Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: Jen on July 16, 2014, 03:09:14 pm
-
PHASE 1 ~ It isn't pretty... tell me there is hope :-\ this time of year
It's been 8 days since the cut out. Walked up to the hive and noticed lots of speckles all over the front of the hive, they may be all over but I just noticed the front. Bees are coming and going but there are dead bees at the entrance.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs29.postimg.cc%2F6op1ohegj%2FDSCF9985.jpg&hash=713a83b8aca4e78f1d34a54a6ab676166812ae32) (http://postimg.cc/image/6op1ohegj/)
Took the lid off. It became clear that my friend didn't follow thru with my instructions to straighten the frames out and center them when he got home. LESSON #1 on cut outs, make sure to fill the hive box with extra frames before heading home.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs12.postimg.cc%2Fjwnsi35x5%2FDSCF9986.jpg&hash=13f539e63e54bf996e264797d3533c5a9705e26d)[/ur
Lifted the frames out, and took the deep off of the bottom board. Armageddon. LESSON #2 do my own vacuuming from now on, just a few bees at a time, or they suffocate. Or C:-) Talk To Rob ;) Had a hunch that we poured damaged bees into this hive.
[url=http://postimg.cc/image/4ghwe1rzz/](https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs27.postimg.cc%2F4ghwe1rzz%2FDSCF9994.jpg&hash=5854520e4e5ea1dd55bc91ed969d93ac104526f5) (http://postimg.cc/image/jwnsi35x5/)
PHASE 2 ~ The Comb ~ The good news, there are bees amongst this mess. The bad news, no repair has been done to the comb.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimg.cc%2F6tp00nytp%2FDSCF0001.jpg&hash=eb172a32fffe94084013d0eda97888bb69d7dfdd) (http://postimg.cc/image/6tp00nytp/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimg.cc%2F7objmp6od%2FDSCF0002.jpg&hash=e76b2b1a57a0304c00f5d9ecd25a45fcdf432b83) (http://postimg.cc/image/7objmp6od/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimg.cc%2Fxl9td1zpp%2FDSCF0003.jpg&hash=36fb848704ab9855ec12989f3e24a1c8c11a42d1) (http://postimg.cc/image/xl9td1zpp/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimg.cc%2Ffhbe65rf1%2FDSCF0004.jpg&hash=5726a817b72e67f095bdd26c6c7681c0343258e9) (http://postimg.cc/image/fhbe65rf1/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimg.cc%2F7v30v0jyl%2FDSCF0005.jpg&hash=75c29ba57a3848b4b9414e6fd0691010d2b7af86) (http://postimg.cc/image/7v30v0jyl/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimg.cc%2Fbwk40oc99%2FDSCF0006.jpg&hash=bcf3ef544e52da67fe62e3364de0bfd8ea5a50bd) (http://postimg.cc/image/bwk40oc99/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimg.cc%2Ff8ietz40d%2FDSCF0007.jpg&hash=a6707ff91fcf68756ad707de756ec576a5240bda) (http://postimg.cc/image/f8ietz40d/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimg.cc%2Fto0bsvh1p%2FDSCF0010.jpg&hash=813f5e71e836eac0d5fda86490df48711afd37b8) (http://postimg.cc/image/to0bsvh1p/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimg.cc%2Fwytqpvdal%2FDSCF0014.jpg&hash=25da45db6eff1be9cb01b675c471ea4d27969981) (http://postimg.cc/image/wytqpvdal/)
Phase 3 ~ "Clean Up On Isle 4 Please" Picked off all dead matter on the frames. Hosed off the bottom board and deep. Reassembled the hive straightened the frames. Placed a temporary feeder jar inside of deep up on a couple of wood pegs until I can get him an inner cover. Put water on boardman. Screened off front entrance except for small space to the left for one bee at a time. Yellow jackets -Lots. Propped lid two popscicle stick high for vent.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs16.postimg.cc%2Fcaoqwwh9t%2FDSCF0016.jpg&hash=e59280585880b61232665287c9e254dc940c4de6) (http://postimg.cc/image/caoqwwh9t/)
The hive did not smell fresh, but not neccessarily like AFB, I think it was the decay of dead bees. There are 2 empty queen cups, one came with the colony, and one empty queen cell. Searched and searched for a queen, don't think so. No fresh larvae, eggs. Took a tiny stick and swirled around some of the capped brood, no AFB smell or brown snot.
-
I'd stick a frame of eggs in the middle and see what happens.
-
What woody said.. I would probably also give them brood and the bees on that frame of brood.. BUT, if this fellow is not interested in following instructions to make sure they survive, you may be throwing good money after bad.
-
:yah:
I'd be kinda pissed that the guy couldn't even be bothered to straighten out the frames. >:(
-
I'd say you gave it a good effort.....
Then I would likely do a combine with a hive in need.
I see very little on the frames worth TRYING to save. If he doesn't have any bees to pull from then if you really feel the need to save as is, then yes (a) frame of the appropriate larvae close by to make the quick exchange can be donated. I say this because I think you've said you were a bit away from him. If the larvae are chilled or exposed for any significant time in travel, then it's a waste anyhow. Of course feed.
I wish much luck !
-
thanks for the pix jen......
i'm with garden hive, you gave it your best shot....combine....
she appears queenless, even giving it a frame of bees and brood, or eggs to raise a new queen, your looking at 7 weeks or more for them to successfully raise a queen, mate, start laying, another 21 days for workers to emerge, buildup, etc.....and no resources in the hive....and then they need bees and resources going into your winter.....
you will be running out of time i think?
not sure what your friend is willing to do?
-
Woody and Scott - "What woody said.. I would probably also give them brood and the bees on that frame of brood.. BUT, if this fellow is not interested in following instructions to make sure they survive, you may be throwing good money after bad
He and I had a chat yesterday about the beekeeping thing, he's not sure if he will keep stinging, but he thinks he would like to have a hive anyway. We made an agreement that if he ever looses interest, that he would give the hive to me, he is a mannered man so I trust that he will let me know. I do feel commited for at least this season. If I do get the hive back it will be equipt with the right woodenwork, I made sure of that ;) 8)
-
Riv- "she appears queenless, even giving it a frame of bees and brood, or eggs to raise a new queen, your looking at 7 weeks or more for them to successfully raise a queen, mate, start laying, another 21 days for workers to emerge, buildup, etc.....
This is the math that I've been thinking as well. Unless he want's to buy a queen for $75, if we can even find one.
It will be towards the ends of August if the bees make a laying queen, and is there enough drones for her Don't think the hive can bulk up soon enough for fall nights and winter.
Garden - "I say this because I think you've said you were a bit away from him. If the larvae are chilled or exposed for any significant time in travel, then it's a waste anyhow.
He lives about 20 mins out. I would have to be out there a lot to baby this hive along... hmmmm
-
K, SO if your committed.. maybe buying a queen for the hive is in order? Put a couple frames of capped brood and the bees on those frames in a nuc, close it up well to transport it. Drop those frames in. Give it a day for them to come to terms and organize, then give them a queen..
I have JUST started several nucs, but I also intend to keep them as nuc's so they should be able to build up ten frames between now and winter with some feed, hugs and pats... Your in Cali, so I do not know how much season you have left. 16 days to raise a queen, a week to mate, 21 days for brood to emerge will put you at the end of August / first week of September IF everything goes well..
A mated queen will have brood emerging mid August.. when does the fall flow end and cold start to move in where you live?
Maybe combining them with yours and splitting in the spring for him would be a better goal?
-
Scott- "when does the fall flow end and cold start to move in where you live?
I don't know when the fall flow ends, I've never paid attention to that until this year. Mid October for the very first turning of leaves, deer season.
Scott- "A mated queen will have brood emerging mid August..
Soo, counting on my fingers.... IF that all goes right with a mated queen, would she have time to make her winter workers? Am I thinking right at about two months?
-
Lesson learned. I would never suggest a new keep who hasn't had some experience with a working hive to do a cutout. They just don't have an understanding of bees and how they work. I would do as the others said if there is enough bees introduce a frame of eggs.
-
A mated queen will give you two MAYBE three generations of brood at 21 days each. Letting them make a new queen on their own will give you one.. And a LOT of feeding during that time to get the hive up to weight... No drawn comb could be a problem if they do not jump all over getting it drawn... I have about the same amount of time.. A week or two less perhaps, depending on the fall.. Nothing I start now will overwinter in anything more than a nuc. If I had drawn frames that would go a long ways toward getting them ready for winter.
-
The other thing that has to be considered is do not expect large patterns brood, you're losing daylight and resources even if you do feed them up they might be more inclined to store it rather than use it to raise brood, in preparation for the winter
-
Yes Riverrat, but everything I have ever done with bees has been a lesson learned, I'm on my own a lot with the bees and used to casualties. However, this year during the swarming episode I actually gained positive knowledge, because I had soo many people here helping me out, You included :) and now have 3 more hives to boot ;D so I am three steps ahead.
When the swarming was happening, hubby used the Bissel hand vac, but he only vacuumed for a minute or two max, and then gently dumped the bees into the hive and the bees were just fine. I realize that it was the 'over' vacuuming that was destructive to this hive. In time, if I become a bee catcher, I will invest in a vac like Robo's
And actually, I've read quite a bit from other new keeps on this forum that did their first cut outs and did pretty darned good. It would have been simply terrific if I had a mentor over my shoulder on this one, but it wasn't in the cards, so I watched a lot of Scott's and JP's videos. That is what most of us newbee's have, video's.
Have to have a sit down with Phill and see how he wants to proceed.
1. Either buy a queen $75, add pulled frames
2. Combine and give him a split next spring
3. Add some eggs and a couple of pulled frames and hope that we have a nice loong indian summer
-
:yah:
I'd be kinda pissed that the guy couldn't even be bothered to straighten out the frames. >:(
Me thinks he doesn't have enough interest and aggressiveness to be a beekeeper. But almost everyone at some point in time, does not live up to our expectations. Give him and the bees a chance.
-
Lazy shooter- "Give him and the bees a chance.
Ya get a big hug from me, Lazy! I'm trying to help my friend out ~
-
I suspect when it comes to beekeeping you need to find new friends lol
-
I have Barry, right here on this forum :) and every other beek that I know in this area. This friend isn't a beek yet, he's trying and I'm helping as best I can this season. After this season he'll have to make a decision.
-
Yeah that's quite the mess with not alot of time to square it away, with diminishing natural resources, the bee math isn't working in that rather abused colony, nothing you did.
-
My friend Phill and I had a talk today about his options:
1. Either buy a queen $75, add pulled frames
2. Combine and give him a split next spring
3. Add some eggs and a couple of pulled frames and hope that we have a nice loong indian summer
Phill choose to add a frame of eggs with the bees, and a couple of pulled frames, feed, feed, feed, and let nature take it course. He and I both understand that it's late in the season. But if the hive doesn't bulk up by end of fall, we could combine with my hives then, and then I'll give him a split in the spring.
What would happen if I put two frames of brood and eggs in his hive? I have the resources...
-
Well assuming they make a queen minimally 16 days until she hatches, another 10 to 15 days before the first egg is laid. Another 21 days before the first worker hatches. If I was going to do it that way I would add more sealed brood, then larval brood, along with a frame of eggs. My idea is to regenerate the worker ranks asap, so the new queen will have some sort of workforce to work with.
-
Ohh yeah.....feed them up heavliy...
-
Just got off the phone with our local bee guru, Willy. He said it's possible for this to work, but keep in mind that there is minimal nectar and pollen this year due to draught. I would have to depend on my friend to feed and keep pollen patties in the hive.
Back on the fence with this one...
-
Hmmmm you going to make up syrup, and pollen patties, in bulk, and delivering it to him? Or do you believe he has enough conviction to use it....
-
If you put 2 or 3 frames of eggs and brood in there, you are basically creating a nuc to raise it's own queen. Would you do that in your own yard this time of year? I wouldn't. Take them home and combine them or dump them out. Split next year.
-
After talking to Willie and listening to you guys. I Think I know what to do... or what not to do this year.
This is the first season out of 4 where I've had any kind of counseling from sping to winter. And I'm starting to get the bee math a little more.
Thanks Barry and Iddee!
Now, there is still capped brood in this hive, should I wait until they hatch and then dump the bees? or should I dump bees and then put the five frames in the freezer capped brood and all?
-
What Iddee said unless you had a proven way to make and over winter nucs but to do this at this time of year mated queen should be used so as not to impact the rearing of winter bees.
-
I would shake out 20 feet in front of the chosen hive, then add the brood frames to it, even if I had to add a box to do so, or just set the hive, minus bees, on top of the chosen hive.
If you don't have laying workers yet, you can just newspaper combine.
-
Listen to the master Jen. Iddee knows. You gave it your best shot. Besides trying to raise a queen under less than ideal conditions is prone to result in high failure rates. And no amount of feeding can make up for the effect the drought conditions will have on the ability of the bees to raise a good queen.
-
Iddee- "If you don't have laying workers yet, you can just newspaper combine.
The bees that are left in this hive have not done anything to these frames, is it possible that these are nurse bees that are left?
This is probably something that I should look up in my most awesome book The Beekeepers Handbook ;D
-
Apis- "Listen to the master Jen. Iddee knows. You gave it your best shot. Besides trying to raise a queen under less than ideal conditions is prone to result in high failure rates. And no amount of feeding can make up for the effect the drought conditions will have on the ability of the bees to raise a good queen
Hi Apis, a few post up I mentioned talking to our bee guru here in the area. I asked him about the Star Thistle blooms, there seems to be plenty for now. But he said "Yes, there is plenty of bloom on the thistles this year but the bees aren't interested in them because of the severe drought there is no nectar in them, and not very much pollen. I took a stroll thru the area where I live and it's true no bees are on the thistle. Tough year here for beeks ~
-
I'm wondering now if this location where my friend and his family live, is a good location at all. Scrub rocky land, short blunt trees.
Maybe it would be completely different in the spring with wildflowers. I'll have to check that out... hmmmm
-
Yes 100 deg with no precipitation pretty much kills nectar flows. The flowers all still look pretty but they are drier than a popcorn fart.
-
Nurse bees or not doesn't change a thing.
-
Apis- "Yes 100 deg with no precipitation pretty much kills nectar flows. The flowers all still look pretty but they are drier than a popcorn fart.
Apis! :o You said the Ef word! What are we gonna do with YOU!
Okay then, if August comes along as is cooler than July here... usually... the flowers are still not going to get any nectar unless it rains?
-
Iddee covered what I was going to say as I read along.. Why waste the capped brood? If you have a weak hive combine these bees and the brood with yours. Add a couple frames with bees to each of your hives etc... Or as Iddee said, add the frames, shake out the bees and let them pick a hive.. Strengthen yours so they are rip roaring ready to split in the spring.
Earlier this coming spring than last spring.. :P
-
Scott- "Strengthen yours so they are rip roaring ready to split in the spring.
Oh Geez, that just gave me the swarm shutters....
Scott- " Earlier this coming spring than last spring.. :P
If the split doesn't happen before March 26th, I'll send for your minion on the 27th and she can catch me on film climbing the cedar tree's in my jammies :P
-
Mkay, I know that I'm going to have to come up with a solution to this extended situation... but I'm throwing it on the table for now.
The main reason my friend Phill and I got these bees from the cut out is so that he could have his own bees at his house for bee venom therapy. Otherwise he has to come into town every 3-4 days for jars of bees from me for him to take home.
If I take his hive (about 1 pound of bees) and combine with mine... I've taken away his medicine, and we're back to square one.
Doing the math, he now has bees in the hive that are alive and active. When the brood hatches it will be 6 more weeks of bees for his therapy.
I don't like the idea of letting the bees, and brood hatch and die out, but unless I have another hive to donate to him, I think that's what I'm going to have to do.
-
Well then your back to square one with the hive as well.. Get them a queen, or get them eggs and Larvae so they can make their own. Feed them! and keep your fingers crossed.. No more delaying! gogogogogo!
-
But there won't be 6 more weeks, once the brood hatches out, the bees have nothing to hold them there. Suspect they will abandon the bees hive for a queen right colony
-
K, I've made a decision. If I can get a queen for a decent price from Palo Cedro Calif tomorrow, I'll do that. That would be the most expedicious plan to get that hive jump started.
If not, my friend will have to do with jarred bees thru winter, and we will give him a split in the spring.
-
:)
-
Thanks Barry, back atcha :)
-
I found a bee business in Palo Cedro, CA that would sell me one queen. Hard time finding queens this time of year. Either a 10 queen minimum, or the overnight air expenses due to the heat.
Had a real good talk with a Mr. Robert Wooten, Wooten's Golden Queens, about a 2 hours drive from my town. He comes from a family of queen breeders and beekeepers. He was very honest and polite and a pleasure to visit with. He said that he would be happy to sell me a queen, and yes it is quit feasible for a queen to jump start a colony this time of year up in my territory... "under the right circumstances".... and there is the rub
The queen will start laying eggs during a time that there is no pollen coming in, and the Star Thistle has no nectar. A recipe for disaster. I knew this from talking to you guys on the forum, just reiterating.
I also learned from him that he has a couple of thousand hives right in our area, like on the outskirts of town and in the small towns close to us. Says it cooler up here than Palo Cedro at 125 or more every day.
Bottom line ~ he suggested what Iddee said in the first place, and what Apis said to me 3 TIMES which was "Listen to the master Jen!"
So, my friend Phill, will have to make a decision on whether to dump the bees and let the brood hatch in my hive. Or, keep stinging until the hive dies out.
Thanks for listening ;) 8)
-
::);)
-
He can stimulate with syrup but is the cost to feed them up to over winter and then it is a crap shoot whether they will survive the winter.
Thinking of some of your other resent posts and the conditions you are finding yourself in now, just thinking. Jen keep in mind that if none of your hives are week and in need of the extra bees, adding bees to a already strong colony could be detrimental to your hive in that you have added to the population that needs to be cared for and fed. The cut out could have heavy mite loads that could negatively effect your hive.
-
Apis- "He can stimulate with syrup but is the cost to feed them up to over winter and then it is a crap shoot whether they will survive the winter.
Frankly Apis, I'm not sure what kind of beekeeper my friend will make. He's a little disjointed in this world. Although, he is a very caring person. He trims the hooves of horses for a living, and the horses love him to pieces.
I appreciate your concern for me and my hives this season. It certainly has been a huge arch of learning. Interesting that hubby said the same thing this evening... in that he doesn't want anything to disrupt the care of our hives, regarding bringing the bees and brood to our hives, especially this season where we've worked so hard to help our bees multiply and prosper.
So, because he wants the hive for bee venom therapy, I think I'll just tell him to use the bees until the hive dies out. Give him some books to read over the winter and then see if he would like a hive in the spring. This feels like a managable and reasonable plan.
-
tell him to poor the syrup to them and let them build out some comb it will give the bees he gets next spring a boost if he has more drawn comb.
-
I also learned from him that he has a couple of thousand hives right in our area, like on the outskirts of town and in the small towns close to us. Says it cooler up here than Palo Cedro at 125 or more every day.
Are they with in 4 miles of your place and hives? If so they may \ ARE competing with your bees for available forage. If they are with in 2 miles, Is he open feeding? The red in the honey frames could be the dye used in the oxytetracycline. Just some thoughts to consider. could explain a few things.
-
Apis- "Are they with in 4 miles of your place and hives? If so they may \ ARE competing with your bees for available forage. If they are with in 2 miles, Is he open feeding? The red in the honey frames could be the dye used in the oxytetracycline. Just some thoughts to consider. could explain a few things.
I believe the closest location of one of his yard is about 10 miles, so I'm safe there ~
What is oxytetracycline? :o
-
Terramycin (Oxytetracycline)
-
Oh! okay I know what that is, used some of that on my hive 3 years ago when I found American Foul Brood, unfortunately hive was too far gone, had to burn that one :'(