Worldwide Beekeeping

Beekeeping => Raising Queens => Topic started by: rodmaker on June 28, 2014, 07:23:41 pm

Title: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on June 28, 2014, 07:23:41 pm
 Is anyone familiar with this system? I just placed a new grid in my donor hive today. How long should i let the bees polish it before i place the queen on it to start laying? My hands shake to bad to graft so thought i would try this system using it along with a cloake board. Any advice would  be greatly appreciated .
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: LazyBkpr on June 28, 2014, 09:05:46 pm
I have not tried it Rod, so cant really help, but will be watching what you figure out with great interest.  I can't graft either.....
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: NiceGuyMax on June 30, 2014, 12:52:59 pm
Here is a book I am presently reading about it.
"Nicot Queen Rearing" by Grant Gillard

He says place the cell block with the front cover off, in the hive for 2 days before you add the queen. Make sure you replace the cover when you release into the cell block.

~~ Max
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: apisbees on June 30, 2014, 01:07:48 pm
Nicot System and the Jenter system of queen rearing are similar. The difference being that in the Nicot system the eggs are laid in the bottom of the one piece cell cup. The Jenter system uses a a 2 piece cell cup the bottom of the cell where the egg is laid and when it hatches it is removed and inserted in to the bottom of the queen cup. The Jenter system needs the bees to draw out the cells in the plastic frame before the queen will lay in the cells. With the Nicot system the cells cups that are snapped in from the back of the frame are the only cells that are deep enough for the queen to lay in. Do to the way they do snap in I feel that the worker bees may not be able to polish the cups properly when they are in the frames. As the instruction suggests that new cell cups be used every time.

In these queen rearing system and the queen is placed and confined to the frame and the queen lays in the cell bottom that are removed and placed in the cell cups or directly in the cup, so finding the queen is necessary on these systems.

I have used the Jenter system years ago and still us the queen cups but I graft directly into them. The reason I do not use the system as intended is. First you have to find the queen and get her into the cage. It takes leaving the queen in the cage 4 days or longer to get larva the proper age to inserted on cell bars to be drawn as queen cells. You are pulling a frame to place the special frame in the hive and then have to remove the frame and replace the frame after releasing the queen. In the videos most stated 50% success, you should be able to achieve that rate of success grafting directly into cells. The system works it just requires more times going into the hive disturbing the bees and interrupting the laying queen. Having to find and move the queen, rather than just finding a frame with brood the proper age and just grafting from it.

Queen cell building success is dependent on a lot of factors. Cell starter, is one of the most critical that it has bees the proper age and they are ready to look after the cells as soon as they are received. The second is that the larva are not allowed to dry out while being transferred in to the cell builder and the grafts being ignored by the bees until they realize that they are queen less and need the cells drawn. And thirdly that the queen cups are given to the bees to polish before the  larva are laid or grafted in the cells.

Patience is needed the bees some time take a while to polish the cells and draw the cells out before the queen will start laying. once you have young larva in the cells it is just a mater of pulling the cell bottom of the cell out and placing it in the bottom of the queen cup. No grafting needs to be done and the larva is undisturbed in it royal jelly. The issue is the starter accepting the cells some jump right on it, other times the # of rejected cells can be high whether it is cause the cells were not polished by the bees or lack of bees the proper age or lack of honey flow. There are so many variables that effect the success of queen rearing and as most find out requires resources, skills and commitment to be successful. To raise queens from your best hive can cause it to no longer be your best hive due to over management of the colony depending on the methods used. I bought a Jenter system and haven't used it the way it was designed for the last 25 years I found it easier and just as effective to graft directly in to the queen cells. But if grafting is a problem these system allows you to avoid having to do grafting.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: robo on June 30, 2014, 01:44:58 pm
When they are new, it takes a little longer for the box to become "acceptable".   After it gets old and "smells good"  I let them polish it for one day.   If you leave it too long, they will put nectar in the cell cups.   Don't ask me how I know :-X

Here is my method -> http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/queen-rearing/
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: apisbees on June 30, 2014, 05:38:07 pm
Rob on the Nicot system can the workers clean and polish the cell cups well enough when they are in the box or is it best to use new cells.
I know with the Jenter that it is best to put the complete cell cup in a hive so the entire cup is polished then remove the cup bottom and place it in the box for the queen to lay in, then place the cell bottom with the fed larva in the polished cell cup.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: robo on July 01, 2014, 08:45:02 am
Good question and I don't know if I can answer it,  but can share my experience.

I have never tried to reuse a cup that had a queen reared in it.  I have re-used cups that either had not been laid in, or had eggs laid in them but not used.  The box holds 110? cups,  and I doubt there are many folks that can handle raising that many queens at one time.   However,  it is imperative that the box be fully populated with cups when using it. If you don't,  workers can sneak through the open cell and get into the back of the box.  It is quite tight and they end up getting stuck and die.   I seem to get similar results if I reuse cups that have been through the cycle already but not used completely (queen hatched).  Depending on how long the box is put into the hive (and the hive)  I have seen them seal the crack where the bottom of the cell walls contact the bottom of the cell cup.  This leaves a ring of propolis in the bottom of the cell cup when removed.  I can't say whether this effect the success of a cell or not,  but I have seen it on new and used cups.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on July 01, 2014, 06:42:03 pm
  Placed Queen on grid today. The grid was placed in the hive on saturday the 28th so three days to polish cups . Hope she lays today so i can release her tomorrow. will place the cloake board on the day before the eggs are due to hatch? Any help with timing greatly appreciated. This is the first time for me to raise queens other than ots and want a better quality than emergency queens I'm afraid they won't make it through winter so i want to requeen. The donor queen is from a very docile hive of survivor stock that has not been treated in five years. They appear to open up cells and discard larva with mites . never get a mite count on their sticky board so i figure she will make a good donor queen. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: robo on July 01, 2014, 07:44:15 pm
  Any help with timing greatly appreciated.
http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/queen-rearing/
Quote
want a better quality than emergency queens I'm afraid they won't make it through winter so i want to requeen.
Wise decision... :yes:
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on July 01, 2014, 09:50:46 pm
   Robo  I now have your calendar ready for when eggs hatch . Thank you very much. I read the entire file and will return to it often. I like the way you used abc instead of numbers it will help me a lot.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: robo on July 02, 2014, 09:11:36 am
Good luck...  Sometimes a given queen won't lay in the grid in one day,  so that will bump back the days.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on July 02, 2014, 02:55:23 pm
  Checked the grid this mourning no eggs yet will check tomorrow. How long can the queen be left on the grid? She has about forty bees in the grid with her.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: apisbees on July 02, 2014, 03:14:49 pm
The workers will come and go in to the grid through the queen excluder cover. She could be kept in the cage for a long time as it is basically the same as a queen in a queen cage in a queen bank but allowed to lay 101 eggs. The longer she is in it will effect her laying in the hive. to long and with no new eggs and eggs hatching into brood could start the bees thinking about supersedure. I would think is she doesn't lay in 3 days she is refusing and most likely never will. Check on in the late afternoon and she could have it laid.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: robo on July 02, 2014, 03:21:27 pm
New grids can be a challenge it seems.   Once they have been used, future queens seem to be better.   Although it is the exception and not the norm,  I have found some queens that just don't want to lay in it.  As Apis suggested, my rule of thumb is 3 days and then I'll move on to another queen.   Since the grid is new,  you could stretch it a day or two, but I wouldn't go more than that.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on July 02, 2014, 03:29:19 pm
  This is what i was thinking of only leaving her in for three days max because i don't want to lose the eggs i am missing while she is in the grid. If she does not lay in the grid would it be helpful to leave it in the hive for a week and then try again with the same queen? I really want these genetics due to the way this hive deals with mites and it is very docile.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: robo on July 02, 2014, 03:35:10 pm
You can try.  There is the risk that they will store nectar in the cell cups.   Although this would make added work for you to clean out before re-confining the queen,  it might actually help her to lay in them.    The best way I found to get queens to lay in new Honey Super Cell (fully drawn 4.9 plastic comb) was to have the bees store honey in them first.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on July 02, 2014, 05:06:26 pm
   Robo i did as you suggested and rechecked the grid this afternoon about 10 minutes ago and there are about twenty eggs so i went ahead and released the queen. I am going to proceed with the letter system you use and see how i do. thank you for all your help. Now i just wait a couple days then set up my cloake board and see how it goes.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: apisbees on July 02, 2014, 06:03:44 pm
I would make sure the frame is between 2 frames of eggs and larva so there are lots of nurse bees close by to feed the young larva when they hatch. With no nurse bees close by they could get ignored if they were off oo their own next to capped brood and honey and nectar. As you will see all the larva will not be fed to the same extent. This could be because of how long ago they hatched as this is when the bees first feed the larva.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on July 02, 2014, 07:56:43 pm
  Apis thank you for your concern . The grid is between two full frames of larva right in the middle of a ten frame box. Will be moving to a five frame nuc that has a deep super so ten frames of bees. Will use a cloake board between the two and after started will return to queen right.All just a matter of timing and up to the bees to accept or reject .
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on July 04, 2014, 11:40:35 am
  Feeling foolish!  Went out to set up cloake board on starter hive and just for the heck of it i looked into the donor hive to see the grid and check eggs. Well there weren't any what i thought were eggs is a dot from the manufacture of the cups . So i located the queen and confined her to the grid again. Will check again tomorrow. This is why i don't graft I'm blind . Oh well !
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: apisbees on July 05, 2014, 12:58:25 pm
Keep us informed I am interested in how it works for you.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on July 05, 2014, 02:14:30 pm
   Okay i went and checked the grid and definitely saw eggs so to be sure i took the frame to the shop and used my lighted magnifying glass there are eggs so the countdown starts again. will set up cloake board monday and move the larva on tuesday. I will learn how to raise queens yet. just need something i am sorely lacking and that is patience.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: apisbees on July 05, 2014, 04:22:02 pm
We'll bees are good at teaching you that.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on July 08, 2014, 12:51:33 pm
  Went to move larva to starter and the girls had beat me to it they moved all eggs out of the grid . Will start all over next week. They are teaching me to be patient. And frustrating me at the same time.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on July 12, 2014, 11:44:28 am
   Well after the last try the bees moved the eggs this is probably what happened the first time when i saw eggs in the grid. So i removed the cloake board after some moves to reorient the girls and placed the grid back in the donor hive to try again. Will place the queen on grid today. This is the mann lake system and i am having no luck so far. Patience!
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on July 15, 2014, 10:25:54 pm
  Eggs in grid they say third times a charm, hope the girls leave them in place this time. the countdown starts again.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on July 17, 2014, 03:24:00 pm
 Well the girls did it again they removed all eggs from the grid so i put a frame of jz-bz cups in and will try my hand at grafting . I will try the grid system with another hive at a later date. So far i am not impressed with the mann lake no graft system. This is a survivor hive and has not been treated for varroa for six years that i know of that is why i want these genetics and they are also very easy to work.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: apisbees on July 17, 2014, 10:23:04 pm
On the Jenter system I have had to keep the queen in the frame till the larva were ready to move to the cell builder. but with this system the queen can lay every cell so it is about 500 cells the queen can lay. You could try removing the cells and place the cups with eggs in the bars in the  queenless cell builders. the bees may hold onto them because they are queenless. 
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on July 18, 2014, 02:33:58 pm
  Thank you Apis i might give this a try. I just did not want to lose all the production by having the queen caged for too long but they are starting to slow down now anyway do to drought. Thank you for your help.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: apisbees on July 21, 2014, 06:31:45 am
I totally understand you frustration. I had some of the same issues you have faced but I was 23 at the time with good eye site and steady hands. So I scraped using the system as designed and grafted directly into the cells. back in 1982 there were not all the plastic queen stuff around JZ-BZ was just starting to produce but it wasn't widely available. Most beekeepers were still making wax queen cups.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on July 23, 2014, 02:31:16 pm
   Eggs again on grid today i will leave the queen trapped on grid until larva and then release when larva are moved to starter hive. I am stubborn and i will not give up until i find a way to wise my own queens. After this attempt i will try another one of my good queens if not successful this time.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on July 26, 2014, 10:15:28 pm
 Let queen off grid. The eggs had not hatched should of been larva.  I set up the starter yesterday so i placed ten eggs that had layed over into starter.. They should hatch tomorrow or maybe already did as i did this early before heat set in 106 today 85 when i moved eggs at 8:30 this mourning will check tomorrow to see whats happening .
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on July 27, 2014, 07:18:43 pm
  Well i checked and the girls are on eight of ten cells so just maybe i will get a queen yet. Will move to finisher stage tomorrow.
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: LazyBkpr on July 27, 2014, 08:57:28 pm
Yeehaa!    Crossing my fingers!
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on July 28, 2014, 12:37:06 pm
   Well i just got back from moving queens to finisher hive good news and bad . Good news id they are raising eight queens. Bad news is they moved all eight out of the cups down to wired wax foundation they are separated so i will still be able to use most just not what i wanted. I started this mann lake no graft system on June 28th and now it is July 28th so i am going to look at different ways of raising queens from this hive they keep moving everything out of the cups. This is a very hygienic hive and i do not treat this for mites that is why i am trying so hard. I will try this with another queen at a latter date. This hive i will try to graft from if i am unsuccessful with these queen cells and they don't make it back from mating flights. Maybe better luck next time. I am just as stubborn as the bees i will not quit!
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: LazyBkpr on July 28, 2014, 06:46:10 pm
Can you try putting those queens in a different queenless hive? Maybe they will be less interested in moving them out and raising what is provided?   Just a thought...
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on July 28, 2014, 08:22:35 pm
  Ive tried different things with this queen after i see how many i can get mated successfully then i will try my bad eyes and shaky hands to see if i can graft. At this time i have no queen less hives i am trying to spread this mite resistant strain. I have done sugar shake on these and never found one mite in three years.I am new to raising queens and tired of buying them. I have been very successful with ots queens but am trying for a better quality queen. I am interested in the cell punch just not sure how to go about it .
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: LazyBkpr on July 28, 2014, 09:55:12 pm

   My page on how I raise the queens;
 
   http://outyard.weebly.com/queens.html

   This year I managed about 8 of 15 and 7 of 10 in two different attempts cell punching.   OTS I managed another 6 cells I cut out and used.   Next year I am going to attempt a larger queenless hive and or try a finisher.  Needing 6 to 10 cells my methods have worked well, but I am reaching the point I need more.  I think a larger starter will start more cells than the 7 or 8 I managed this year.  Not convinced about the queen right finisher yet..
Title: Re: Nicot no graft system
Post by: rodmaker on August 04, 2014, 12:45:05 pm
  Well i have three new queens all in roller cages. They hatched one day early and I'm glad i installed the roller cages when i did. I have mating castle set up today and will place queens tomorrow. three out of twelve on first attempt and not the way i intended must of done something wrong . After these are mated i will try again.