Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: Jen on August 03, 2014, 11:16:46 am
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Curious :-\ Two of my hives have full to the brim honey supers on the top of the stacks, one each. They are just sitting there being heavy. When I do my inspections I have to lift them off and set them aside and then hoist them back up on top again, unless hubby is home of course.
Can I take a honey super off of the stack and set it beside the stack until after the late fall inspection, then return them to the stack for the winter? I would put the super, or more supers stacked, on a piece of plywood with a secure top so no robbing would occur. If the supers are on the stack in 105 degrees and don't melt, then why wouldn't this work sitting beside the stack.
Hubby said it has to do with the bees and temperature. That the bees keep the temperature at a level so honey and wax doesn't melt inside the hive.
I think this is a good question for newbees, especially this time of year :) 8)
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THe bees keep them cool and ventilated as well as keeping pests at bay, wax moth Hive beetle ants etc... If you did that you would return to find a big mess, either because of the melting or because of the pests.. If you cant deal with moving them, its TIME for Jaybird to extract!!!!
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Good Morning First Responder Scott! :) "If you cant deal with moving them, its TIME for Jaybird to extract!!!!
Here in lies another question. Because all 4 of my hives started out as swarms, cast swarms, and reduced colonies from the swarming in the spring... how do I know that there is enough honey within the brood boxes to sustain them over the winter? Wouldn't I be taking their winter supply?
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How much did you leave on the one that lived through the winter last year? How much was left in it this spring. Now you know how much to leave. Extract the rest, or freeze some frames and feed back in Feb. or Mar. You can also mix honey and water and feed in early spring, same as sugar water.
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Are you talking about supers or brood boxes?
If those are the brood boxes, checkerboard new frames in and put the full frames in your freezer. Let them draw the new frames and start to fill those, when winter arrives.. IF they have not filled the new frames you can slide the thawed frames from the freezer back in place so they are ready for winter. You may get some honey to extract and they have full stores.
If you have supers on that are full, the brood boxes below should be pretty full.. If they are not, pull the supers, extract some of the frames, freeze some to put on for winter if they do not get the brood box backfilled.
Iddee posted while typing.. What he said too ;D
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If you don't want to pull the supers and extract right now, put more supers on (either on top or under the full super) and see if they draw comb and fill those, too. It's only August. There's plenty of time for winter preparations (unless you live high in the mountains or in Alaska).
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Iddee- "How much did you leave on the one that lived through the winter last year? How much was left in it this spring. Now you know how much to leave.
I have no idea. The last three years I had no mentoring, we insulated the outside of the hive and hoped for the best. This year I will continue my huge learning curve thru my forum mentors :)
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In northern California It will be if there is a fall flow due to the hot dry summer and if they get moisture to get the fall plants to produce nectar. The amount of honey needed to over winter for her because of how early her spring is is the 30 to 40 lb range. When it comes to successful overwintering stores are only 1/2 the issue, the condition and health of the bees is just as an important, and often overlooked. The bees need the late summer and fall flows is stimulate a good healthy new fall winter bee population to take the colony into and thru the winter. The bees also need to be healthy and free of pests and disease.
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And this is exactly why I'm not confident to extract honey yet. However, Iddee said I could use honey and water to feed in the winter if needed, haven't heard of that formula before. And I like the idea of checker boarding to lighten the weight of the honey supers.
I've got a couple of pics to take of the star thistle in our back alley, and the smokey skies and ash on our cars. Sun? haven't seen it for a few days. :sad: Rain? only a couple of hours worth every now and then which produces 12 more fires :sad:
Be back a little later
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Jen, if I wasn't sure that they had enough for the winter I would at least take two frames spin them out, enjoy some of your own honey and watch to see how long it takes for them to fill those frames back up.
Do you have a extractor?
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I was always raised on the concept that the bee's need a minimum of 60 pounds because you're not merely talking about feeding bees through the winter you're talking about them having enough feed for them when they start serious early brood rearing, that is when colonies will starve.
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To add to what Iddee mentioned. If you are going to feed extracted honey back, add 10% water to get them to take it easier.
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Barry, that was when a beek went to the hive once a year and harvested. Otherwise, they were never looked at. Now, in NC, it is recommended 30 to 50 lb. Adjust upward for north of here, downward for south of here.
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Iddee, I was in upstate NY when those lessons were taught lol and bearing in mind from up there I am using nothing but deep s so leaving behind sixty pounds is just a super/ brood chamber.
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I didn't know even PEOPLE overwintered in upstate NY. I thought all of them went to Florida in November. :o ;D
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:D ;D
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Hi Bee- "Jen, if I wasn't sure that they had enough for the winter I would at least take two frames spin them out, enjoy some of your own honey and watch to see how long it takes for them to fill those frames back up.
Do you have a extractor?
Ya know!... I like this idea! Yes, I have access to an extractor, hand crank, I haven't even seen it yet, but hubby has.
If I got a jar of my own honey, you can bet I'de be outside digging and burying it like the treasured bones my dog loves, dig it back up and sample a bit on a particularly hard day, or good day for that matter :D Might even throw a quilt an pillow and sleep over it a night or two :D
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This post got off topic but I learned some other neat tricks as well. Soo, back on topic, which is how to remove or reduce the weight of two mediums full of capped honey, so my inspections are less laborous :)
Scott- "Are you talking about supers or brood boxes?
medium supers full of capped honey ~
Scott- "If you have supers on that are full, the brood boxes below should be pretty full.. If they are not, pull the supers, extract some of the frames, freeze some to put on for winter if they do not get the brood box backfilled.
favor please, scratching my head on this last suggestion. Would I be removing the honey super to encourage the bees to work on the brood box only.... :-\
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Perry- "To add to what Iddee mentioned. If you are going to feed extracted honey back, add 10% water to get them to take it easier."
That's the equation I was wanting, Thanks Perry!
Now... how do you stir water into honey?
And, the jarred honey... won't that be very cold and stiff for the bees to get it out of the holes in the lid?
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Honey has hydroscopic properties that is to say it absorbs moisture even from the air. What I believe Iddee is suggesting is to thin the honey to be more like nectar then cured honey. Not as thick, but taken just as readily so yes you can stir/ mix alittle water into the honey.
As to those heavy supers as long as you leave them on it doesn't matter where in the stack they are you will still have to pick them up to get into the brood chambers. The upper brood chamber, should already have a large cap of honey across the top of most of the frames and the outer frames should have capped honey. Don't know how much longer your season will last but in all probability the bees are preparing for winter already if in fact they totally fill the upper brood chamber with capped honey they should have more than enough to last through one of your winters and still start raising their brood in the early spring.
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Apis- "In northern California It will be if there is a fall flow due to the hot dry summer and if they get moisture to get the fall plants to produce nectar.
Yellow Star Thistle, no rain, no sun, and no sign of fires letting up soon. Evacuations are in progress up to 20 miles from where we live :sad:
Star Thistle clogging alleyways and fields, the only two animals that can eat them is goats and bees
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs11.postimg.cc%2Fpime1azgf%2FDSCF0200.jpg&hash=3c9135f7b4a5cebb378ee2d063fe4c4d821c539b) (http://postimg.cc/image/pime1azgf/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs11.postimg.cc%2Fjj38be41r%2FDSCF0203.jpg&hash=ac9f5763475f7c2906ca5d6a7504346f943ed87b) (http://postimg.cc/image/jj38be41r/)
Last week there were no bees on these blooms, but now they are working them pretty good
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs11.postimg.cc%2F6g7ls4dtr%2FDSCF0214.jpg&hash=ce671738154aef40f862c1d2cd11678767e03995) (http://postimg.cc/image/6g7ls4dtr/)
This is about half the smoke we're getting right now
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs29.postimg.cc%2Fllyatbb4z%2FDSCF0205.jpg&hash=1894e5d3e5849bc5983a2018d2fd0894eccfb4a7) (http://postimg.cc/image/llyatbb4z/)
Ash on my neighbors black car
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs29.postimg.cc%2F5iqf78yzn%2FDSCF0222.jpg&hash=47994c07b9a88ab07a228765bca17ff104e26252) (http://postimg.cc/image/5iqf78yzn/)
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Barry- "The upper brood chamber, should already have a large cap of honey across the top of most of the frames and the outer frames should have capped honey
My last inspection.. the hive bodies didn't have the cap of honey across the top or outer sides yet. I'll be checking for that aspect this this week.
Barry- "As to those heavy supers as long as you leave them on it doesn't matter where in the stack they are you will still have to pick them up to get into the brood chambers.
The purpose of this post is to find a solution to reducing the weight of the 60+ pounds of honey so I can get to the brood box with ease. One of my friends said to simply remove 6 of the honey frames, set them aside, then lift the then 30 lb. medium super, set it aside. Do my inspection. Then reassemble. Think I'll do that for now, and then reconnoiter a plan from this post on how to deal with how much honey each hive has at the moment ~
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Collectively you're lifting the same weight with you pick it all up at once or, one tenth at a the time. If you're going to do that I would have a spare empty super and use a frame perch and put those 4 or 5 frames on that. This way it stays in sequence and they can be put back in the same way they were taking out
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heavy supers.... now that is a problem everyone should look forward too!
a snip... 'NC, it is recommended 30 to 50 lb. Adjust upward for north of here, downward for south of here.' < significant research says 24 kg or about 50# of honey is enough to get a hive to spring.... the difficult factor to work into this estimation is the great variation in spring time brooding of bees.
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Jen, remove and extract all fully capped, or 80+ %, medium frames that you have on each hive over 10.
One fully capped medium will be enough, along with what's in the brood chamber, to get them through winter.
Now, dad-burnit, Jaybird,listen to Grandpa and get'er done...........................
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At this point, I am still pulling capped frames from the brood chamber, giving the queen room to continue laying. I freeze those frames, but have high hopes the Goldenrod will flourish this year.
I had about 100 to 120 lbs on my hives last winter and the bees tore into the sugar on top like there was no tomorrow.. They were into the sugar by mid February.. so temps and climate do matter.
So I am going to back up a little.. THinking about Jen's hives
IIRC Jen/you have a deep with a single medium on top? This is the wintering configuration?
Have you added another super or is there only one?
If there is only one, I recommend the same I did above.. Pull about half the frames and freeze them. Put in some new frames for them to start drawing and filling depending on your flow, you reduced the weight by half. You could leave two/four outside frames and put new frames in the center of the medium so you reduce the weight by more than half.
If you come into a good flow they MAY draw those frames and fill them. If you do not get into a good flow they will still probably draw those frames a little giving them a head start for next year.
Scenario;
Jen removes eight capped frames from her medium boxes, replaces them with new frames, {because I do not think she has drawn frames to give them} She puts the capped frames in her freezer..
#1 A good fall flow between now and November. The bees get those new frames drawn, filled, and capped. Jen can thaw those frames in the freezer and extract them!
#2 A mild fall flow. The bees draw, fill, and cap three of the eight new frames by November. they have drawn two of the other frames, some nectar in them, not capped..
Jen removes the frames that have not been capped, and replaces them with frames she thawed from her freezer, she can extract the three left over.
#3 No fall flow, the bees will likely still start drawing two or three of the frames, but not have any of them capped or filled. So the frames in the freezer will all need to go back into the hives, BUT, the bees have started to draw the new frames so will have a head start on next year..
This is also my plan after I remove my supers. Capped frames from the brood chambers are stored in the freezer, so if there is ANY problem with refilling the hives, I have the resources to make sure they are capable of wintering. I will also feed 2/1 syrup with Fumagilin B in late September, trying to get a gallon of it into each hive so they can cap it. Any empties. partials etc are replaced with the frames from the freezer when it starts to get cold.
This is just my recommendation.. I know beeks who make sure the bees have an entire super of medicated syrup capped and ready for winter.. I don't like to take honey and feed syrup, but they seem to do fine that way. I do want some Fumagilin B for them, I am trying not to lose more hives to Nosema. Winters in northern California are not as harsh, they may have more days for cleansing flights and have no need for Fumagilin. It is entirely possible that we go six months without a single cleansing flight here. More common is 4 months. 4 months is a long time for a bee to refrain from pooping!
In the event you get excited and extract too much? Well, yes, you can feed 2/1 syrup to get them back to target weight. One advantage of extracting NOW, is that you have drawn frames to put back for them to fill. They don't have to waste the resources drawing comb.
There is really no wrong way, some ways one person likes better, other ways another likes better. Pick your poison, and work from there.
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we insulated the outside of the hive and hoped for the best.
I was thinking about your swarming situation you had this spring. I have also read, in other posts, that you wrapped your hives for winter. Hmmm? I wonder if there is any connection between the two? I don't know exactly what part of CA you live in. If you live in the mountains where the temperatures get really, really cold I could see wrapping them. But it might be over kill. We don't wrap here and temps can dip down to -20F. There is no shortage of wind on these plains either. (Like the song says)
One of the reasons we don't wrap here is the hive warms up too fast and the colony starts amping up for spring too quickly. Then in late winter we usually have another cold snap and the food stores will be used up too quickly. My point is, your hives maybe warming up early causing the queens to go into spring laying mode early thus contributing to the urge to swarm. Or I could be totally off base. Maybe others will have some thoughts regarding this idea.
I will put a super on a hive that is building up quickly in the spring hoping to eliminate any over crowding that could cause the urge to swarm. You should extract that honey and let the fall flow be theirs for winter stores. I would put my empty super back on top. First, so they can clean it up and secondly, in case there is a fall flow. If you find they haven't filled the brood chamber for winter, you can feed or let them take that honey on down.
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Iddee- "that was when a beek went to the hive once a year and harvested. Otherwise, they were never looked at. Now, in NC, it is recommended 30 to 50 lb. Adjust upward for north of here, downward for south of here.
Good Morning Mr. Wizard ;) does this geographical equation apply to the west coast as well? If so I am north of NC by a pretty good jump, so I'm thinking I would need 60 lb ?
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Jen,
What kind of winters do you actually have where I lived in upstate New York you could expect the first freeze anytime after the end of September, and you could expect at least 4 months where the temperature would not rise about 30 for any length of time. I don't suspect your winters are quite that bad but 60 pounds is a good round number to make sure that your bee's do not eat them self out of house and home even where I used to live that wasn't the cold that killed the colonies out it was starving after they started massive brood rearing, but before any serious nectar flows start. Leaving 60 lbs ensures they will not run out of stores.
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Jen it has more to do with how long the winter lasts and also how cold and sever the winters are. I am in a region that is 2 week behind you, Iddee is a week or so behind me and northern NC another week. When Jen was having her first swarms last spring most of our hives were clustered up waiting for the weather to warm and the first pollen to be collected and brought into the hive. Her hives were already 8 week in to major brood rearing. The first trigger to encourage the bees to start brood production in the spring is the days getting longer, followed by the bees ability to maintain the brood nest at brood rearing temperature. The next thing that is required is Pollen and Honey with out stored pollen under the capped stored honey the bees will not produce brood. Honey is a shared resource, it is needed to feed the bees thru winter, it is burnt up as fuel heating the hive and maintaining the brood raising temperature, and it is mixed with pollen to feed the brood. all of our hives regardless of where we live have the first brood trigger happening at the same time, so the bees are ready to get going raising brood the first part of January. so the bees are trying to warm up the brood nest and the consumption of winter stores starts. Bees will consume more honey maintaining the cluster temp when the outside temp is -20 that when the temp is 5 deg. Then is is a matter of how long the stores need to last before natural pollen and nectar will come into the hive. With Jen it will be a month before a lot of the other beekeepers on the forum. Another factor is when the bees start to consume the honey that they have stored for winter? If the bees have access to a good fall flow they will be raising abundant brood for winter bees. If not adding to the winter stores they wont be consuming them to survive neither. So fast forwarding to mid October due to not knowing how the fall flow will be in your area. From when the bees are settling into winter in your area i would say 40 lbs will be ample stores to have your hives survive the winter.
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Baker says:
"One of the reasons we don't wrap here is the hive warms up too fast and the colony starts amping up for spring too quickly. Then in late winter we usually have another cold snap and the food stores will be used up too quickly. My point is, your hives maybe warming up early causing the queens to go into spring laying mode early thus contributing to the urge to swarm. Or I could be totally off base. Maybe others will have some thoughts regarding this idea."
I agree 100%.
Jaybird, I am about the same weather as Sacramento. You can adjust from there.
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Good Gravy! :) I've got some serious reading to do here. Getting my breakfast and coffee and then I'll march thru these essays :)
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Barry- "Collectively you're lifting the same weight with you pick it all up at once or, one tenth at a the time. If you're going to do that I would have a spare empty super and use a frame perch and put those 4 or 5 frames on that. This way it stays in sequence and they can be put back in the same way they were taking out
I would have to disagree with the first sentence there. If I lift the entire medium, I'm lifting 60+ pounds straight out at shoulder level. However, If I lift one frame at a time, up to 6 frames, and set them aside in another empty super, and then lift the half empty super at 30 pounds and set it aside, that is a definate reduction of weight lifting, just spread out, or broken up, if you will. Soo much easier on our backs.
Barry- "I would have a spare empty super and use a frame perch and put those 4 or 5 frames on that. This way it stays in sequence and they can be put back in the same way they were taking out
;D That is exactly what i do.. I have an empty super right next to me and line them up the same way they came out ~