Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => Beekeeping 101 => Topic started by: CpnObvious on June 14, 2014, 09:31:08 am
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Tuesday night I added a second deep to hive one. They had been going through syrup rather quickly the precious few days. When I added the second deep I added more syrup to the top feeder. They haven't touched it since. Should I remove the feeder when I do my inspections today? When I say "haven't touched", I mean I haven't seen a single bee up there since.
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The mood may strike them yet. I'd say keep the feed on there until they have at least drawn out a few frames in the top deep. It takes a lot of energy to make wax. I give up on feeding if they don't touch it for two weeks. If there is a good flow on they prefer that to syrup.
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capn, the bees don't utilize space until they need it. you just installed these bees on May 25 from packages? i am wondering if it was too soon for a 2nd deep? are all the frames drawn in deep 1 and were the bees close to running out of room? is your 2nd deep all foundation?
if your 2nd deep is foundation, the syrup will help to get them to draw it out.
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If your second deep is all foundation, you can pull some of the frames from the bottom deep into the top deep, and move the foundation frames you pulled down into the bottom deep. That will encourage them to move into the top deep (they won't abandon brood).
Also, if you have any honey b healthy, you could put a little into your syrup to encourage feeding.
I put a jar of syrup into the swarm I captured the other day, and they've not touched it. But it may be because of the flow. But it's there if they want it.
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If your second deep is all foundation, you can pull some of the frames from the bottom deep into the top deep, and move the foundation frames you pulled down into the bottom deep. That will encourage them to move into the top deep (they won't abandon brood).
Baiting the second deep would be a good idea. :yes:
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After today's inspection, I removed the second deep I put on the first hive. It seemed they had been progressing exceptionally fast... up until this past week. I figured I would need to add a second deep around week 4 or 5. I was dumbfounded that it seemed they needed it this early. Well, they don't. I jumped the gun.
I'll be updating my Journey posting shortly. I have questions, if you can believe that!
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I follow the Rule of 7. When 7 frames have been drawn out, then I add the 2nd brood box. Same works for honey supers.
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Baker- "I follow the Rule of 7. When 7 frames have been drawn out, then I add the 2nd brood box. Same works for honey supers.
Funny, I was just thinking "If I had a simple rule to follow..." Perfect! Thanks Baker ;) 8)
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Baker are you running an 8 frame or a ten frame? This will give us newbies a better idea of bee space for our hive types.
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I have a question about feeding. I put a second deep onto my hive which I bought in June about a month ago because the first deep was full and needed the space. I switched two frames from the bottom near outer and put them in the middle of the top deep and two new foundation frames in the bottom deep. I just made a hive inspection. They are making a lot of wax in the top deep on two new foundation frames. still about 4or 5 with nothing on them. should I be feeding them sugar water? We only have new foundation because this is our first hive.
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I would think there is no need to feed any longer. Here in NS there is a good flow on right now.
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I have not fed them yet. They have been bringing in pollen regularly since I got them. Some articles I have read suggest feeding them to give them energy to make wax. I would prefer they forage for their own food until fall. I think there is still a lot of food out there for them.
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When a hive is building (like a swarm I caught recently), I feed them. If they want it, they'll take it, and if they don't, they won't. When they're drawing comb, they need a lot of help.
Just my $0.02. :eusa_doh:
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"I have a question about feeding. I put a second deep onto my hive which I bought in June about a month ago because the first deep was full and needed the space. I switched two frames from the bottom near outer and put them in the middle of the top deep and two new foundation frames in the bottom deep. I just made a hive inspection. They are making a lot of wax in the top deep on two new foundation frames. still about 4or 5 with nothing on them. should I be feeding them sugar water? We only have new foundation because this is our first hive..........I have not fed them yet. They have been bringing in pollen regularly since I got them. Some articles I have read suggest feeding them to give them energy to make wax. I would prefer they forage for their own food until fall. I think there is still a lot of food out there for them."
what slow said, feed, feed feed until that foundation is drawn. it is july , august coming soon, fall months and winter......that new hive has a long ways to go to get that foundation drawn and filled to overwinter. pollen is not sufficient means for the bees to draw comb or sustain them, they need both, nectar and pollen, even if the nectar is syrup. they need nectar/syrup and lots of young bees to draw comb. you prefer that they forage for their own until fall......well they do, but if there is nothing or little for them to forage on? they will starve or not be a strong colony going into winter months and then starve later. if you think that foraging on their own is going to get them there, it might not. flows are inconsistent. you want to be sure they draw the comb and fill it, especially this time of the year. my suggestion and two cents is to feed.....
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I am going to agree with both Perry and SlowModem..
If you have a decent flow, which you "should" right now... (No guarantees) you may not need to feed as Perry said, but Like SLow said.. if they need it they have it..
I was having issues with my bees backfilling the brood nest with syrup. Turns out I was feeding too fast.. Iddee suggested I use less holes in the feed lids. I gave it a try, and WOW it made a difference.. They take the syrup a lot slower, and build comb faster..
So, if you feed, restrict it a little and keep an eye on where they are storing. Feeding fast is for the fall when you WANT them to store it. Feeding slow is for when you want to make sure they have what they NEED.
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give them some feed, don't depend on any flow for them to draw foundation this time of year. how many frames of foundation are undrawn marion?
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4 frames in the second deep are not drawn.
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okay, what position are the undrawn frames in?
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Hi Riverbee, the unworked frames are 3 on one side and 1 on the other. In the middle I have 2 frames I pulled up from the outside edges of the lower deep. There is capped brood on them and honey around the edges. On each side of these middle 2 are two new frames that have been covered on both sides with wax. They do not look capped.
I took your advice and put a pint of 1:1 sugar water inside of an empty super. This actually provided more ventilation and a second door for the bees. Before the top cover blocked it.
I have included a picture of the hive. I think everything is going well. I have recently read that the two bottom supers need to be full for the winter and probably most of a super for winter survivial.
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marion, i have learned from experience that it is always best to feed a new colony of bees light syrup when starting them on foundation, i don't pull the feed until all the frames are drawn, and as i said, i don't rely on nectar flows. feeding syrup will help them in many ways, but you also need to manage this.
randy oliiver has some good advice on feeding syrup to bees:
Fat Bees-Part 3 Scientific Beekeeping (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-3/)
scroll down past the protein feeding and start reading where he writes:
"I’ll be happy to discuss the science and biology of feeding syrup, and tips for the hobbyist and sideline beekeeper. Other than specialty applications, there are three main reasons for feeding:"
also, at the very bottom of the article he discusses methods of feeding and mentions the 'trickle feed' as iddee and scott have mentioned doing.
"For the hobbyist, I suggest feeding with inverted quart to gallon jars (a quart a day is plenty) with a few holes punched in the center of the lid (hole size is not critical, but by using only a few small holes you help to regulate the feeding rate). Then make a simple dedicated feeder lid out of scrap wood, with a hole in the center smaller than your feeder jar lid (but larger than your hole pattern). Set your nice hive cover to the side, and temporarily use the board with the hole through it while you’re feeding. The only time that a hobbyist may have to feed when he/she is starting a colony on foundation."
in another article Fat Bees-Part 2 (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-2/), and i will just quote him, i believe this to be true about drawing foundation and also giving them a boost, or a little help with efforts spent to draw the comb:
"First, a hobby beekeeper may never need to feed a colony. The only time that many hobby beekeepers will ever need to feed is when they are helping the bees draw out the combs of foundation in the broodnest for the first time".............."Sugar syrup can be an important tool in bee management, but don’t expect it to do more than it can. That said, sugar syrup can give a lot of bang for the buck. It’s cheaper than honey, and stimulative feeding of light syrup not only changes their behavior, but can save the bees an incredible amount of effort in foraging for nectar, thus allowing them to focus their energies on other tasks—such as comb building, pollen foraging, or keeping the cluster warm."
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(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs13.postimg.cc%2F6r69pww9f%2F8_frame_bee_hive_2014.jpg&hash=14c0851c9d2b955ad18ecdabf2d28de1ba3793ce) (http://postimg.cc/image/6r69pww9f/)
hey Riverbee, the picture did not upload the first time. Here it is.
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For some reason my picture did not post so I am trying again.
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marion, your pix uploaded, i helped a little and turned them clockwise....... ;)
you have 2 deeps on......the 3rd box does not look like a regular deep? looks shorter? and then you have a medium super on with what underneath of that? not sure, so asking....
ps love the pink!
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From the bottom up, 2 deeps, then a medium, an inner cover, then an empty medium to house the sugar water. Thanks for turning my picture around. We have been calling the mediums our supers. I found the "fat bees" articles interesting. I think the blue and orange line graph for feeding bees is beneficial. I wish it was made for New England. It looks like it follows a similar trend for bee's needs in this area, though.
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(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1056.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft373%2Friverbee1%2FEmoticons%2FDoh_zpsa0620492.gif&hash=220957ba76e8973a5e3db955cc836a784b363006)......oh doh on me! (the medium super). :)
randy oliver has a great deal of good information on his website. you are welcome on the pic, if you need help in the future, just send one of us a pm and we will be happy to help out!
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OK, so if the top deep is not drawn out yet, why is there a super on the hive?
Not being critical at all, but I try to wait until the top box is nearly drawn.. 7 out of ten frames finished, preferably with a good start on two of those unfinished frames. Just wondering what the plan is!
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I really did not know when to put on the medium. Ward wanted to put on a super so I figured it would not hurt anything. If they needed it they would use it. Nothing is happening in it.
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I would not be feeding if you intend to call anything in that lower medium honey.
Rule #1 when feeding = don't have honey supers on your hives cause you're not collecting nectar to make honey, you're collecting sugar water. ;)
PS - I love the avatar!
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Some people say feed others say don't feed. Riverbee thought I should feed them just a little (3 tiny holes in the lid) because they are building up wax on new foundation. I am new at this and all I want is for the bees to have enough to survive a Massachusetts winter. They are still filling out the second deep. If they do any work in the medium it is for them.
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okay guys, marion and ward, from earlier posts have 4 frames of foundation left to be drawn in the 2nd deep. they asked if they should feed, some said no, i said yes FEED to draw foundation.
marion added the feed, and i would guess the 1st medium super of foundation, and feed on top of that to draw all the foundation. marion, is the medium super all foundation? beeswax or plastic?
it doesn't really matter, what scott is saying is until the foundation is drawn in the 2nd deep, adding a super is not really necessary, and they will ignore it until they need the space. they have a ways to go yet in that 2nd deep. keep feeding until the foundation is drawn in the 2nd deep. it won't hurt adding that super, but what they might and will do is strip the wax from the foundation. so i would pull this super off for now until they are ready for it. if and when they are ready for a medium super of undrawn foundation, i would feed until the foundation is drawn, and then pull the feed.
hope this is not too confusing for you marion.....ask away!
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"Some people say feed others say don't feed. Riverbee thought I should feed them just a little (3 tiny holes in the lid) because they are building up wax on new foundation. I am new at this and all I want is for the bees to have enough to survive a Massachusetts winter. They are still filling out the second deep. If they do any work in the medium it is for them. "
marion you posted as i was posting. i will say this and i will stand by it......FEED THEM until the foundation is drawn in that 2nd deep, and you may need to feed them a heavier sugar syrup to get them ready for winter months. if by chance they draw and fill the second deep, and if by chance they do draw and fill the medium super, (and i would feed them to draw the super), YES this can be left on for their consumption. you are thinking ahead!
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Agreed.
If the super will be left on for them it will not matter if they store some syrup in it as they draw the combs. Mark the frames on that super, so if they have any left in it next year you know not to extract it.
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Will they cap syrup?
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yes they will jen....
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Yes the foundation is wax not plastic. I thought the medium super should not go on until more frames were filled in the second deep. This is basically Ward's project and I am trying to help him with it and he wanted to put it on. I am getting just as interested as he is in doing the right thing for our bees.
When the second deep is filled and they start to draw wax on the frames in the medium super aren't they still going to need to be fed slowly to make the wax on them? I do not have any other frames that already have been drawn except the ones in the bottom deep.
It doesn't look like they are very interested in the sugar water anyway. It is at a very slow drip. A pint will last a long time at he rate they are eating it.
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When the second deep is filled and they start to draw wax on the frames in the medium super aren't they still going to need to be fed slowly to make the wax on them? I do not have any other frames that already have been drawn except the ones in the bottom deep.
Yes.. as Mrs. River said.. Keep feeding to get all of the frames mostly drawn.
If there is a good flow on they will not be very interested in the syrup, it is there just in case they need it. It's really hard to tell when the flow begins to dry up. The increased intake of syrup is usually a pretty good indicator.
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My Hive 1 (the one I'm constantly concerned with) was initially not taking any feed... so I had stopped, hence this thread starting. They are now taking it rather quickly. My other two hives suck it down like it's going out of style. Hive #2&3 are doing phenomenally well. They just can't seem to get enough. My plan is to feed until the two deeps are drawn. At this rate, that will still bee a while :(
On another note. I am using jars within another super around them. What I am doing, though, is a little different than what I think many of you folks are recommending... I'll share what I've learned and why I do it "my" way.
I have the jars sitting on spaces above the hole in my inner cover. This does give the bees free range of an entire empty super, but they are busy building on the foundation below, so they do not build any comb whatsoever in the empty super. The reason I do it this was, as opposed to setting the jars over the hole in the inner cover, thus preventing them from having access to the wide open space, is because they keep the space free of other insects. When I first started feeding them this way, I did as others have suggested. This led to ants and other insects trying to make up home in there. With the bees having full reign up there, I don't have a single bug issue. The bees do a good job at keeping them out.
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You are absolutely correct about keeping the bugs out. What you are doing will work fine. Just be sure to keep your camera handy. It's been about 5 years since I have seen a jar embedded in a deep full of natural honey. :o :'( :'( :laugh:
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I peer into the cover FAR too often for this to ever bee a problem. Though, I would like to see someone else's picture of an encased jar...
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The last one I saw was a breeder who set up about 30 nucs with queen cells to emerge and mate. They all had a jar on the top of the frames and an empty nuc surrounding them. He remembered to check and tend about 29. He found the other a month or so later and it was ready for harvest. :D
Maybe with just one, you won't lose track of it.
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It is August 1st. Should I be giving them a pollen patty or part of one along with the slow drip of sugar water?
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Check all frames for pollen. If the total will make 1 full frame of pollen or more, no sub is needed.
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When they decide to do it, you will be astounded by how much they can draw out in that super between inspections.. Even if you inspect once a week..
No, it is not really a problem to scrape it out and clean up the mess if and when they do decide to make use of that space, but having them build all that new comb in frames is much preferred..
I have no arguments about doing it that way at all, but did learn the hard way to use the 4 jar stands over the inner cover hole, or put one jar in the hole in the inner cover.
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"I'll share what I've learned and why I do it "my" way."
............. :D
aw yep what iddee and lazy said, let us know when the bees do it THEIR way............ :D