is, of course, in the case that no toxic substance killed them."
yep, misread that ed. with that said i have said twice, two strikes against this hive, hived on foundation in cold temps with a syrup feeder above them. continuing cold temps, bees clustered on foundation and won't move to the syrup feeder. =starvation. different story if they were hived on drawn combs with honey in them. if both hives were under the same circumstances, dunno why one made it and the other not.
per don and the email he received about it and also considering his reported weather:
"It was so cold the night we got and installed our bees we didn't spray them at all but we did a little bit on the inside of the hives on the foundation.
We removed the queen cages on Saturday. That's when something happened because both hives were alive at that point. When we took the queen cages out, there were so many dead bees on the bottom of her hive we were both shocked! ".
i utilize package bees to draw foundation in the spring, but i will not hive them here in temps below 60 d F and nightime temps at freezing, on any foundation with a syrup feeder on top for this reason. the packages are hived on drawn combs and combs with honey in them to start. i have seen too many beeks up here hive package bees on foundation with syrup feeders on top and yes, the bees died of starvation because they didn't break cluster to get to the syrup feeder.
don, just my two cents, and i don't believe there was some toxic substance. in cooler weather the bees aren't flying to get into anything.
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Thanks for the response, riverbee. It is interesting that one hive made it and the other didn't...what the difference was...we'll never know. Your explanation of them simply clustering and not moving to the food and thus dieing makes sense.
What would/should a new beekeeper do that has no resources, receives a package and hives it on foundation only for the weather to turn cold?
Don, what type of feeder was used?
I'm just trying to think what some one with no resources other than new equipment can do in the situation that these beekeepers were faced with.... A hive top feeder would make them have to break cluster wouldn't it? Also, a baggie feeder...they'd have to break cluster for that. In my newbie mind a jar feeder over the escape hole of an inner cover or directly over the frames would allow them to remain in the cluster as would using the mountaincamp feeding method or a sugar block. Basically the bees need to be able to stay in cluster but reach the feed...correct? So, would type/method of feeding make a significant difference in the bees surviving?
Maybe I'm rambling too much? ???
Ed
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Not at all Ed.
A small space, with sugar or fondant directly over the cluster.
IE;
A follower board that could reduce the ten frame box to six frames. Install the bees in this space, put sugar or fondant directly over them. They "should" cluster right under the food source and not have to travel far.
If Robo is correct, in that new hives will be more desperate for syrup, even a jar directly over the cluster might work. They do not have to "move" to get to it like they do a hive top feeder, an entrance feeder, or even a baggie where they have to climb up on top of it.
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Thanks Lazy. It sounds like early packages in cool climates might benefit from "contact feeding" as insurance against sudden cold snaps isolating the bees from a distant feeder. In other words, no barriers whatsoever between the feed and bees. Packing them down with a follower board to guide/corral them in the proper area makes sense, too. Thanks again! This is my third summer and I've still got lots to learn!!! :)
Ed