Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => Beekeeping 101 => Topic started by: Zweefer on August 25, 2014, 10:22:52 pm
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I was reading a book, and it suggested the following for hive management...
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs4.postimg.cc%2Fhdiqk63zd%2Fhive_manipulation.jpg&hash=2d940be17411cf6172fa9c70446371f222f3b9d3) (http://postimg.cc/image/hdiqk63zd/)
I was wondering how many people actually follow this? I am specifically wondering about the midsummer reduction...
For those who do not use a queen excluder, what do you do?
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I guess to clarify, what do the members on this forum do in terms of hive manipulation / reduction etc. to prepare for winter? This will be my first winter, and would love to be able to claim a zero loss rate ;D
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I'll contribute just a short.
It will depend on your location (regional) for how much you have above the brood chamber. River will be the closest to you and offer some input. But the diagram is very accurate in theory and practical application.
It comes down to space that either is occupied buy bees or will be occupied. When you pull your honey supers off (timing) and there is a die back of bees and they fill two deeps, then why give them any more space. The emerging brood area in the upper deep, hopefully gets back filled with fall flow. If a strong flow is on or likely, you can put the super or 's back on and hope for a refill ;D. If it doesn't get refilled or you don't place it back, then i hope for the entire upper deep to get backfilled and bees are all in the lower deep by late fall and go into winter like this. If there is not a sufficient flow, then you've taken too much honey from them. Have to feed or downsize the colony and provide with surplus from another. Feeding, I don't like !!!
So I save frames of honey in the freezer. My climate is much milder then yours.
To answer part of your question.....Queen exluder has zero effect for prep into winter. If there is brood in that box then there is not enough honey to take and remove any from that box. Some circumstance could effect options.
I hope this was not confusing. Tim
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tim has some good advice zweefer.
right now, our bees, yours and mine here in wisconsin are and have been preparing for winter months. they are or have been back-filling the 2nd deep and pushing the queen down as they do. your carni queens should be slowing down a bit. drones will be dragged out and not allowed back in. your top deep needs to be heavy with honey or syrup, and the outside frames of the bottom deep. the cluster will begin late fall/ winter there, and as winter progresses they will move up, and will need the stores above through winter. if there is not enough stores, then feed syrup until and no later then mid october, (weather and temp dependant, they need to dry the syrup so as not to cause moisture problems in the hive later) and after that, place a shim on to add whatever feed directly over them or add a fondant board. i don't use fondant boards, i like to place feed directly over the bees with or without a shim under the inner cover, without the barrier of a board.
i know you don't have this option, but what i also do is, if i find a hive that is short on stores, (pretty rare with the russkies) i will either feed them back medium frames of uncapped honey with a high moisture content, or deep frames of honey from a previous winter dead out above the inner cover.
in the spring i don't reverse as the diagram shows. the bees move up, and they move down, i have had queens on occasion who didn't move down and wound up reversing, but very few. i place an excluder on when the supers go on with drawn comb for our first flow, dandelions. if i am wanting drawn comb, foundation goes on without the excluder until the foundation is drawn, then the excluder goes on on top the second box. that excluder never gets moved from the top of the second deep. there are times i have pulled it off when the first super is full or near full. for the most part i use the excluder because i typically have comb honey frames in and don't want the queens in the supers, and really don't want queens laying in my supers, and they will. the diagram shows moving the excluder above the first deep mid summer. i disagree with this. the bees know what to do and when, and imho with a strong colony, or any healthy colony, good queen, you will be confining your queen and might contribute to swarming. also your queen needs space to lay up winter bees.
i hope this helps!
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I reverse in the spring if the bees haven't already started raising brood in the lower deep. If they have I don't reverse.
As far as winter prep, I let the bees do what they do, nothing special in the way of manipulations. The only thing I might do is if they are light I may throw some full frames of honey in, or lay some fondant over the inner cover hole for winter.
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Thank you all for the responses. I guess my current concern then, with this being my first year, is when they should be dropping down to one box. I am still seeing a lot of brood in the upper deep...
Garden Hive - yes that made sense. it did answer what i was asking in terms of the excluder (I don't have one). thank you :)
Riverbee - your timeline helps a bit with this - as far as when to help feed, and when to stop, thanks.
Perry - how fast do they go through the fondant if they need to tap into it (how often do you check it in the winter, have you ever had to replace with more)?
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zweefer, i wouldn't be concerned about the brood in the upper deep. the queens have laid/are laying winter bees. at some point you will see a reduction of the brood nest above and the frames being back-filled.
also feed 2:1 syrup, not 1:1 now.
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also feed 2:1 syrup, not 1:1 now.
Harold (Mentor) told me that 2:1 was what you put on any time after August. He said it was easier to convert to honey, and would help with whatever comb was left to be drawn. so already covered :yes:
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great!.... ;)
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I can check once a month to see if they need more, and yes, I have had to add some on occasion.
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I typically do not check the hives after the end of November, until/unless we get a 50 degree day.. it has happened.. Wife and I went horseback riding about five years ago in January with a temp of 64 degrees.. Last winter, I didnt get into the hives from mid November until the end of February.. it was 0 or below that ENTIRE time, often with -50 wind chill.. I put the sugar on top when I winterize for that reason.. with most of the state reporting a 70% loss I only lost One (1) hive, and that hive I expected to lose..
Each hive had 3 to 4 lbs of sugar on the top bars. EVERY hive was about half way through that sugar when I opened in Feb.. It was an unusual winter, but, If you prepare for the worst, your not caught with your pants down when the worst hits. can see pics under the wintering section of my website.
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Scott- are you talking drivert sugar?
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Nope. Plain sugar from the local store. Drivert does not have the anti clumping agents in it and is used for icings and fondant etc.. Good stuff as I understand it, but none of the nearby stores carry it, and they DO have 25 lb bags of normal granulated sugar.. I have been putting normal granulated sugar on top of hives since about 1977.. still waiting for someone to come up with something cheaper that works as well
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might I ask Zweefer from which book/reference did you obtain the sketch? < nice sketch which I myself could use in presentation but the application of this I would suspect is highly related to location. naturally some basic bee biology will not vary by geographical location.
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Scott, from what I have learned to date about drivert sugar, is that it's easier for the bees to digest, that the anti clumping agent could compromise the bees gut. But I don't have solid evidence of this either. Would make a good thread, think I'll do that.
Also, so if your hives appear to have ample honey stores, you put sugar in as well just to be sure? I think I read that in another post..
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Yes...
Last winter was the perfect example Mrs Jen.. The bees had at or over 100 lbs of honey in reserve for every hive.. but it was SO COLD for SO LONG that they stovepiped.. Meaning, they went STRAIGHT up, without moving to the sides to reach ALL of the honey.. Had I not put the sugar on top i would have lost every single hive I had.. Every one of them was well into the sugar by the time I could open the hives in February..
Every winter is not like that thankfully. In fact, last winter was quite abnormal, so MOST beekeepers do not, and did not prepare for such severity, and they paid the price in lost colonies to the tune of 70% loss across the state..
I like the sugar, or sugar cakes because I can dissolve what they do not use into spring syrup.. Most springs will find them still in the honey and not touching the sugar, and thats perfectly splendid.. The sugar gets removed, broken up and dissolved, nothing wasted.. But when they do need it, they have it..
By putting it on in November when I button them up for the winter, I have the confidence to LEAVE THEM ALONE until mid to late February, or even March if I have to.
It is part selfishness, and part pre prevention.. Selfish because I do NOT want to go check my hives when there is a -40 wind chill factor.. I will even blatantly admit I do not want to go check my hives when there is a 20 degree wind chill.. Preventative Starvation Preparedness Prevention allows for Cold weather Avoidance and Coat Donning Procrastination.
Mostly its just how I was taught to do it.. When you have done it a specific way you KNOW works for over 37 years its hard to change.
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I see :) are sugar cakes something that you make?
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Yep!!
I take normal sugar.. Add JUST enough water to get all the sugar damp.. It does NOT take much water to do this.. Run a mixer through it until it is all .. damped? hehe.. Pour it into an aluminum turkey pan and spread out so its about an inch and a half thick. Cut a groove in it half way.. Put in the oven, set on 200 degrees with the door JUST barely cracked open and allow it to dehydrate.. I shut the oven off when I go to bed, take it out in the morning and remove it from the pan..
It will still be a little soft and easy to break if handled roughly.. Set aside in pantry or garage etc until ready to use.. Doesnt mold or go bad.. It does get harder and easier to handle as it ages a little. Plunk one slab on the top bars.. No need for newspaper etc.. It will STILL absorb hive moisture just like the granulated. Its just easier to handle and less of a mess to clean in the spring.
Planning to try it adding a few drops of HBH to it but have not ordered any more.. yet..
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Thanks! I like that idea of HBH :)
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might I ask Zweefer from which book/reference did you obtain the sketch? < nice sketch which I myself could use in presentation but the application of this I would suspect is highly related to location. naturally some basic bee biology will not vary by geographical location.
The Book is Honey bee hobbyist : the care and keeping of bees / by Norman Gary.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs25.postimg.cc%2F4niz3rufv%2Fbook.jpg&hash=7955545967e33560a0dc109d5f03458321b0eba1) (http://postimg.cc/image/4niz3rufv/)
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I've heard of this book, I'll check it out.
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lazy how long do you leave it on with that temp before turning off oven
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Might be an hour, might be two or three.. I just make sure I shut it off before going to bed.
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So i have been looking into what I want to do with my bees this winter, and after looking at the projections (another brutally cold winter), I will definitely be providing a supplement for the gals this winter. I know this has been discussed before (what you put out) and have had answers from pure sugar to fondant to candy boards. My question is this. Is one easier on the bees than the other? With fondant being a bit more pliable and the candy hard, one would think there are differences, but haven't found any info on this yet. and for those who just put pure sugar on, what do you put it on / in? As of right now, I am leaning towards candy as it seems to be the easier of the fondant / candy options. I am still unsure as to the pure sugar method?
Thanks.
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I lay a sheet of newspaper on top of the top bar frames leaving about a 1/2in. gap all around the outside edges. I take a spray bottle of water and lightly spray the newspaper,then spread about a 1/2in. layer of sugar on top of the paper, then spray the sugar lightly with water, then another later of sugar, then water, continue until you have as much as you want to put on? (i usually put 8lbs. on). You will have to make a shim to accommodate the height of the sugar, i make mine about 4in. high. I find this helps keeping condensation from the lid dripping on the cluster. This is the only way left for me, because i have been barred from the kitchen from the last time i made fondant in my wife's kitchen. ;D Jack
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That's what I've done in the past. Newspaper, sugar, empty super, top. Easy-peasy. In the spring, retrieve unused sugar and make syrup. Sugar acts as a desiccant, too.
I have heard of people just putting a bag of sugar on top of the frames with a small hole in the bag.
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hmmmm. that does sound a lot easier than making candy or fondant. is there any issue with the bees having to invert the sugar back? I think i read that the vinegar in the fondant accomplishes that?
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I lay a sheet of newspaper on top of the top bar frames leaving about a 1/2in. gap all around the outside edges. I take a spray bottle of water and lightly spray the newspaper,then spread about a 1/2in. layer of sugar on top of the paper, then spray the sugar lightly with water, then another later of sugar, then water, continue until you have as much as you want to put on? (i usually put 8lbs. on). You will have to make a shim to accommodate the height of the sugar, i make mine about 4in. high. I find this helps keeping condensation from the lid dripping on the cluster. This is the only way left for me, because i have been barred from the kitchen from the last time i made fondant in my wife's kitchen. ;D Jack
That is also my method.. I have also started using some sugar cakes.. You can read about it here;
http://outyard.weebly.com/wintering.html
I am still undecided if its worth making the sugar cakes or not....
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Throwing this out on the table. I was told and have read in dependable sources that drivert sugar is the best way to go for winter feeding. It's a smaller grain sugar that is easier for the bees to get into their mouth and easier to digest.
OH! and for those that don't know, powdered sugar is out of the question because it has corn starch in it and that will make the bees sick ~ Unless of coarse you want to put pure cane sugar into a blender and grind it down your self. That's not a bad option if you don't mind the work :)
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"drivert sugar"
also known as 'bakers sugar' or 'superfine sugar'. some grocery stores do carry it. i think mann lake does, and maybe other beekeep suppliers. it's ground into smaller crystals as jen said. bakers12 might know where to buy it? they still need available water in the hive....moisture....
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Costco sells it, 50 lb bags, don't know price
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ok i've tried the candy board that is on here but i think i had a problem. did what it said and the top seems to be liquidy, if that's a word lol, but with a crust on top of it. i left it in for a few hrs turned off oven then let sit over night. is it suppose to be like this or is there something that i did wrong. help lol
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marty, did you use scott's recipe? the link i sent you, or another recipe?