Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => Swarms, Cut Outs, Trap Outs and Bee Trees => Topic started by: tbonekel on June 15, 2014, 03:18:18 pm
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This may be long, so I will say I'm sorry now.
I did my first "official" cut out last week. I call it official, not because I charged the client, because I'm not going to. I'm calling it official because it was my first real cutout for somebody I didn't know. I get the feeling that most people on this forum that do cutouts have some substantial experience at it. At least enough that they can do it without really thinking too much about what goes into it. Therefore, I hope, that by telling my experience and what I have learned, it will help other new beekeepers prepare for doing a cutout and what might happen. Up until last week, everything that I knew about cutouts, I have learned from this forum and youtube. Honestly, there are not very many, if any people that post videos about total and complete failures. Who would? But I'm here to tell you that it does happen. And I bet several of you can tell some good stories about some cutouts that you have done that didn't quite go as planned. But first of all let me show you a picture of my first experience.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs16.postimg.cc%2Fv9b3brwr5%2F2014_06_07_12_16_38.jpg&hash=b2895291379616269ce8f87b110e0fe26e7ddd82) (http://postimg.cc/image/v9b3brwr5/)
This was the way I found the hive. The owners of this building had already pulled away some of the boards and had attempted multiple times to kill the bees by using various methods, but with no success. I could see comb and thought that it probably wouldn't be too difficult. The opening was about two feet from the ground and was in the shade. Not bad, right? My first realization being a newbie of course was that I forgot anything to actually cut with. You would think that doing a cutout might require some cutting.
Rule number 1: Be prepared and take more than you need to the job.
After I went home (40 minute round trip) and got the necessary tools, I was back at the site and proceeded to cut away ending up with this.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs12.postimg.cc%2F3vjpoayg9%2F2014_06_07_13_47_34.jpg&hash=4f0872ba4f1dd56c1fa1e87ff279d1367361b135) (http://postimg.cc/image/3vjpoayg9/)
At this point, other than forgetting my cutting tools, everything was going as planned and the bees were pretty cordial and friendly. Then I brought out my brand spankin' new DIY bee vac. This is the design you have all seen, I'm sure, utilizing the bucket vac that you can purchase at the orange or blue stores on top of a bucket and then cutting a hole in the side with some screen and being able to close a portion of that hole to get the right suction. In theory, it works, and in reality, it does, but let me give you people a little information I didn't see in any video. As you suck bees into the vac, it appears that everything is going pretty well. What happens though is that if you turn the vacuum off as you are working, several flying bees may decide to fly to the outside of the bucket and land on the screen possibly wanting to be with their buddies inside. When you turn the vacuum back on, these bees get sucked to the screen, changing the amount of suction you will get. That's not a good thing. The only other thing that I will say about the DIY bucket vac is that you need to empty the bucket frequently. You may already know this, but at the time, I wasn't sure about the limit of bees in the bucket, so therefore, I didn't. So fast forward to when I decided that it was time to dump. You can't imagine the carnage. It was terrible. I dumped thousands of dead bees into the hive, then I had to clean them out as best I could. It was really terrible.
Rule number 2: Empty your DIY bucket vac often.
The actual cutting out process went pretty much as I have seen and read about. One thing that I wish that I had was a knife that has a 45 degree angle on the end of the blade. It would have been nice to put the knife at the bottom of the comb and then run it up the wall, cutting the comb clean. But as it was, the straight blade made it difficult to cut the comb cleanly at the wall.
The other thing that really needs to be known is that this is not an easy job. Mine was two feet from the ground and easy to get to. But don't be fooled. You are in a bent over or crouched position for 4 to 5 hours. My legs and back were sore for 3 solid days after that. It didn't help being out of shape on top of that. And after that long, I was tired. I don't mean like a long day at work. I mean like I just had a long day at work, then went out to haul hay like I did when I was a teenager then played linebacker in an NFL pro football game. I mean that kind of tire. So much so that I went home and told my wife that I probably had done my first and last cutout. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I feel better now and might do another one, but I'm not so sure.
Here is my biggest rule: For a newbie, if at all possible, do a few cutouts with someone that has experience before trying one yourself. You will understand what is involved and have a much better chance at success then failing from the beginning.
I guess when it all comes down to it, I view it as a failure because I killed a ton of bees and a the rest probably won't make it. I didn't find the queen either. I may have actually killed her. But to the owners, it's a success, because I got rid of the bees. It's all a matter of perspective.
Sorry again for the length of this. I just needed to explain this and maybe help someone that is new to this amazing world of bees make good and informed decisions.
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Okay, I see that I'm going to have to get my beverage of choice and sit down to read this :D which is Cool because I may be participating in a cut out myself. My first thoughts of doing my first cut out was EXCITMENT!, then Uncertainty, then Curiosity, then EXCITMENT! then Doubt .... Then your post came up and now I'm Happy! ;D
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Tbone, Thanks for your candid and detailed report. A lot of lessons for all of us to learn.
Last month I was called to remove a hive from a building. I cased the job and told them that I couldn't/wouldn't do it on their terms (the question of money didn't even come up).
Bottom line: As much as it hurt me to say it, I told them to spray the hive and get over with it. I didn't go back to see what they did and how it worked out. I wonder if it went smoothely. :-\
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What you describe in your great thread tbone is real life, right there.
If many of us were to be honest and describe some of the awful stuff that happens, it might help those that follow. For that you have my thanks for your descriptive post.
:thread:
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Thanks tbonekel, from what you describe I know that I could not do one, would sure wear me out, now a swarm I will try if not to high up in a tree.
Ken
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Yep, to do a big cutout, you either have to be tough or dumb. I always wished i could have gotten tough.
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:D Iddee
I may have a chance to get dumb here pretty soon. I may have to consider being tough ;) 8)
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Glad you got through it with all your fingers Tbone. Its good to have friends along while doing a cutout, several of them. Especially if you are old like me. ;)
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tbone......
great post, no...awesome post......thank you and thanks for sharing it. some good advise to others who are new to doing cut outs from your own experience.
"I guess when it all comes down to it, I view it as a failure because I killed a ton of bees and a the rest probably won't make it. I didn't find the queen either. I may have actually killed her. But to the owners, it's a success, because I got rid of the bees. It's all a matter of perspective."
not a failure tbone......a great learning experience, and really it is all a matter of perspective. you probably felt badly, or felt as if you had failed.....but you know what.....you didn't.....
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Great post, great learning experience, and by sharing a truthful account a great teaching lesson to all on the thread and any guests who read it. Thanks for sharing and helping us all learn.
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Really good post!
I dont know anyone that does cut outs that hasnt killed a lot of bees before they got the system down to a science, myself included. I had too much suction and not enough ventilation.
Having the gear you need when you need it is important, especially if the "cut out" is 30 miles from home... It took me a couple cut outs before I just started bringing "everything" with me.
I load up the horse trailer and bring it all, that way I am not caught without something I need.
Dont forget rubber bands.. done that a couple times and had to use string.. I also have a couple Muck Buckets that I fit contractor bags into. The bucket keeps the bag open, and supports the heavy comb with honey nectar and brood, as well as keeping it all contained. no drips or mess.
A 5 gallon bucket of water.. Honey is sticky and gets everywhere... you need a way to wash off yourself, your tools, and water to wipe the area you are working in down..
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs27.postimg.cc%2Firnr6dg0v%2FDSCF0513.jpg&hash=16ea7a27f89454d7d42f0a3e1c78edeba12b05fc) (http://postimg.cc/image/irnr6dg0v/)
Another cause for concern for those of you who do not charge to do cut outs...
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs22.postimg.cc%2F8e3bxyygd%2FDSCF0521.jpg&hash=57115ddd7ce5be404672121ed25f72052d83699c) (http://postimg.cc/image/8e3bxyygd/)
Taking the time to open the wall, finding BUCKETS of old comb with a dozen bees on it.. No brood, no honey, no queen. I get my money for doing the job. If you are just doing it for the bees, a job like this would be a complete loss to you, so be careful about doing it for free.
As Stated.. minimum 4 - 5 hours of work, depending on where it is and how hard it is to get to. For a first cut out I would plan a full day, and try to pick an easy one. Going up and down a ladder all day is really hard on my knees. Having a Minion cant be overlooked or over stated as a huge bonus.
Great post Tbone, and great insight.
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Thanks Lazy and everyone else for some really good inspirational words! That's another reason I love being a part of this family. It's amazing what a difference a week makes after something like this. I feel better about the whole situation and will probably do another one if asked. I don't think I'm going to advertise though. It's hard to find the time for something like this. Lazy, you said a bucket of water. I did have that and you know, I might just put that item right underneath a smoker as one of the necessary tools of a cutout. One thing these bees had is honey and a lot of it. I was pulling sections of comb from this wall that was capped and 3 inches thick in some cases. And this was brand new stuff and VERY delicate.
I think another thing that would have made this job better would have been the organization of the tools around me. I was continually crouching, then cutting, then getting up and walking to a bucket or box or.... It would have been MUCH easier if I had had most of my stuff at arms reach. That also would have shortened the time. I know that in some cases, especially involving ladders, that cannot be done, but in this case, I could have made that happen and it would have helped.
The other thing that I struggled with as a new cutout person, was the decision process of what comb goes where. Some choices are obvious. As much brood as you can get in a cut goes in a box. Honeycomb goes in a bucket for processing later. But there is also a lot of comb that you need to make a decision with. I guess for most, it's not that hard. If it's not brood, pollen or honey, trash it. That is a difficult decision for new beekeepers to make because starting out with new hives, comb is a pretty valuable thing to have and it is difficult just to throw it away, even though, in your mind, you realize that it's not really something for the bees to use. That may be more difficult for me individually because I am my father's son, and he really doesn't get rid of anything. We aren't hoarders, but throwing something away is like losing an appendage.
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tbone! my veil is off to you for making the effort to 'Try' ~ 'Give it a shot'
I have learned a lot on this thread, and have an opportunity to do a cut out with a fellow beek. If I decide to do it, I have some great instruction from this thread to help my friend and I thru. I am 'eh hem' older than he is and have to always take note on how long I am standing and sitting and bending and crouching. I know I will have to take a couple of patio chairs for breaks.
#1 - If we bring home combed honey, the only way to process that would be crush and drain?
#2 - "As much brood as you can get in a cut goes in a box" You mean a hive box with foundationless frames for inserting brood secured with rubber bands?
#3 - "That is a difficult decision for new beekeepers to make because starting out with new hives, comb is a pretty valuable thing to have and it is difficult just to throw it away, even though, in your mind, you realize that it's not really something for the bees to use. That may be more difficult for me individually because I am my father's son, and he really doesn't get rid of anything. We aren't hoarders, but throwing something away is like losing an appendage."
For me that would be a waste as well to throw away comb. Depending on how the comb is retrieved I would save it, insert it with rubberbands and freeze it for the next time I need pulled comb. I learned this during my swarming episode... in that it would have been so much nicer to have pulled comb ready for the swarm bees instead of bare foundation. Also, I am collecting unused comb for eventual candle making :)
Brain Storming ~
Have a good meal and take a good pain pill before heading out ;D
I would take a portable table for the arrangements of tools.
I really like Scott's idea of planning a whole day to do a cut out. Take your time, think clearly along the way, take breaks.
How do you determine a price for a cut out?
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Thanks for sharing your experience! I, too, am curious about how you figure pricing.
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The Barn cut out I did on the video looked pretty straight forward. The Oak boards on the floor of this barn were screwed down, and easy to "unscrew" to lift out without damage. I had no ladder to climb etc.. For an old mechanic with beat up knees sometimes a ladder is better than kneeling all day, but in this case there was plenty of room, easy access, and power, so I did not need my generator. What i could see of the hive was large, so even if I did not get a queen I knew they would have the ability to make one. They had NOT been sprayed or fussed with, and Mrs. Kay was one of those people that was easy to get along with and very accommodating.
I want the feral bees pretty bad, so I charged $150.00 paid for my gas and paid my daughter for her help with a wee little left over for me. Mrs. Kay was so happy she gave me $50.00 extra. That does happen occasionally when you cut out for good people.
Cutting bees out of an eave I would have charged more. There are so many situations that its just not possible to give a standard price.
Depending on the equipment you need, and the WORK involved I have charged as much as $550.00 for a cut out in the past. In reference, that price was about $600.00 cheaper than anyone else had quoted them. That cut out took about ten hours, required my generator and I worked from scaffolding.. but it was STILL only "ONE" days work.. AND, I got some really good bees as a bonus.
Make no mistake.. doing a cut out is WORK. It is sticky, messy, and requires you to have the equipment to do it. Equipment YOU have to pay for.. I didn't make much from Mrs. Kay's bees by the time I figured in the time and equipment, as well as travel and paying a minion.. But, You can still Price a cut out so that you make money, beat the closest competitor by a landslide, and make it worth your while.
I don't need to send my kids to college with the price of a single cut out, but I do want to make money doing it.
Look at the job.. Talk to the owner.. Be up front and straight. Decide what it will take to make it worth YOUR while to do it, and stick to your price. If you priced Honestly don't feel guilty if they are upset. Remember that they have no idea what you are about to go through. Walk away if you need to.
Yep, I DO want those bees, but I wont work ten hours on a scaffolding with my generator running to power my Bee Vac for "free" bees.
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Good read there Scott :) Thanks!
I have an opportunity to do a cut out in a garage wall for a friend. I'll first take hubby over and make a decision on how to get into the wall, and if I would be able to handle the job. Hubby won't want to get into beekkeeping that deep I'm sure, but I have a fellow beek that would be willing to help I'm sure. If hubs is willing to take a gander at this cut out I'll take pics first and post for ideas.
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If I keep doing cutouts, I will charge once I feel that I can do a good and complete job, guaranteed. Right now, I am upfront with the client. I tell them that I am inexperienced relatively speaking. I tell them I know what I am doing, but am slow and still learning and they need to be comfortable with me doing the job. I know it sounds like I've done several of these, but I've only done one "structure" cutout. I did a bee tree cutout last month and last year I did a trap out. All of these have been for people I didn't know and I wanted them to understand that it's a learning process. So far, everyone has been understanding and appreciative of my honesty. Now as to when I start charging, that will depend on the next situation, when and if it occurs. Since I am a little better aware of how long it takes, I will probably charge $50-$75 per hour with a three hour minimum and that's just for my time. Then I will add on top of that things like mileage, special equipment, ease of access, etc. But they will now from the beginning that it will cost no less than $150.
Jen, a table is a great idea! I will add that to my list of things to take.
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tbone-- This the fold up table that i use, it works just dandy, easy to carry and set up. I've had two deeps side by side on it and all of my hand tools as well. Walmart
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs21.postimg.cc%2Fkjzimkjsz%2FDSCF9775.jpg&hash=224a09149ab35beb9ffd1ece46d1071941fde49c) (http://postimg.cc/image/kjzimkjsz/)
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Jen,
When you recommended a table, that is EXACTLY the one I was picturing!
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Tbone, your minimum price is not unreasonable in my eyes. The one thing that keeps coming up in conversation with homeowners is the cost to have a professional come and spray to kill the bees. Unless the homeowner wants to pay extra to save the bees, the exterminator's price point will have a big influence on the outcome. :)
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Jen, When you recommended a table, that is EXACTLY the one I was picturing!
;D ;)
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Jen, When you recommended a table, that is EXACTLY the one I was picturing!
;D ;)
Yep, and I have a couple JUST like it as well..
My Kids always wanted to have their parties at "my" house.. My one and single rule was that they clean up EVERYTHING the next day...
No, they didnt, so I confiscated EVERYTHING they left behind.. I ended up with coolers, kegs and taps, chairs, occasional pieces of clothing (Should have been paying attn to that party I guess!) and fold up tables from Wal Mart...
Exterminators often end up costing the homeowner a HUGE amount of money. The poor victim has no idea the stench and the mess that is about to hit their home when they have a hive bombed....
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Scott- "My Kids always wanted to have their parties at "my" house..
Our house was the party house as well. Our garage had a pool table, fridge, tv, sound system. Car keys went into a bowl under our surveillance. More often than not we woke up in the morning to teens sprawled in the livingroom. It was always positive to have those kids at our house, except for two occasions.... one morning, one teen had barfed a gallon of stomach contents onto my new leather couch and slept in it for about 5 hours. Took a couple of years for the odor disapate from the leather. And one mother called and said that I was the leader of the devil because we were reading horoscopes from the newpaper to the teens and her 17 year old son was not allowed to come to our house anymore. That made me sad.
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LOL Jen.. you have to accept there will always be a fruitcake in the crowd. I am perfectly fine with their teen not being allowed to come to our house any longer. In fact, I am ecstatic there will be one less.. I have found through the years that despite the ban, they usually manage to make it anyhow...
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Oh! it wasn't my son's friends, it was my daughter's BoyFriend's! See that pic of me over to the right side of the screen, see all that snow on my head..... BoyFriends! whew those were long years....
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oh lordy... your not telling me anything new there... I have NO CLUE how I avoided going to jail. Nearly got divorced and my daughter didn't talk to me for several months. Even moved away from home after the firebird boyfriend event where he ended up laying on the sidewalk via the window of his car....
Some teen boys havent got a brain in their head.. They REALLY need to remember that dads were once teenage boys.....
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LOLOL! I could add to that with my daughters first boyfriend who was a high school drop out fresh out of juvenile jail, who's mother was dating a state prisoner whom she found in the back of a magazine, and she provided a camper in her front yard for her son and my 15 year old daughter to have some 'alone' time. but I won't go any further because we will be called out on the hijacking thread thing.