Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => Beekeeping 101 => Topic started by: Riverrat on May 18, 2014, 09:32:58 am
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There is a lot of good advise as well as bad advise out on the world wide web concerning bees. I am curious what is some of the bad advice you followed when starting out and in the end found out it wasn't a great idea. I would have to say mine was putting bees in a remote area to keep them safe. It works well with established hives but nucs needing feed wasn't good when the rains came.
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This could be a fascinating thread.
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Not from the internet but the lady who sold me my first hive insisted I set it up at the base of my giant elm tree, where the sun only shines from November to March. Needless to say that hive had swarmed/ absconded and been overrun by wax moth within 4 months.
Internet is much better than local know it all. Best local advice comes from your bee club, this lady wasn't a member. She did give me a warranty hive, I picked it up. Her big trees were tiny feathery mesquites and she was in high prairie so her advice actually worked, for her. warranty hive had maybe 5 frames of bees in junk eqpt, I learned feeder design and sunshine on the internet.
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Not that I followed any of them, but IMHO, the worst I see daily is:
1.. Destroy swarm cells
2.. Queen excluders for first time beeks.
3.. Foundationless frames for first time beeks.
Other suggestions from experienced beeks that only work because they have the experience, but won't work for a newbee.
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...so her advice actually worked, for her...
This is the crux of the info/advise I have recieved so far. It comes from what works for the advisor, their environment and their management style as opposed to what could work for the new beekeeper in their environment and initial lack of management style.
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Your points are interesting, Iddee. I have never been able to figure out why so many folks advice destroying swarm cells instead of explaining what the swarm cells are telling the beekeeper. ... and then pointing out the options that depend on where the beekeeper is trying to get to.
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...so her advice actually worked, for her...
This is the crux of the info/advise I have recieved so far. It comes from what works for the advisor, their environment and their management style as opposed to what could work for the new beekeeper in their environment and initial lack of management style.
DMLinton, You beat me to the punch while I was getting ready to respond to this. But, you said it much better than I would have. ;)
I will add that being told to provide afternoon shade was not the greatest of advise. There are microclimates and what works for one doesn't always work for others.
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Iddee- ""1.. Destroy swarm cells""
In a normal situation, 'I think' I know what to do with spotting swarm cells. Do a split or a nuc from this hive to fake a swarm.
But this year, starting out with 1 double deep in the early spring, and ending with 10 swarms within 6 weeks...
And, one of the swarm hives containing 29 queen cells (not cups)
Wouldn't you say that this situation was a bit excessive?
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THIS! It's going to take me a long time to transfer these out ~
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs22.postimg.cc%2Fywfrxlcx9%2FDSCF7049.jpg&hash=821a2ed497c6dc19bc031fae971d7492f512a98f) (http://postimg.cc/image/ywfrxlcx9/)
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Find queen cells in 20 hives and take an average. You will find destroying queen cells is a terrible idea.There are always exceptions in bee keeping.
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Iddee- ""You will find destroying queen cells is a terrible idea. There are always exceptions in bee keeping.""
Mr. Wizard :) I humbly ask, 'What would you have done in the situation'
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Split into as many 3 frame nucs as I could and sold all but what I wanted on Craig's list at 125.00 each. Then PARTIED..... ;D
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Nice! Thanks Iddee, I'll remember that next time ;) 8)
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Seeing as how all my advice has come from here (and our previous forum homes), there has been no bad advice! :)
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Not advise, but a local guy I know says that need will fly 10 miles to forage and sometimes will stay overnight when returning to the hive. While overnighting is not too hard to believe, flying 10 miles is.
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One article I read, from a test in the dessert where food was placed at an increasing distance, said 7.2 mile was break even. After that, they burn more fuel than they can carry back.
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3.. Foundationless frames for first time beeks.
:'(
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One article I read, from a test in the dessert where food was placed at an increasing distance, said 7.2 mile was break even. After that, they burn more fuel than they can carry back.
I seem to remember that up north in Alberta (Beaverlodge?) they did a study where they placed virgin queens at 1 kilometer distances and then released a bunch of drones to see how far they may travel. This was very isolated so they were quite sure that these would be the only drones to find the queens. Apparently some of the drones showed up to the 20 kilometer mark queen.
Bad advice? Cutting queen cells to prevent swarming. Was told that early on, and it stuck till I read differently from a member of this forum. I also learned how to do a trap-out from the same feller. Not saying who he is. ;) :D
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Perry- ""Bad advice? Cutting queen cells to prevent swarming. Was told that early on, and it stuck till I read differently from a member of this forum. I also learned how to do a trap-out from the same feller. Not saying who he is.""
Not Fair Perry! This is a place of learning not guessing..... hmmmm, who could that feller be? the mystery is killin' me... :D
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Worst advice I received starting out was: "Put your hives in the shade, you'll be glad you did when August rolls around."
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Kill swarm cells
Trap outs don't work
Figured the first out for myself, Studied under the same professor as Perry for the second. Jim
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See I don't think that's bad advice to put bees where they will have some shade in the afternoon. My bees get full sun up to about 3:00pm and then they get dappled sunlight. What's the big deal about some shade?
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See I don't think that's bad advice to put bees where they will have some shade in the afternoon. My bees get full sun up to about 3:00pm and then they get dappled sunlight. What's the big deal about some shade?
SHB loves shade. When they came on the scene it changed the thought of having some shade for the hives
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"Shade" is open to interpretation. The number of interprations equals the number of people interpreting it.
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"Shade" is open to interpretation. The number of interprations equals the number of people interpreting it.
And shady characters, too. ;D
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Ooooh Okay, makes sense then, I haven't spotted the hive beetle yet, knock on my head :)
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In one outyard i had one hive that was in the shad most of the day, it was the meanest hive i had, a SHB wouldn't make it through the front door ;D. It even run my old mentor( Howard) off a couple of times, Howard said if we move it out of the shad into the sunlight it won't be that mean. We did and we never had anymore trouble with it being mean?? Jack
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Jack, I have noticed nicer bees since moving all of them in the full sun.
As for bad advice, I was lucky to have a ton of folks in this form as a plumb line and didn't get sucked into to any crud-ola out on the interweb.
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I'll second that ;D
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This will start a fight ;D, but the bad advice i had was how great and easy plastic foundation was to use :o. I bought several sheets of it and still have some that i try to get hives to draw out and have tried everything that i've read on the forum, but my bees won't touch it. It's the deep white plastic sheets that first came out, it's so bad it doesn't even burn good. :laugh: :laugh: :P Jack
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To each his own Jack, by the way how did you garden make out the last frost you had.
Ken
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Well Jack :) if you want a fight, I can give you a fight, but be warned that I'm a ruthless opponent..... except in beekeeping. I believe that beekeepers need to nurture the utmost cooperation for our bees in this world ;) 8)
Now back to the subject of plastic in the hive. Unfortunately, I have plastic left in my hives as well. My hives tell me that "Yes' the bees do prefer wood and wax. Over time, like you, I will have all plastic out of my hives. Not only that, I am on a mission to illiminate most plastic out of my own home. It's a bit of a predicament when packing lunches, but I'm working on it ~
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My two cents, for what it's worth (probably not the two-cents I'm trying to offer):
1) If it weren't for bad advice, how would we learn or know what "good" advice is?
2) I've most definitely declared this to bee the bee forum for me, until I get kicked out... Then I'll just peer in the windows :-[. But this particular forum was just formed in December 2013. We haven't even been through an entire bee season... How would you know you haven't received any bad advice here yet?
With as much information as I'm soaking in here, I, personally, recommend taking it all in with a grain of salt... Err on the side of caution... But, then again, I feel I'm pretty good at weeding through the trash (which I really haven't found here).
My thoughts are a little scattered... But my point is, as many people have said here, learn what works for YOU and YOUR bees.
Sorry, I have a tendency to play "Devil's Advocate">. ;D
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Jeff- ""Sorry, I have a tendency to play "Devil's Advocate">.""
Not any more than me my friend, how do you think I made the 2,000 posts in less than 6 months. I ask A LOT of questions, and question A LOT of posts. The reason why I still play on this playground IS because the last three years I was steered in so many wrong ways, and didn't have anyone close to help me.
Through watching and listening on this forum, I have witnessed that the only way you get kicked off is if you're being disrespectful and inconsiderate, Iddee, the admins, and mods, will just not stand for it.
I Love This Forum ;) 8)
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This will start a fight ;D, but the bad advice i had was how great and easy plastic foundation was to use :o. .. Jack
It should not start a fight. It should start folks questioning why plastic foundation (or plastic frames) does not work at all for some, works very well for some and many folks are in between. One local beek loves the stuff, another local guy doesn't like it (plastic frames) because it flexs when handled and another local fellow cannot get bees to draw it out but there is no apparent reason for the differences.
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But this particular forum was just formed in December 2013. We haven't even been through an entire bee season... How would you know you haven't received any bad advice here yet?
Just addressing this one question...
I think if you ever see anyone hand out advice that is outright wrong, there will be a plethora of people who will step in and question that advice.
Most, if not ALL of the experienced beekeepers who hang out here have quite a few years of beekeeping behind them, so "NEW" is a matter of perspective. There is likely hundreds of years in combined experience at your fingertips right here.
The bonus, is that if someone DOES give out bad advice, they too will learn from the responses, WITHOUT being flamed. Hard to find that combination anywhere.
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Ditto Dennis and Scott :)
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This will start a fight ;D, but the bad advice i had was how great and easy plastic foundation was to use :o. .. Jack
It should not start a fight. It should start folks questioning why plastic foundation (or plastic frames) does not work at all for some, works very well for some and many folks are in between. One local beek loves the stuff, another local guy doesn't like it (plastic frames) because it flexs when handled and another local fellow cannot get bees to draw it out but there is no apparent reason for the differences.
Plastic is all I've ever used. It seems to me that if that's all there is in the hive, the bees have no choice but to use it. Perhaps they would use a different material better. But they're going to do what they have to to survive.
Although my screen name doesn't contain lazy, I am. I like taking frames out of the box and putting them in the hive. Some people like building things out of wood. Wood frame option is good for them.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't see a right or wrong, only different opinions. :)
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I don't see a right or wrong, only different opinions. :)
I think good or bad advice is not so much a matter of correct or incorrect information as it is either incomplete information or information that does not, or may not, apply under the advisee's circumstances.
Identifying those circumstances is sometimes challenging. There was a thread, here I think, that I commented on a bit the other day where a beek had found 75% of his colonies with loads of swarm cells. Initial advice, which was good in general, was to split them up. After several posts, it became apparent that the OP's primary objective was to make some honey and, moreover, that the main nectar flow was about to start.. Hence, splitting any more than necessary, which would be pulling one small nuc and the old queen from each colony in question, would compromise the main objective. So, there was nothing incorrect about any of the advice offered but, rather, that some of it did not fit the circumstances .... once we figured out what the circumstances were.
Shade might be another example. Putting hives in full sunlight in areas where SHB is present is good advice. However, in areas where SHB has not yet turned up, some shade for the bees might be better advice.
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:yah: :agree:
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Kebee, my garden came through that cold spell just fine, i'm guessing the ground was still warm from the few warm days we had before the frost. Just the low spots in the fields showed frost that mourning, my potato's, sweet corn, onions, and Buckwheat field, made it through just fine. Now if i can get a break from chasing swarms and working bees, maybe i can get the rest of my garden out, this has been one weird year so far. :o Jack
PS. I was jerking riverbee and perry's chain on plastic foundation ;D, guess they must agree? haven't heard a thing from them. :laugh:
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Jack- 2 months ago I was halfway thru painting my hallway. Had to take a 6 week break to chase swarms. My paint brushes are still stuck with piant and glued together HA! :D
How many swarms have you chased so far?
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Three so far Jen, it's just started here. Several of my strong hives are building lots of queen cups( nothing in them so far) on the bottom of brood frames filled with worker brood from top to bottom. I think they have something on there mind ( these are double deeps) and have been keeping a close eye on them ??? Jack
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"PS. I was jerking riverbee and perry's chain on plastic foundation ;D, guess they must agree? haven't heard a thing from them. :laugh:"
ok jack, i give, i can't stand it.......you want me to kick your butt on this now or later or any other day cuz i have time for both or all three...... :D
as far as some of the last few comments made here relative to bad advice.......
what scott said earlier, "There is likely hundreds of years in combined experience at your fingertips right here."
right on scott. maybe the forum is only months old, that really doesn't matter......the adminstrators, moderators and members are not months old in beekeeping......
some are, some aren't, but even those who are new to beekeeping have a great deal to offer all of us as well, new or old. really doesn't matter.
and what dennis said: "I think good or bad advice is not so much a matter of correct or incorrect information as it is either incomplete information or information that does not, or may not, apply under the advisee's circumstances." very true dennis. unique to their situation and what may apply or doesn't.
i see beeks here so willing and generous to help others out and 'mentor' from a distance or connect with another beek here in close proximity.
i liked what greg said "I don't see a right or wrong, only different opinions." opinions yes, i just see a forum set apart from others, with many minds, thought processes, backgrounds, knowledge and experience and although there are differences, and sometimes confusion, we all share something in common......BEES. that's what brings us together, and sharing our ways with one another and how each of us do it, and keeping an open mind. a great benefit to all.
the best advice is to listen to those who have gone before you and made the mistakes and offer their experience up. even though there are those of us who are hard heads and stubborn, doesn't matter.....got to try it for yourself anyway?.....then just come back and tell us so.....it's only fair...... :D
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RB, When you come to kick my Butt, bring a chair, you'll need it Squirt. :laugh: :laugh: Jack
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Nice post there Riv-
I've done sooo much winter reading here, and went thru a precarious scary swarmy spring... that when the other's that are now coming into their springs and yelling "HELP!" I now have information for them. I want to yell back: "Oh Man! I Know What You're Going Thru! You Have To Have A Pair Of Jammies Hanging On A Nail Next To Your Back Door, Or In Your Truck!!!
That's how you master catching 10 swarms in 6 weeks ~ It's All In The Jammies :D
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I need to amend my statement above. If someone recommends loosening the telescoping top and inner cover with a hammer, :o I would say that's bad advice. ;)
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LOL greg!!!!
i know i am really sidetrackin this thread rat, can't help it, it's jack's fault....... :D
"RB, When you come to kick my Butt, bring a chair, you'll need it Squirt. :laugh: :laugh: Jack"
jack, i don't need no stinking chair...... :D
and jen, what you have shared in your posts helps others.....thanks for being here.....uhhhh, jammies and all............!
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Then of course, there is advice that can be misinterpreted. Like
It's All In The Jammies
. Now I am thinking, jammies? What do jammies have to do with catching bees and why must one keep some hanging by the door. If it's jammies time, wouldn't one already have them on. So then, of course, it occurs to me that jammies are quick to get into but, if it is the middle of the day, would that not mean getting out of the jeans and top? Or do you put them on over? But still, the question what have jammies have to do with it - are they for the bees or the neighbours and then :o. Now, as River mentioned a bit back there are all the thought processes.
Then another thought, Jen, do you call your bee suit "jammies"?
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aw dennis, you missed one of jen's posts running after one of her ten swarms wearing jammies......
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Oh, okay. Was definitely baffled there for a minute.
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LOL !! Dennis ~ I was home the day I caught my first swarm and just happened to be in my jammies. The swarms came so early in the year, March, that I was not prepared AT ALL! Was actually reading on how to handle swarms, when I took a break and went into my back yard and the sky had changed color. "Holy Expetive!" Well I was in a panic cause I hadn't caught a swarm before. I was running to and from this forum getting advice. Long story short I pitched a ladder in a tall cedar tree with a 10 foot bank below, and caught my first swarm not realizing that I was still in my jammies.
Jammies Rock! :D
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I still need to have a chat with her neighbors and offer bribes to get pictures of Jen in a tree with a box wearing Jammies. ;D
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Ha! The chances of other swarms going to this same cedar tree are about 100%, pictures could definately be taken. :o
As for what kind of jammies..... I Will Never Tell ;) :-[
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i know i am really sidetrackin this thread rat, can't help it, it's jack's fault....... :D
Keeps people posting and making things interesting ;D
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Riverrat ""Keeps people posting and making things interesting""
Yes! It Does! A lot of 'interesting and curious' is what keeps us from getting Alzheiners, I'm all for that.
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I have been doing some serious queen cell killing! Demaree method the box above the super and the excluder grows them regularly. I cull to the best two, and put one frame of brood and one of the capped QC in a 4 way queen castle. I marked and moved 7 queens yesterday but my hives are getting weak, so I have now been scrapping them all. I may have missed one on an out yard because the hive seems pretty calm.
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As stated earlier, I really couldn't say that any advise that I have been given from the internet has been bad. I think most have been from well meaning people who have found a method that works for them in their area and maybe not for mine. Now if a local beek gives me some advise and it turns out bad, then that is just bad advise. Even then, though, variations in forage areas, micro climates and other things can invalidate advise from a person that lives just down the road.
I tend to think it's just like news. You really can't read 1 news story and accept it as fact. You have to read several sources, then come to your own conclusion. If I am ever lucky enough to be someone's mentor in beekeeping, I will make sure that I tell them to read a lot and find what works for them.
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I haven't tried this but it seems like bad advice, but I would like your opinion since I am being tempted to try it.
I have been seeing folks adding the second box and checker boarding the frames. They will take out every other frame from the original bottom box and put frames with only foundation in their place. Then they put the pulled frames from the bottom box and alternate them with frames of foundation in the top, or new box.
They say this will cause the bees to draw the foundation out quicker than normal, but I thought that I was supposed to keep the brood together and not separate it out.
Thoughts?
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I have never checkerboarded, but I have split the brood chamber and inserted a foundationless frame inside. They really draw it out fast and the queen begins laying right away. I have also heard of people taking 1 frame of brood and bees and putting it into a new, empty upper deep and that is supposed to encourage the bees to move up. I have not done that yet either.
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You can checkerboard the honey supers, or the lower frames outside the brood nest. Any empty going in the brood nest should be outside the last frame with brood. An empty foundation frame between two brood frames may get you queen cells. A foundationless frame in the brood nest may or may not work, I don't know.
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Iddee ""Any empty going in the brood nest should be outside the last frame with brood. An empty foundation frame between two brood frames may get you queen cells""
I've been wondering about this! I did follow some suggestions to put a frame smack in between the brood chamber in hopes of getting wax pulled and filled. Can't remember if it was pulled or just foundation. I'de better check ~ Thanks Iddee
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It works better with foundation-less, but when the brood frames are separated it takes more bees to cover the frames and regulate the temps/feed etc... so when I add empty foundation-less frames IN the brood chamber I make sure there are enough bees to cover those frames. When I do feel confident in splitting the brood chamber they do not have a wall between the frames of brood, only an empty space that needs filled with comb. They go into overdrive to fill that space.
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Brilliant! I see this scenario as a blanket coming down instead of a wall being put up!
Fist Pirate Scott ~ ;D ;D
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Bumb? No, no... PIRATE! 8)
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Whoops let me fix that ???
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Mediocre advice: To keep a swarm in a box put them in with a screened bottom board, deep full of empty frames, and a big feed jar on top, screw the entrance shut. Don't give them an opening until they are taking sugar water, after that they will stay.
Actually they need to have taken enough sugar water to get the queen a place to lay, Late afternoon I opened the swarm hive 2 bees wide and the 6 lb swarm was gone by 11 the next morning.
Or going back to Charlie B's good advice: give them food and brood and leave them alone, they won't leave brood. That has always worked actually.
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Mediocre advice: To keep a swarm in a box put them in with a screened bottom board, deep full of empty frames, and a big feed jar on top, screw the entrance shut. Don't give them an opening until they are taking sugar water, after that they will stay.
Actually they need to have taken enough sugar water to get the queen a place to lay, Late afternoon I opened the swarm hive 2 bees wide and the 6 lb swarm was gone by 11 the next morning.
Or going back to Charlie B's good advice: give them food and brood and leave them alone, they won't leave brood. That has always worked actually.
Excellent Gypsi! I like the mediocre advice followed by the correct advice! Nice touch.
Actually, I received a phone call from a novice beekeeper. He had caught a swarm, twice, but couldn't get them to stay. He was wondering what he was doing wrong. As I have never successfully caught a swarm, I referred him on to a seasoned swarm catcher. I figured admitting my lack of experience was the honorable thing to do.
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Gypsi- "6 lb swarm was gone by 11 the next morning. Or going back to Charlie B's good advice: give them food and brood and leave them alone, they won't leave brood. That has always worked actually.
Geez! a 6 pound swarm! That's a lot of swarm energy there, like trying to hold back elephant
I did all of the suggestions to hold the swarm in, screen bottom board, queen above the excluder, brood, food. Worked pretty good!
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It was a massive swarm and somewhere in a tree or someone's fascia and soffit it will make a very nice hive. The bees are a bit testy though, that's a Bee Weavers Queen in there....
They were building comb til I opened the entrance 2 bees wide. don't know how long the departure took. I did not do the queen excluder or the brood, next time I guess I will.
Especially since it got your bees to stay...
Meantime I have 2 hives for sale. Keeping 4 here and feeding and trying to prevent fighting is not working out well....