Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: rodmaker on August 28, 2014, 08:42:37 am
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I have the opportunity to purchase a 2000 hive bee business in its entirety. Trucks forklifts everything. I would also be getting the pollination contracts and out yards. I am 57 years old and have had four major back surgeries . Part of me wants to do this and part is afraid my body won't take the abuse. I need some advise from those who have done this type of thing. Tell me all pros and cons please what am i not seeing.
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I'm not exactly an expert in commercial operations like this but I do know a little about business. And, that's just what this is. Doesn't matter what widget you peddle. Your back? Well, I have had minor pulled muscles and the hives aggravate the heck out of my back when I am not 100%. So, I would say 2000 hives would give you a run for your money, :-\ But, I would say if you have the capital to hire a foreman or right hand man, who has a strong back, go for it!
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The number one injury to bee keepers is heat. Not sure where back injury falls in this. I would venture to guess with a fork lift you are actually going to do less lifting than you would with a few hives without a lift. With 2000 hives you will be hiring help. Let them do the heavy work.
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Rat, you are right sir. I was in my hives yesterday for just 15 minutes, in my Ultra Breeze, and felt like a poo sandwich. I was well hydrated too!
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When I was driving for a commercial keep, during the moving and setting, he would sleep about 3 hours at night and 2 hrs. in the afternoon, for about 3 weeks. That was 4 times a year. It is not for the meek and timid.
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Managing hives as a commerciala operation, especially on that scale, is a totally different ball game. You'll have plenty of work to do, you'll need hired help, have the "pleasure" of managing complicated accounting (salaries, income, expenses, taxes, depreciation....) and, worst of all, you'll have litttle time or interest for enjoying the art of beekeeping. Each hive no longer has its own personality. The hives become money machines that have to be "milked" to their maximum.
Your personallity, not just your physical fitness and your age should be the deciding factor.
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I have 2 hives, living in central Florida, I religiously suit up totally, after a hour of hive inspection, (unlike most beekeepers I use only deeps). I was drenched in sweat, glasses dripping sweat, lugging 70+ pound supers around shifting frames around in hive bodies. I was exhausted, and sore a bit. I to have back issues but I can't see a day I will not do as I am doing things....stubborn I suppose lol but a desirable beekeeping trait for there is a certainly..... Shangri la in beekeeping is elusive at best.
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I think the fact that you WILL be hiring help is of major importance. Finding that one person who will run things as you want them run is another matter.
I have my own issues with my back. I have no major problems, but find that doing something silly sets it off at odd times. I can carry a railroad tie on my shoulder and not have a problem.. BUT, if I simply sit up on my creeper after sliding out from under a truck.... It will hit and I have to CRAWL to my own truck to get home... I am considering a similar venture. My plan is;
I would give it 5 years, and I would work HARD to make it work in that time.. at the end of that time? If I was still enjoying it I would probably expand further. If it was too hard on me I would put the business back up for sale. Having worked HARD for 5 years SHOULD increase the capital and net worth.
There is also quite a learning curve to consider.. Feeding and spraying both come to mind.
Do you have the time to oversee this operation? The resources to call in truckers to haul the bees?
My wife VERY BADLY wants me to buy property in Maine so we can start pollinating our friends blueberry fields.. THEIR fields alone will provide a net profit of 200K + per year.. I have just not managed to get my head around the logistics of moving, caring for, and feeding two to four thousand hives between Iowa and Maine..
The vast amount of start up money also makes me take a step back. Yes, we have it, but is this what I want to spend it on? It will take Me two or three years to build up to that number of production hives, which means less income during that time..
You do have the advantage of a pre started business and being CLOSE to where you need to have the bees.
So you need to ask yourself.. Is this what I want to do? How will this affect my family/wife?
If you WANT to do this, and your wife is behind you... Your standing on the yellow brick road..
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Do you have a son, daughter, sun in-law, a grand child, to enter into this business with you. Some one you can teach and that will be willing to take over the business when the time comes. Hive inspections of the brood area require skill but the brood boxes aren't that heavy hone super adding and removal doesn't require as much skills and can be done by employes with a younger stronger backs.
When you say perches are you talking buying the farm? Land, extracting buildings, house, or just the equipment and then need to construct buildings and extracting facilitates?
How mobile is the operation? Almond pollination, then dose he do orchard pollination up the cost, then onto blueberry in Washington state for blueberry. Then follow the bloom to Wyoming, Nebraska and the Dakota's for honey production and canola pollination? Or was he set up for queen and package bee production, and if he is how dose the invasion of African bees into California going to effect the business long term?
There is great potential to maximize the out put and even expand. Start with almond pollination, then queens and packages, pollination following the spring bloom up the coast to the Canadian border then onto the prairies for honey production then back home to California in October to winter. But to maximize the output from every hive takes 2 residents and a lot of equipment.
I'm not saying it is a good or bad idea but encourage you to look at the way he has been running his business and the contracts that are in place. Also the potential to grow the business, or having to modify do to changing conditions Such as small hive beetles or African bees.
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How hot is Madera County California? I'm in a suit, outside temp is about 92, humidity about 60%, and I have one hive to go and I'm taking an a/c break. I have never sprung for an ultra breeze but heat tolerance, and adequate hydration, are vital for beekeeping. I tend to twist a vertebrae midback on heavy lifts, probably muscle buildup heavier on one side, so I get help for heavy lifting.
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I have observed that when a tough job gets big enough to warrant buying the tools to handle it, then the job gets easier. i.e., the forklift vs manually handling the hives. (I think somebody said something similar to this) So I think the back would hold up, but you would know more about that than any body else.
Hiring help would be a big deal to me. Having the right foreman would be essential.
Take a long look at what kind of shape their equipment is in. Especially the big ticket items. Are you going to have to buy new forklifts in the next year to two? What about the extracting/bottling equipment? Is all that in good shape? How much is it going to cost to get everything like it should be?
The other thing that I would have to do is to look at their books. See what the bottom line is telling you, & compare that against their asking price. Then you have got to ask how long it will take to get your head above water. Two years? Five years? Ten years? How old will you be when you break water? At 57 your not going to be spring chicken when it pays off. When looking at the books, find a big ticket item & see if you can self perform some of that to save $$$.
Don't forget to add the cost of new equipment into your equation when trying to determine how long it will take to pay it all off.
It sounds exciting to me if everything checked out right. My sister has a pecan farm for sale, & I'm just slobbering all over myself when I think of buying that place. She has about 2,000 pecan trees & it is definitely a full time job! I don't think my wife shares in my excitement, so it's probably going to be a NO! LOL! I would love not having to see pavement everyday.
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Bee- "Take a long look at what kind of shape their equipment is in. Especially the big ticket items. Are you going to have to buy new forklifts in the next year to two? What about the extracting/bottling equipment? Is all that in good shape? How much is it going to cost to get everything like it should be?
Really Good Advice! And, do you have any knowlege of working on this kind of equipment yourself
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thank you for ALL opinions and things to look for . With my background the trucks and forklifts are no problem. I have the next two days scheduled for going over equipment and his books and contracts to see if they are transferable. I will know on saturday if i want to proceed with this business or not. I worked construction and helped build two companies so i want to try and build a business for myself. The money is not what i am looking for as i am quite comfortable now just need something to help keep me going.
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best wishes to you rodmaker on your decision!..... :yes:
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Best of luck which ever way the coin falls;)
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A new adventure on the way ;D
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Best of luck to you, and let us know what you decide. I almost wish it was me! ;D
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I would ask you the question, I this something you will regret if you DON'T do it?
If you feel you have sufficient beekeeping and business knowledge, I think your bad back is a secondary concern. I agree with someone who suggested that you have 100 percent support from your spouse.
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I am late getting into this conversation, so apologies.
I am 56 1/2 rodmaker, so we are alike in that regards.
I have grown my set-up slowly, and as a result have had the luxury of being able to adjust gradually as my numbers increased.
I have also had the insight through my inspection work the last 2 years, to be able to work and see how things can be, and are done on some commercial levels, and I can honestly say, and without any doubt, it is not for me. Absolutely no disrespect meant towards those that do it on that level, it is just not for me.
I consider myself truly fortunate to have stumbled across this thing of ours when I did (age 40), and often wish I had done so earlier in my life, things might have played out differently. But at my age, physical limits are indeed different, emotional and stress levels become more of an issue. I love what I do so much that I cannot comprehend jeoprodizing it and losing the joy of it by turning it into something more than what it is (if that makes any sense).
If things go badly for a year or two, will you have sufficient time to recover?
I do not wish to dampen enthusiasm for what may an opportunity of a lifetime, merely temper it with some views from a different angle.
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I don't think your back is an issue. With an operation of this size, you will be a full time manager. It's going to take a lot of planning and dispatching to move that many hives.
My other concern is what happens if this goes south? If you work at this a few years, and lose money how will it effect your retirement? Your knowledge of heavy equipment is no concern, but how much to you know about commercial beekeeping? Can you hire the seller's foreman?
Finally, do not be rushed into a decision. Good negotiations usually take more time than most people think. Keep on talking and questioning until all of your questions have been answered. Most bad decisions are made in haste. Theres an old saying in business, "purchase in haste, repent in leisure."
Good luck
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I, too, agree with all that has been said. A couple things I haven't seen mentioned at all are:
1) Workers' Comp insurance. Yeah, it's great to have other folks do much of the heavy lifting, moving, inspecting, and so on... What happens if/when one of them permanently messes up their back when they turn holding a 90 pound super and wrenches their back something awful, or drops a deep with 60,000 bees and they attack...
2) Liability insurance for some knucklehead trespassing and deciding to kick "those drawer things" over... (in MA, even if you fence an area off with razor-wire, have NO TRESPASSING signs every 10', and flashing neon signs saying KEEP OUT!!!!... if someone gets hurt when they're where they don't belong, it's still your fault!)
3) Your back has been mentioned a lot. OK, so you have employees to HELP you... You have a fork truck to lift pallets of complete hives... If you enjoy the work, you're going to be out there working too. Lifting those 90 pound supers. Can you take that? Is it worth the risk?
4) Turning a hobby into a job... will it ruin the fun and enjoyment in it? Will you still experience the excitement when you see how fast a single hive managed to draw out a couple frames of virgin foundation?
That being said, I think it sounds REALLY cool and if you can take the risks involved... GO FOR IT! Keep us posted!!!
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2) Liability insurance for some knucklehead trespassing and deciding to kick "those drawer things" over... (in MA, even if you fence an area off with razor-wire, have NO TRESPASSING signs every 10', and flashing neon signs saying KEEP OUT!!!!... if someone gets hurt when they're where they don't belong, it's still your fault!)
if someone gets hurt when they're where they don't belong
That is why we own a backhoe AND an excavator..
Nope, didnt see anyone that matches that description, sorry!
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Well i have spent some time checking out this operation and i will not be buying it. The equipment is worn out for the most part,the only thing of value is the bees, the rest will need to be replaced soon. The biggest reason is my better half does not really want me to go back to full time work she is afraid i will lose all the benefits the bees have brought me.
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It's often tough to see the downsides of a venture that sounds like it should be fun! Congrats to you for seeing through the blinders that we, as humans, often wear.
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You are a wise man Rod.
1. You checked it all out.
2. Listening to your wife's opinion.
Many years ago I learned that the most valuable part of beekeeping is the equipment and not the bees. Sounds ironic, especially on a beekeeping forum, but when you get down to brass tacks, your ability to manage the bees depends to a great extent on the quality of the equipment. If you invest and find that you are soon bogged down with having to replace all sorts of "hardware", you'll be paying for the business twice. In the process, you'll be losing bees and it will take its toll on your health (not just your back).
You have a smart wife. Now that together you've reached a decision, take her out for a nice dinner in celebration.
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Well Rod! You opened up a good thread here, all the comments are an eye opener for us and future beeks Thanks!
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Well i have spent some time checking out this operation and i will not be buying it. The equipment is worn out for the most part,the only thing of value is the bees, the rest will need to be replaced soon. The biggest reason is my better half does not really want me to go back to full time work she is afraid i will lose all the benefits the bees have brought me.
I couldn't agree more!
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Perry- "I have grown my set-up slowly, and as a result have had the luxury of being able to adjust gradually as my numbers increased.
This meant a lot to me Perry ~ ;)
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Thank you everyone for your thoughts . It was a hard choice for me to make but my wife really made me see things in a different light. She has been with me for thirty nine years and she knows when i do something i do it with all i have and she does not want me working that hard any more. She is a lot smarter than i am and she stayed with me for the four years i spent in bed not being able to move due to my back problems and she does not want me to go through that again. With all that said i will just keep going with what i have with bees and keep it a hobby and enjoyable.
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Hey Rodmaker.
I think you made a wise decision. You can still make it more than a hobby. Try bumping up to 50 over a bit, and see how it fits. With a few pieces of the right equipment you may find that it really isn't too hard, you can have fun, and actually make few bucks in the process. You will not get rich, but you will enjoy what you make.
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Sounds like you are at peace with your decision. You can feel good about it now.
Oh, and go kiss the wife!
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Rodmaker;
Sounds like you have a good woman standing beside you! Like Ef said, take her out for a NICE dinner!!
Knowing that your spouse is a good one, do what Perry said.. grow a little at a time, and have HER keep an eye on you.. It will often be the better half that tells us we have gone from fun to work before WE realize we have crossed the line.
Glad you will not be inundated with bee work though.. I still need to get that rod ordered!! ;D
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"It was a hard choice for me to make but my wife really made me see things in a different light. She has been with me for thirty nine years and she knows when i do something i do it with all i have and she does not want me working that hard any more. She is a lot smarter than i am and she stayed with me for the four years i spent in bed not being able to move due to my back problems and she does not want me to go through that again. With all that said i will just keep going with what i have with bees and keep it a hobby and enjoyable."
sometimes rodmaker, our spouses are the 'compass' in our lives, and sometimes annoying......i have one of those...... :D
but they keep us centered.....yes?........ 39 years? congratulations. you have a great 'compass'.......
enjoy, enjoy, enjoy!