Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: addame on June 09, 2014, 12:22:46 pm
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Hi All,
One of my hives seems preparing to superside (see picture bellow).
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs27.postimg.cc%2F8r53k8ipr%2F20140531_172615.jpg&hash=b37484f948687ea0db952dc43df4299fedcfabff) (http://postimg.cc/image/8r53k8ipr/)
What to do in such a case? just let the colony sypersede or sqve the old (failing) queen and make a nuc ... that will eventually go the same path (supersede)? Will such a nuc be viable?.
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If the old queen is still laying good I would put her in a nuc for a backup.
I often see queens superseded while their still laying machines. I suspect their QMP isn't strong enough to cover the area their in.
Kept in a single box you can rob brood from them and hold them there.
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addame, how well is your queen laying? was there in anything in the cup or was it empty? how old is your queen?
i don't get excited about these, unless the queen is failing or some other malady. bees, some more than others, construct and tear down cells.
i am not a fan of supersedure cells, and even less emergency cells. the time lost, how well that larvae will be fed, etc.
woody has some good advice, if in fact she is being superseded, i would keep the old queen as a backup, but i think i'd also be inclined to cut the cell and requeen.
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addame, how well is your queen laying? was there in anything in the cup or was it empty? how old is your queen?
The queen is doing very well! The brood is in most cases very homogeneous and dense.
As suggested, I will make a small nuc using the the queen. When is the perfect time to form this nuc?
Thanks!
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Sometimes they might have both queens present at the same time. For me they generally kill her about the time the cell is capped.
My guess is your window is small and closing fast.
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"The queen is doing very well! The brood is in most cases very homogeneous and dense."
addame, is the cup empty? if so, i would leave well enough alone. i would not move a good laying queen into a nuc, and leave that hive queenless.
i am not one to mess up the mojo of a good laying queen in a productive hive just because there is one queen cup. if i know in fact that my queen is being superseded, i will either requeen or let the supersedure run it's course. i don't like to do this because of the time involved for that queen to emerge and mate and start laying.
based on your description of the current laying queen, i would wait and not create a nuc to move that queen just now. i am thinking the cup is empty?
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Like Riverbee if the cup is empty I wouldent do anything.
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I have made 3 hives with queens{all same hive} that where being superseded and they all did fine.
Just try it it's the best way to learn.
The hive I'm talking about has superseded 3 times since beginning of 2013 and all 3 times I pulled the queen and made a hive and they are doing well.
Good luck.
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If I find supersedure cells when I NEED a queen elsewhere I am certainly not above using those cells.
I do believe, that the bees have a reason for superseding. What I do not know is if their reason is valid..
Installing a package of bees, even on drawn comb means there is going to be three weeks without new bees. The population is declining so the bees take the first eggs and start supersedure cells.. Really does not mean the queen is bad.. However, if she has been laying well and they decide to supersede she may not be well mated etc.. So the circumstances dictate what I do.
I raise queens mid summer to make summer nucs and re queen a few hives.. Supersedure queens are said by some to be inferior.. Maybe. Worse than emergency queens? No. Worse than swarm queens? Yes. Those supersedure queens will start nucs and get hives on track, and if for any reason they do not appear to be doing well, I requeen them with MY queens in July. If they are going strong I dont replace them.
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fellas, just because addame has one queen cup in a hive does not equate to supercedure. if there were royal jelly in it with developing larvae and the bees were elongating the cell, than yes, or a number of cups.
if the cup is empty, i would leave it alone and keep an eye on what is going on.
"Supersedure queens are said by some to be inferior.. Maybe. Worse than emergency queens? No. Worse than swarm queens? Yes."
swarm queens are the best, they are usually very well fed, then supercedure, last emergency queens. if one opens a fully developed swarm cell, you will find that these are literally swimming in royal jelly, compare it to opening a supercedure cell or an emergency cell. lots of variables when the bees raise their own queens, time of year, flow, the health of a colony, etc.....a good queen is a well fed queen.
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Until confirmed otherwise I have to agree with Riverbee. New beekeepers will see queen cups in a hive and they think queen cells. but they are not a queen cell until there is at least an egg in it. and i would not get to excited until the egg has hatched and there is a larva that is being fed. as beekeeper we can graft larva into cell cups but they will only be excepted and well fed by the bees if they decide too. As beekeepers we need to create a condition in the hive so the bees will work the cells when we give them to the cell builders. So until the bees are working at raising a larva into a queen in the cell cup, it is just a cell cup nothing to get excited about. Don't ignore them but look inside to see if there is a well fed larva, If there is, then decisions need to be made.
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so this is just a queen cup and not a supersedure cell?
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Yesterday I checked he hive and there is no larvae on it. It is just an empty cup.
So, as some suggested, I'll wait and see what the bees will decide to do with it :-)
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thanks addame for your reply.....good choice on wait and see... keep us posted!
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Yesterday, I visited the hive again and guess what: the cell was still empty ... and there are some swarming cells (not yet capped)!
The queen is present. However, I have difficulty to find fresh eggs. The queen is of the last year but may be the matting was not that good.
Here are few options:
- let the bees rise a new queen with the already existing queen cells
- do I have to remove the old queen to prevent swarming? If so, when?
- remove the old queen, destroy the queen cells and introduce a new queen
What do you think? Do you have other suggestions?
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There is a difference between active queen cells and cell cups. Are the " swarm " cells active, are there eggs or larvae. If no they are just cups bees seem to practice building them, only to tear them down and rebuild them somewhere else. Swarm season is here, and you need to be inspecting your hives every 7 to 9 days to know whats going on.
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Some of the cells contain larvae
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"Yesterday, I visited the hive again and guess what: the cell was still empty ... and there are some swarming cells (not yet capped)!
The queen is present. However, I have difficulty to find fresh eggs. The queen is of the last year but may be the matting was not that good."
addame, the queen stops laying when the hive is preparing to swarm, has nothing to do with mating. you need to divide this hive, before those cells are capped or make a nuc using the swarm cells present if you want the nuc to raise it's own queen.
EDIT AND ADD: (oops forgot to answer your questions)
"let the bees rise a new queen with the already existing queen cells" ~ yes you can do that, swarm cells typically make good queens.
"do I have to remove the old queen to prevent swarming? If so, when?" ~ you can and some do, i don't. NOW.
"remove the old queen, destroy the queen cells and introduce a new queen " ~ Do Not destroy the old queen if she has been laying well. Utiliize the cells in a nuc or divide for them to make a queen. or introduce a new queen to the divide.
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addame, the queen stops laying when the hive is preparing to swarm, has nothing to do with mating. you need to divide this hive, before those cells are capped or make a nuc using the swarm cells present if you want the nuc to raise it's own queen.
I did not know before that the queen stops laying when the hive is preparing to swarm. So, thank you riverbee for the information and also for the suggestion!
It is very pleasant to know new things in this forum and from its valuable members :-)
This afternoon, I'll make nucs (may be one or two) using the swarm cells.
Another question: how much time it will take to the queen to start laying again?
Thanks and have a nice day/evening!
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Like riverbee said, my self i would put the queen in a nuc, make nucs with all but two queen cells and leave them in the mother hive. They won't swarm without a queen, But they may swarm with the new queen, but not likely? it's a toss of the coin.One thing for sure, you won't loose all your bees and will have more hives to worry about. :D Jack
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when the hive thinks they have swarmed. be very careful with the frames that contain the queen cells. how many cells do you have with larvae present?
happy dividing, and keep us posted.
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how many cells do you have with larvae present?
about 5 or 6.
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Thats not alot of swarm cells, for a swarming event. Maybe your blessed with not so swarmy stock, thats a good thing.
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okay thanks addame, are these 5 or 6 cells on one frame? this will help you decide how many nucs you can make out of the original hive.
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Another question: how much time it will take to the queen to start laying again?
Thanks and have a nice day/evening!
30 days from laid egg to mated and laying queen. 25 to 20 days if open larva is in the queen cells. 19 to 11 if capped cells are found and 10 days after the virgin queen emerges from her cell. Give or take, depending on weather for mating flights. Bad weather can delay mating it can also destroy the mating process and if the queen dose start to lay see will fail soon after.
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apis, i think addame was asking when the original queen would resume laying again, but good info for addame on the timeline of the new queen/s.
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Could be Riverbee so I ask why didn't you answer his question? Hard question to give an exzact time for. I have gone in after 4 days enb seen eggs and hatched brood but i have also seen hives with no eggs yet. Generaly 2 or 3 days. It doae take another week or so to build up to full production.
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addame asked about the original queen apis, i did answer, like you no exact time.....
please go back and read addame's post, #15 from this morning.
my answer post #18.
addame's reply #19.
jack's post # 20.
my reply #21. "when the hive thinks they have swarmed" that was my exact time, and i would not disagree with your last reply, too many variables.
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Indeed, Variables.... ;D
I typically do as Jack stated. I move the old queen to a nuc and let her start fresh.. About 20% of the time they will supersede the old queen once she is laying well.. I have been led to believe this is normal activity. A colony that swarms in the wild often replaces the queen not long after swarming. I have found two or more queens in a colony I artificially swarmed.
I leave two swarm cells in the main hive, and put two swarm cells in each nuc I make from that hive. Some only put one cell in the nuc's. I have had better luck getting viable colonies using two swarm cells per nuc, but your results may vary.
There is nothing wrong with any method mentioned. It all comes down to the individual beekeeper and what works best for them. Read everyone's opinion/method then decide what you think will work best for you!
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"There is nothing wrong with any method mentioned. It all comes down to the individual beekeeper and what works best for them. Read everyone's opinion/method then decide what you think will work best for you! "
absolutely scott, i have found what works best for me, i don't move queens, and i guess how i learned, is to leave the original queen in the hive, especially if she's a strong layer and the hive is a strong hive, the divide is light so i wind up with a good laying queen who picks up where she left off, divert swarming and makes a honey crop. i don't leave any cells in the main hive, these are moved to nucs/divides.
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Hi all,
I finally had a chance to visit the hive. Almost all the queen cells (5-6) were on the same frame and they are not caped (just with larvae) and one with an egg. There are other queen cells on two other frames but they are under construction.
I have formed a nuc using three frames from this hive (one with the queen cells).
What I have noted that there are a lot of drone brood and I have also the chance to find the queen.
I'm planning to visit the hive again in 2 to 3 days to see if the queen is restarting laying again.
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one thing I forgot to mention last time: last time I have seen a lot (really a lot) of drone brood (capped and not capped). Is it normal?
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It can be, are the drone that are capped in the larger drone size cells or are they in worker size cells. the population of drones is in part regulated by how many cells that are drone size where the queen has access to lay.
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It can be, are the drone that are capped in the larger drone size cells or are they in worker size cells.
They are in worker size cells.
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OK caped drones in worker size cells is not a queen genetic thing as if it was they would get eaten before they were allowed to mature as larva. So it is a laying worker or when the queen lays an egg in the cell she is not dropping a fertilized egg. This is some times seen when a queen gets old and is running out of seamen, or a queen that doesn't get mated because of poor weather and gets very little seamen and runs out quickly. Or could be a development issue with the queen.
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Hi apisbees,
I have noted today that the queen is still laying eggs in few queen cells. So I also think that it is a worker that is laying those eggs.
Here is the operation I have done today: I put the old queen with two frames in a new nuc (it is her last chance :-) ), and then I placed in the old hive capped queen cells.
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I'm not quite as sentimental as some around here and will pop of a queen if she looks at me cross eyed. But it is a good learning experience. So watch her blossom in to a wonderful queen or to watch fail miserably, either way you will learn from this experiance.