Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: Jen on May 07, 2014, 01:57:36 pm
-
First off I had no intention of looking for the newly hatched queen or eggs until next week. That said, this is the deep nuc that we started for hubs to take to his dad's property. We've known that the bottom board was upside down so that is why the follower board didn't fit properly. Nice warm day, so I gently lifted the hive up and over so hubby could turn the bottom board right side up. There she was :( motionless. I very gently nudged her to see if there was any reaction. Nothing, legs curled up no antenna moving. I took this as an okay to check the frames for supercedure cells. There was one that I could find.
It's been about 7-8 days since her cage was installed. I don't know how long she's been out and laying.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs29.postimg.cc%2Fnj1v7i7rn%2FDSCF9510.jpg&hash=7eba9e21681893ba5954d5b1d032170e3335237f) (http://postimg.cc/image/nj1v7i7rn/)
I did find eggs and larvae in assorted stages
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.postimg.cc%2Fo7vp6tj6j%2FDSCF9514.jpg&hash=d86a97e6597d7ab6bf28abf215c409bb950894ec)[/url
[url=http://postimg.cc/image/g794tnqjd/](https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs4.postimg.cc%2Fg794tnqjd%2FDSCF9515.jpg&hash=492204da9cc4f400f2971884cdf670596f68601e) (http://postimg.cc/image/o7vp6tj6j/)
Queen cell
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs29.postimg.cc%2Fd3rk4824z%2FDSCF9518.jpg&hash=a25286e2acf3a5dcbb3d67a651dc86fc40e294f8) (http://postimg.cc/image/d3rk4824z/)
1. If purchased queen is dead and there is a supercedure cell... which queen laid the eggs?
2. What if the supercedure cell queen is from the genetics that I'm trying to get rid of?
-
I'll go out on a limb on this one----
The queen looks like she's recently dead (not shriveled or dried out)
The "supercedure cell" looks more like a queen cup, but the focus on that shot isn't sharp enough to be certain.
Check to see that there is an egg or larva in the queen cup/cell.
Assuming that the young larvae in the regular brood cells pictured are from the dead purchased queen, any egg or young larva in the queen cup/cell could have been moved there by the bees after she died.
To answer your question as to which queen laid the egg, try to see if you can detect a distinct "age break" in the brood you have. If, let's say you see eggs and young larvae and cpped larvae but no older larvae, you should be able to assign the egg/larva in the queen cup/cell to the earlier queen or the recently died queen.
I wonder if what I wrote can be understood. :-\
-
Hi efmesch! Nice to hear from you :)
Yes, It's completely understood what your trying to get across. After reading your instructions I went back out and looked at the cell, no egg in it. But I did find a new queen.
I don't know if you have followed my posts of my crazy swarmy bees. I replaced three queens to develop new genetics that won't swarm so much. Looks like these bees superceded my purchased queen and now have a new queen that they hatched.
My question is and I'm hoping: That this new queen is from an egg from the purchased/dead queen?
I don't think I have the developed scientific eye to decide what stages the larvae's are in to determine a break in time.
-
......I don't think I have the developed scientific eye to decide what stages the larvae's are in to determine a break in time.
With your learning curve so rapid, it won't be long before you'll be able to do it without any effort.
Consider the option of marking the queen so you can keep track of her. I know that to the uninitiated it sounds scary, but, like all aspects of beekeeping, you learn by doing.
-
I would love to know how to mark my queens :) Maybe I'll make that my next adventure. Thanks Efmesch! always enjoy your tutoring.
-
I just had to laugh !
I'll go out on limb......Yep She's Dead ! Was my first thought.
I've only followed a little of the swarmy events. So I'm not up to speed with 'When this dead queen was installed'.
That would be the factor to consider. If this was just recent then the answer is no. Give us the time frames.
Hate to see a queen in that condition...unless she has it coming ! ;D
Tim
-
Also some keeps.....think that marked queens have a higher tendency to get "Bumped Off" due to being defective.
-
Just wondering.....That unexpected queen you found---was she a virgin or mated?
Could it be that you introduced your purchased queen into the hive when it had a ripe unobserved queen cell or a recently emerged virgin already present. A mated queen (slow and heavy) is considered to be no match against a virgin queen (fast and furious) in the fight for life that is inevitable when they meet up.
That could explain the "mysterious death" of your new queen, but would also answer your question about the mother of the eggs in the hive:
The brood in the cells is probably from the dead queen (depending on how long she was in the hive before her assassination) , but the living queen has her genetics from the queen you wanted to eliminate.
Tim is definitely right about the marked queens sometimes being seen as "defective" by the bees in the hive, but I don't think that applies when the marking has been done properly---not too much paint and no damage to the legs or wings in the marking process.
If it's not already too late, you could try some experimentation and raise another new queen from the eggs/young brood in the hive, assuming that they came from your now dead queen. But that's another story in itself. ;D
-
Jen. I read the OP again. I was thinking this was a nuc made from a hive as a split or swarm prior.
If I read it right....You just introduced a new queen into this Nuc. I would be inclined to think that you missed a queen cell when you placed the queen cage into it. If that's the case then, efmesch is very correct that we assume a virgin queen emerged and came after your new queen.
If so then this new queen (alive) is from old genetics.
I have not read how long you had this nuc queenless prior to the intro of caged one. And if they had already had plans to supersede the previous queen you got rid of.
Guess I should just ask..... Has this marked (dead queen) been in the hive for more then 16 days?
Hope this makes a little sence.
Tim
-
I placed the new purchased queen in her cage into this nuc 7-8 days ago. I removed the empty cage 5 days later, I believe that was sunday. When I put the queen cage into the hive, the hive had been queenless for 24 hours... to my knowledge.
For both Efmesch and Garden ~ the reason for requeening is that the bees I have are merciless queen cell makers. The hive right next to the one we're dealing with now... I pulled out 29 supercedure cells about early last week. Those cells would have been made within the last 3 weeks or so. It's been swarm crazy around here.
-
Well there you have your answer. Sorry to say, the queen that is there now is not from the marked queen.
I see you are having some very interesting events to deal with. I like what efmesch said, about that learning curve. You are getting a lot in a short period.
Those young ladies have struck again with producing another of their own. :o
The cell in the photo, looks to be just a cup.
If you wish to get rid of these and want the small benefit of the remaining bees. Pinch the new queen and combine them (newspaper) with another hive. Or just send them on their way with the other keep that was willing to take.
Hang in there. ;D
-
Very interesting situation Jen. Sorry I'm not able to help but I really enjoyed the pictures. Good luck.
-
Garden- ""Those young ladies have struck again with producing another of their own""
WELL FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! There's 30 smackers down the drain!
Garden! I can't combine until I can get into the other two hives next Weds. The other two hives were also requeened last week! It would be too soon to add bees. And Frankly! I don't trust these bees anymore! by the time I could combine, this dead queen hive will have produced a couple of dozen queen cells again.
I'm backed against a wall with a lighter in my hand !! (I will not reveal the forum member that lives in Richland Iowa that said he would do that) ;) ;D
-
Jen, I hope you won't mind a few suggestions. You still have the desired genetics in two of your other hives. In a week or so, you can deal with this unwanted queen (put her in that alcohol jar), then, five or six days later, place a frame containing eggs from each of the other hives into that NUC and let them make a queen from the eggs laid by the new queens.
That will mean destroying every queen cell made from the undesirable queen's eggs. Double and triple check that all cells are destroyed. Waiting 5 or 6 or 7 days before introducing new eggs so the queen cells are large enough that you won't miss them. Brush the bees off if you must to be sure there are no queen cells remaining before your introduce the new frames from the other hive(s). HTH :)
-
I sure hope so Lborou, this idea definately on the table :)
What does HTH mean?
-
HTH= Hope That Helps............
-
:) thanks :)
-
Sorry to hear this Jen.
OK We need to determine whether the new purchase queen was released and laid before she saw killed by a virgin that emerged or was in the hive, or whether there was the virgin already in the hive and hadn't started to lay yet.
It would require 12 day for them to produce a queen from larva. So I doubt this happened so there was a missed queen cell or young new virgin or queen.
If new queen was released and started to lay in the hive you would find only eggs and very young larva and a gap in brood that is older in age with the last of the old brood being capped or already capped. If you have brood of all ages I doubt that she laid and was killed upon her release by the queen already in the hive.
If you see signs of a brake in brood the young brood and bees could be from her and she was killed by an emerged virgin. and you could find another break in egg laying between when she was killed and the new queen starts laying.
If it was me i would let the queen head the colony for a cycle or 2 of brood. In a weeks time pull a frame of brood (Queen cell age larva) and start it in a nuc and shake bees off of open frames of brood from the dead queen hive and check in 4 days that you have queen cells on that frame from the other colony in the nuc.
Let it raise the queen and mate and once she is laying in the nuc then introduce her to the colony that has been dequeened. this way you can keep the colony building up while you raise a replacement queen.
-
LOL Lighter in hand...
For Crimineys sake.......
LB has a grand idea, but as prolific as those bees build cells I think I would go the nuc method Apis mentions.. This way there is no guessing.. Your hive still builds up, and you still cut it back down to make a nuc from it.. so hopefully prevent it from swarm # 1109
Pull the brood from one of your re queened hives, but shake bees from the hive you WANT to re - re - requeen
If it was me i would let the queen head the colony for a cycle or 2 of brood. In a weeks time pull a frame of brood (Queen cell age larva) and start it in a nuc and shake bees off of open frames of brood from the dead queen hive and check in 4 days that you have queen cells on that frame from the other colony in the nuc.
Let it raise the queen and mate and once she is laying in the nuc then introduce her to the colony that has been dequeened. this way you can keep the colony building up while you raise a replacement queen.
-
Are we playing chess?? :D
You have the resources.....How are you going to manage them? At what time? I like Apis' plan(s). I hope you can see a break in the brood production in the dead queen's hive, they make a queen from eggs of the dead queen and they live happily ever after. It is very likely that the dead queen was killed upon leaving the queen cage.
Only down side of leaving the bad queen in there for the 30 days necessary to make a new queen is the likelihood of another round of swarm cells while the good queen develops in the NUC. From your chronicles of those swarmy bees Jen, it doesn't seem too big a leap to expect more swarms with little delay. Maybe I'm missing something.
If you can't control the swarm impulse of the bad queen's bees, you won't be any worse off than pinching the bad queen in ten days, killing the emergency cells that develop, and introducing a frame of eggs and brood from another hive and allowing the more populous hive to make the new queen for you. JMO HTH :)
-
Lborou - ""Are we playing chess??""
Good Gravy! Scrambled eggs in my head!
I've printed this off and will join heads with hubby to decifer.
He was born with the math/chess brain, I was born with the creative brain.
PS. I have the lighter, hubby now has the gas can ~ snark ~ kidding ;)
I am beginning to see this scenerio as the new Stephen King novel "Beekeeper Reaper"
-
Another equation: I should wait 10 days after I have removed the queen cages to get into the other two hives and check for eggs and brood. Should I do the Apis/Lborou ideas now? or should I wait until next Weds when the ten days are up?
Frankly, I'm nervous about what I'm going to see in the other two hives. These crazy bees can make a queen cell in one hour. :o :sad:
-
Frankly, I'm nervous about what I'm going to see in the other two hives. These crazy bees can make a queen cell in one hour. :o :sad:
Have you had the same swarming phenomenon with the other hives too? If so, I would start thinking that there is something about your hive management that stimulates raising all those unneeded, unwanted queens. One such a swarming queen would be rare enough, to have them all following such a pattern would raise my questioning mind to think of alternative causes.
-
Hey Jen, Wondering how well the Adult Beverage was last night.... I hope calming. ;)
Now that the queens have been in the hives for 9 days, I would go through the hives with a complete inspection. Go in with a positive attitude and deliberate plan. Of course you and we are hoping that you find that your newly marked queens are just wandering around and laying as planned.
But yet prepared for the same results as in the nuc. I say this because if you find unplanned queen or queens then you want to handle that while there. Re-queening can be problematic, even though most of the time it is very easy and uneventful.
I get from past post that you are not looking to grow your apiary and you do not have to. I may be wrong. But if you find an additional queen or queens that are not to your plan or liking then remove them with a couple of frames of bees. These can be sold or traded or gifted to others. Even if this is a complete breakdown of a hive. I have a queen castle for this purpose. You can use any of the smaller nuc type boxes, even cardboard.
I say this as I sense that you would like to see them (bees, even swarmy bees) live on. But I also look at it as a hobby that I wish to receive some fruits of my labor.....
I pinch the queens and combine to the available woodenware that I have planned to use, in order to get a honey crop. That is just my management plan.
I wish you luck with your upcoming inspections. :)
Tim
-
Another equation: I should wait 10 days after I have removed the queen cages to get into the other two hives and check for eggs and brood. Should I do the Apis/Lborou ideas now? or should I wait until next Weds when the ten days are up?
Apis recommended (if I understand correctly) time enough for one or two rounds of brood before making big changes. I see wisdom in that recommendation. You may be in a circumstance when doing nothing is the best thing for now. Yes, check for eggs and assess the other two hives -watch for queen cells in dead queen's hive. Then, reassess your resources and decide how & when you want to act. I'm not trying to be at odds with Apis, he knows more about bees than I do. Let's listen to his advice on timing, after you do the other inspections and we get your report. JMO :)
-
Ef- ""Have you had the same swarming phenomenon with the other hives too? If so, I would start thinking that there is something about your hive management that stimulates raising all those unneeded, unwanted queens. One such a swarming queen would be rare enough, to have them all following such a pattern would raise my questioning mind to think of alternative causes.""
Ef- :) I have seriously considered this suggestion. Maybe it's ME! I think back and know this... if a situation arises where I need advice, I go straight to this forum, gather info, and determine feels right for me which is usually the majority vote.
Last year my mother hive swarmed three times, then proceeded to build an incredible hive that came thru the winter beautifully. This year she started to swarm very early, then the captured and hived swarms started to swarm.
I'm not pacing in front of the hives, I'm not continually peeking and fussing.
I don't know, shrug, I just don't know :-\
-
Go through the hive every week and remove queen cells queen cups.
Only need to do it for f weeks. But it will keep the bee population heading in the proper direction.
-
""Only need to do it for f weeks."
Apis- how many weeks is that? :)
-
Just a thought maybe genetically the quees are not producing the proper type amount of pheromones to keep the bees satisfied that their is a queen in the hive. If this is the case the new queen genetics and queen pheromones will address the swarming issue. But if it is the the genetic trait for the worker bees to build queen cells once you have confirmed that the 2 new queens are laying, I would be going through those hives also every week for the next month also. And just keep taking out any queen cell or cups.
-
Apis- ""Just a thought maybe genetically the quees are not producing the proper type amount of pheromones to keep the bees satisfied that their is a queen in the hive.""
Jen- Could this have anything to do with the fact that my first swarms came so early this year, like 3 months early? Probably weren't enough drones, and mature drones for that matter for proper mating. Seems to me that these queens are all immature as well.
Apis- ""If this is the case the new queen genetics and queen pheromones will address the swarming issue.""
Jen- Sure!! This was the point of requeening... but she died or they killed her. Apis... they are making new queens faster than I can get a new genetic queen hatched out of the cage ~ I'm thinking of qcell checks more like every three days?
-
Jen---Last year my mother hive swarmed three times
Ef---Was that one prime and two afterswarms or was that three distinctly separated periods when one swarm left the hive? If it was one prime and two afters, that wouldn't be considered swarming three times.
When the hives started to move toward swarming (raising new queens):
1. Did the bees seem at all crowded (did they cover most of the frames in mid day (at the time when a laarge percentaage of the family is out at work)?
2. Did you give them frames for building? When they are busy expanding, they have less time to plan for swarming.
3. Was there adequate ventilation---wide enough an entrance to keep the hives from running hot? (Had you cleaned away the accumuations of propolis around the inner sides of the entrance, the floor and the frames' tops and sides)?
4. Did the hives have enough room for expansion?
I assume you probably have the correct answer for these questions, but figure that they should be addressed anyway.
-
Ef---Was that one prime and two afterswarms or was that three distinctly separated periods when one swarm left the hive? If it was one prime and two afters, that wouldn't be considered swarming three times.
Let's start here :)
I'm 'thinking' that is was one prime, then two afterswarms. But I wasn't savvy about what swarms were then, as I am more savvy about them now... but still befuddled about them. Last year all three swarms left in about three weeks... spaced about a week in between, or there abouts. I didn't document last year like I am documenting now.
-
If there was a week between each swarm (lets count it as days 1,8 &15), they were all from the same queen, just that the family started raising the queens with a break. Could be that there were a few queens that were eliminated also in royal battles or while still inside their cells (the second situation is more likely). The queen cells that were too undeveloped didn't interest the emerged virgins, so they wern't eliminated before leaving the hive.
As the details become clearer, my thinking tends to tell me that it's not the DNA of the queen that is faulty here. If the queen that stayed behind was able to raise a strong enough family to build up and pull through the winter so well, I would tend to think that her genes are pretty good.
It hurts me to say it to such a sweet beekeeper, but I think you've got to reassess your hive management. But don't feel bad, for a starter, you've progressed rapidly and understand what's going on in the hives.
-
For Ef- When the hives started to move toward swarming (raising new queens):
1. Did the bees seem at all crowded (did they cover most of the frames in mid day (at the time when a laarge percentaage of the family is out at work)?
Absolutely Yes! I was learning about nucs and splits so that I would know what to do come May 1st. The bees beat me to it by swarming on March 16th. 6 weeks early
2. Did you give them frames for building? When they are busy expanding, they have less time to plan for swarming.
Two deeps: At the time they had an open bottom deep, I was planning a split, but didn't know about switching the bottom to the top. I do know that now :)
3. Was there adequate ventilation---wide enough an entrance to keep the hives from running hot? (Had you cleaned away the accumuations of propolis around the inner sides of the entrance, the floor and the frames' tops and sides)?
No.. was getting ready to do that by learning how to split first. But I do believe there was adequate ventilation...
4. Did the hives have enough room for expansion?
This was the part I didn't know about before this years swarms. The bottom deep was pretty empty, I thought they would go down, they didn't. And I've learned from other beeks that their bees didn't go down either. That's when it's time to switch the bottom to the top. I can do that next year.... if I have any bees left :sad:
Ef- I assume you probably have the correct answer for these questions, but figure that they should be addressed anyway.
Jen- Yes! I have learned a multitude of great information since January. And you my friend Ef, are one of my favorites to listen to because you teach in a simple manner that is easy to understand. Thank you from my bee heart ~Hugs for you~ ;) 8)
-
:-[
Bees are a lifetime learning experience
-
The clincher was when the swarm that was hived issued a swarm of it's own. The parent hive still had emerging brood and and a new queen that was not mated and potability laying at capacity. But for the swarm to swarm so quickly! Either lack of pheromones or very swarmy bees. With the new queens if the stop the building of queen cells then it points to lack of pheromones if the continue on building cells for another 6 to 9 weeks then it points to worker bee genetics wanting to swarm. watch them closely at first and if the settle down and behave nicely then you can relax the search and destroy mission.
-
Ef- ""If there was a week between each swarm (lets count it as days 1,8 &15), they were all from the same queen, just that the family started raising the queens with a break. Could be that there were a few queens that were eliminated also in royal battles or while still inside their cells (the second situation is more likely). The queen cells that were too undeveloped didn't interest the emerged virgins, so they wern't eliminated before leaving the hive.""
Sooo, what i think you are saying is that every time there is a new emerged virgin, a fight will ensue (I do know this). If there is a surplus of queen cells/virgins to be born, there is continual fighing. A battle ground in constant progress. In this event... there is no production going on in the hive, no egg laying, so the hive will be struggling to build.
Okay, I get that part.
Going back to the beginning, with the first swarm this year. Listening to our conversation today, I understand the reasons for spring swarming. What I don't understand is why the swarming continued for 6 weeks and added up to 10 swarms of which all were caught and hived. The swarms that were hived were swarming as well. And, last week I was gleaning a swarm hive of queen cells to ready it for the introduction of a new queen.. and it contained 29 capped queen cells.
If you can help solve this dilema, I will be your best friend forever :)
-
The clincher for me was when the hived swarms started swarming.. I try to do quite a bit to make sure the brood area is opened up and they are not crowded, but when a swarm is hived they have a lot of work to get done. Making queen cells should not be one of the priorities.. Perhaps a supercedure cell if the queen was not well mated that early, but not swarm cells. I have a gut feeling the new queens will make a difference, and I have high hopes the virgin that killed the replacement queen will settle in to do some work before deciding to run off with a pile of bees.
-
A little off topic, It relates but not saying this is the issue in this case or that you did it. I have heard and seen it where the beekeeper with good intentions will add an empty frame in the middle of the brood to give the queen more room to lay in and she doesn't cross the empty frame to check for missed cells or cells that have emerged to lay in on the separated frames thus her pheromones wear off and the bees will start cells because of the lack of pheromones. The same as what can happen when frames are pulled up above a queen excluder.
-
Jen, how many swarms did you actually see leaving the hive? And how many did you discover after they were airborne or gathered in a cluster?
-
Evening Iddee- I witnessed 10 swarms leave the hive, any 1 out of 3, get airborne and cluster on the bank behind our house. There may have been more than that tho.
-
Just wondering---could it be that those 2 out of three that don't "get airborne and cluster" are actually incidents of large masses of bees making orientation flights?
On this past Friday I was working in my garden and heard sounds that made me think a swarm was coming/leaving. When I looked carefully, I found one of my collected swarms from ealier this year with a larger than usual number of bees flying around the entrance. Despite the swarming sound, watching them for about five minutes convinced me that they were just orientating. Half an hour later it was "business as usual".
-
Hi Ef ~ Well that is certainly something to consider. The thing is, it depends on what you would call 'large masses'. Most of my swarms once landed averaged about 2 pounds of bees.
How many pounds of bees can one deep hold?
-
A well populated deep could probably hold about 7 lbs of bees give or take a pound (or two?)
I say this after a not very successful Google search for a clear answer. ;D
-
Ef- So the majority of the swarms I witnessed were a healthy 2 pounds of bees. There is 3,000 - 4,000 bees in one pound. To answer your question on if these swarms or some of them could have been large orientation flights... that would be a minimum of 6,000 bees airborne and orienting. Would that be possible? Wow!
Riverrat - a 3 lb package is a little smaller than a football
Bsweet - I would compare it to a large grapefruit. depends on if they wear yoga pants or eat alot of fast food. Jim
-
Jen----- that would be a minimum of 6,000 bees airborne and orienting. Would that be possible?
Ef----Not too likely.
We need Iddee to set us right on the statistics.
-
Iiiiiiiiddeeeeee, knock knock, anyone home :)
-
couldn't imagine a 6000 bee orientation flight
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk