Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => Pests and Diseases => Topic started by: Jen on July 06, 2014, 04:57:15 pm
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Hoping to get Tec in on this one. I was going to bring this hive home, but decided to take pics first. One says it's a disease, another says that it resembles the damage of codling moth but it's not codling moth
There is only about 1 lb of bees left, the hive has been queenless for some time, no brood, eggs, nothing. There was a lot of debrie on the bottom of the box, and it had a slight musty smell to it. A lot of robbing has happened to this hive
Can anyone determine what this damage is in the wax, and what is the white dried up stuff in the combs?
Is this condition infectious to other hives?
Thank You for your time :)
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Wax moth damage. Take a small twig and dig out the mess in the center of the combs and you will find his silky webbing and a trail of feces.
The white stuff looks like honey that has crystallized. Did not see evidence of a whole bunch of robbing since there is still lots of nectar in the combs. Robbing bees on a weak hive will empty combs within hours. Edges of the cells where capped honey was at will be torn and jagged with lots of capping debris on the bottom board. There is usually many dead bees laying on the ground at the front entrance where they were fighting.
Looks like mold on the bottom boards also, along with debris from a wax moth.
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Stick those frames in the freezer for a couple of days and that will kill wax moth and SHB. They will be fine to reuse after that.
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On the 10 frame down or the 2nd from the bottom on the right hand side the honey in that part of the frame looks like it was robed out. Honey cell opened and cleaned out by the bees in the colony do not open and leave the crystallized honey that way. and the cappings punctured in that manner. That is why I believe that something other than the bees in the hive have been in removing or feeding on the honey. But lets face it, that hive quite being a colony at least 2 months ago. So all the natural assumptions on bee behavior and how they should react in a given situation has long passed. But I'm with G3 freeze and reuse.
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So I'm going to tell my friend to let the bees die out naturally, then freeze the frames for two days. Wrap up the hive and put it away for another hive down the road some time.
Keep the comments coming ~ :) Thanks
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I think that the white stuff is crystallised sugar syrup from spring feeding. I don't see signs of disease, but it would be a good idea to get rid of some of the darkest comb in that lot. Picture number 6 Looks like something you'd want to cull because that old wax will be full of pesticides.
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OK, I will repeat what i said in the other thread.
""I would shake them out in HIS yard and tell him to freeze the equipment and store it away.""
Let the bees take up with the other colony. If it is transmittable, the other colony already has it. If it isn't, then they can use the extra bees.
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So I'm going to tell my friend to let the bees die out naturally, then freeze the frames for two days. Wrap up the hive and put it away for another hive down the road some time.
Keep the comments coming ~ :) Thanks
Now that's a smart beekeeper keep your bee's healthy you can make more if you want more and I know you know how. ;D
If you ask me the pic's look like bad beekeeping to me.
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K So Iddee... I always appreciate your imput, but if this hive has been queenless for quite some time, and these bees are approaching the end of their life, why bother shaking them into another hive.
I agree with GLOCK, this beekeeper is doing a crappy job of keeping bees. He will never get another swarm from me!
Here's another thing to concider, if we were to shake them out into a new hive, we would have to buy a queen at $75 a pop this time of year. Or, I can give him a frame of eggs and he can take his chances and hope that this hive will make a new queen ready to lay in 30 days, which is going to be into August, there won't be enough time for them to build a hive to last the winter, because the bees that are in there now will more than likely be dead.
What I would like to know, and I have asked now 4 times is - "What is it, that's in this hive that took it down?" - so far the only solid answer is G3's, wax moth. I haven't seen this kind of damage before, I would like to become a bee steward in time, so it would be good for me to know what happened in this hive.
I'll wait another couple of days for more replies and see what comes up. In the meantime, I've washed my hands of this fellow and his sick bees.
Up to this point Thanks everyone for working with me ~ I appreciate ALL of you ~
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I printed it twice. Now read it a third time. Shake them out on the ground and let them go where they want. Put the hive in the freezer and then storage. Why let it set there and have all the valuable comb destroyed by pests that come along?
I did not say start another hive with them. They are worthless. The drawn comb is like gold.
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Jen,
That is wax moth damage. I've seen it first hand as well. Wax moths will take over a weak hive. Possibly because this one was queenless. I scraped off the worst of the wax moth "tunnels" and froze the frames with damaged drawn comb for later. In fact some of my swarms I caught earlier this year are using it now. They have already repaired it and restocked it.
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I printed it twice. Now read it a third time. Shake them out on the ground and let them go where they want. Put the hive in the freezer and then storage. Why let it set there and have all the valuable comb destroyed by pests that come along?
I did not say start another hive with them. They are worthless. The drawn comb is like gold.
This is the reason I'd shake them out. They can die of old age in some other hive. If you let it die out naturally moths and other critters will destroy the comb.
Drawn comb is very valuable to me!
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Iddee- "I printed it twice. Now read it a third time. Shake them out on the ground and let them go where they want.
Today, you have just gotten an example of what my husband has had to live with for the last 38 years. Sometimes... well most of the time... it's takes me a few questions, or more, to 'get it!' thanks for being patient Mr. Wizard ;)
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"What I would like to know, and I have asked now 4 times is - "What is it, that's in this hive that took it down?" - so far the only solid answer is G3's, wax moth. I haven't seen this kind of damage before, I would like to become a bee steward in time, so it would be good for me to know what happened in this hive."
can't add much more to what has already been said, except:
1. you are already a bee steward jen
2. you posted these pics for yourself and others to learn
3. frames and hive of a beehaver not a beekeeper
4. what and why?
a. see # 3 in the first place
b. hard to say what and why, but usually queenless, the bees dwindle away and cannot defend the hive against pest invasion, or robbers.
ps. moved this thread to pests and diseases ;)
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Yeah, but I bet your hubby thinks the fringe benefits are worth it.
;D
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G3 and Bama, would you tell me which pic has wax moth damage?
If it were wax moths, there would be moth larva in the debris on the bottom board. I don't see a web in any of the pics.
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If you let them die out naturally them all of the comb will be lost. Wax moths have already started in on the combs. Wax moths did not kill this hive, they only moved in after they were too weak to defend the hive. I have seen a wax moth fly into an extremely strong hive with thousands of bees bearding on the entrance, I can only assume that the moth never had the chance to lay any eggs or was promptly escorted out.
What caused them to die out.........You answered that question yourself.......queenless. With out a queen they only have two options unless the keep helps them out. I would ask the question of why they went queenless.......did the keep squish her, did the hive swarm and the new queen never make it, etc.
Option 1 is that they make emergency queen cells, now that does not always mean things will be fine in the future since she has to sexually mature, return from a mating flight (weather and birds can hamper this), and be of the mindset to be a laying queen.
Option 2 is to turn into a hopeless worker laying hive that is doomed.
If the keep steps into the picture then a queen (in some stage of life.....egg to proven layer) can be introduced in hopes of turning the hive around in the right direction. This is not always a sure fired cure either.
Just remember rule number one "Bees are bees and do as they please", sometimes no matter how hard we try or wish for them to do good they have other ideas.
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Iddee- "Yeah, but I bet your hubby thinks the fringe benefits are worth it.
D... Right Mr. Wizard! something about a wizard and sheets? :D :-[ :D
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How did you know? Now I understand my new nickname. :o :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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How did you know? Now I understand my new nickname. :o :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Your in the KKK??? :D :D
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G3- All of your comments! Yes! He's a poor keep and I'm disgusted! Thanks for you time ;)
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Iddee, I can see silk trails in pics 2, 3 and 8.
In pic 8 in the top left corner where the comb is torn out there is a cocoon just above.
In pic 9 of the bottom board there is silk trails with wax capping and feces in it where the two boards come together, and looks like a cocoon below and to the left of that, where a couple bees are standing.
That is what I see anyway.
After looking a little harder at those pics I can see where some robbing has been going on like Apis said.
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If what you are seeing is what you think, it is not enough to even affect a hive, much less destroy it.
Also, the ??web?? in 2 and 3 are the same frame.
I see nothing on the bottom board but wax and mold.
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G3- All of your comments! Yes! He's a poor keep and I'm disgusted! Thanks for you time ;)
Before you go saying that he is a poor keep (I never said that), maybe he is just learning and has no mentor or does not care to learn. Keeping bees has a huge learning curve, some can pick up on it quicker than others. This is nothing more than animal husbandry in an agricultural way, and no matter how hard you work at it there is always downfalls and successes. No matter what animal you chose to take on! Sounds like you have a new student who will have some drawn combs to give that swarm next spring.
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Never said it destroyed it.
I posted it once already :laugh:, the hive got weak and the wax moths took it from there. Pull the combs and freeze or all will be lost.
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G3 and Bama, would you tell me which pic has wax moth damage?
If it were wax moths, there would be moth larva in the debris on the bottom board. I don't see a web in any of the pics.
I see the same trace in the comb that I saw in mine when wax moths took over. My pictures will show a situation many time worse than hers show but you can still see the similarities between my frames and hers. Her pictures show the beginning of wax moth destruction, mine show the end results when left unchecked.
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Calling hers wax moth damage is like calling a briar scratch a laceration. Technically, I guess it is, but so minor I wouldn't consider it mentionable. As G3 said, a moth or two moved in after the damage was done. Yours is what I call wax moth damage.
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G3- "Before you go saying that he is a poor keep (I never said that), maybe he is just learning and has no mentor or does not care to learn.
I appreciate your optimism G ;) He said he used to be a beekeeper around 45 years ago, quote "I never did anything to help the bees out then, and I'm not going to start now." I won't add to this anymore, but it's been a long push against his restraint that killed this hive. I'm done! Let's move on!
By the way I'm doing my first cut out with a friend tomorrow! I'm excited and have camera charged :D
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Having seen the bees, shake them out. My guess on what took the hive down - old queen swarmed off with half the bees, new queen failed to return mated BUT there would be a queen cup as evidence.
And no, don't let them die out naturally or you lose the comb. White as sugar I can see, wax moth damage I see - freezer will fix that, and the one old comb maybe toss it. They do not have DWV, if they had efb they have cleaned it up well, dumping them on drawn comb is good. I do not know if I would reuse their honey/nectar, maybe rinse the comb after freezing (I have gotten EFB that way)
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Jen, good luck on the cut out. Just did one yesterday, about 35 foot off the ground in the eve of a house. Had been there for several years, was a nice cut out til another hive started robbing then it got ugly. Sorry no pics.
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G- you mean they started robbing while you were working on the cut out?
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35 foot up with robbing underway, I understand no photos...
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I was in a nice big boom lift, but yes there was another colony that found us and it was not very fun. Had to hurry things up and cut out all of the honey combs and scrap out the cavity, cover two five gallon buckets of comb and take the water hose to the spilled honey on the roof below. I bet I used half a bale of pine straw, was afraid neighbors would call the fire department. Was in an upscale golf course subdivision.
anyway back to the original post, sorry for the hijack.
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This hive was a swarm from the Jens 1 hive that resulted in producing 10 swarms this spring. It could have been a virgin queen that never mated, or mated poorly and was superseded right away. Jen mentioned in another thread about him not allowing her to attend to them so I don't know If she knows for sure if the queen ever started laying again.
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G3-"Jen, good luck on the cut out.
Thanks G, it's going to be an interesting day. I will be in the mentor position and my friend Phil will be helping, he wants his own hive so this is on opporunity to get him a hive with a queen. Have camera packed ;D
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hrm.. sorry I have been busy, but Iddee, G and others covered it pretty well..
I agree with BOTH Iddee and G.. Wax moth is starting, but there is not enough in there to worry about at this point. Not enough wax moth to have debris starting to accumulate on the bottom board. Act soon to save what is there, let the bees find a new hive.
In looking at the pictures, I cant tell if there are fecal deposits from mites or if some of that is crystallized syrup. Freeze the frames, kill the few WM larvae there, the bees will clean those frames up and repair them when a new hive is started on them.
If there were more bees I would give them some more bees/brood and a queen, but as it stands, if I opened that hive in my yard my priority would shift to saving the comb.
There is nothing wrong with "drawn" plastic.. Like any comb that is fully drawn, it is worth a small fortune to start another hive on. (after it has been frozen) Once well started the frames can be rotated out one or two at a time.
Once they were shaken out on the ground and the equipment taken care of..... Then I would get the horse whip out and hand it to my wife.
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Scott- "Then I would get the horse whip out and hand it to my wife.
A flogging is in order, just for general purposes, I'll leave that for his wife. Then I'll indulge for the neglect of the bees. Sounds like a party :D