Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: Jen on October 01, 2014, 02:54:26 pm
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I haven't been in this hive for about a month. I want to get into it tomorrow Thursday, and do a last inspection. I know things could be different since last inspection. Last inspection showed a small amount of capped brood on the center frame in the deep. The center medium full of capped brood. Top medium full of honey/ruby syrup.
Our nights are getting down to about 40 degrees.
What I want to know is: If the deep is now empty of any brood, larvae, eggs, should I remove this deep for this year, bringing the two mediums down to the bench top for winter?
Or: if there is still a small amount of brood, larvae, eggs in the deep.. should I leave the hive configuration alone for the winter?
medium - honey
medium - capped brood
Deep - empty except for a small amount of brood in center, has been this way all summer.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs29.postimg.cc%2F9vvjdqlwj%2FDSCF0790.jpg&hash=88cd4158c5abb02ddebde98cd4fb54fb51140e99) (http://postimg.cc/image/9vvjdqlwj/)
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Jen asks: " If the deep is now empty of any brood, larvae, eggs, should I remove this deep for this year, bringing the two mediums down to the bench top for winter? "
That's an easy question---if it's empty, definitely remove it.
Then she asks: " if there is still a small amount of brood, larvae, eggs in the deep.. should I leave the hive configuration alone for the winter?"
That's a tougher question to answer. Depending on how much brood etc. are in the deep, you might just leave it alone. You face one of the didfficulties of working with mixed sized frames since you can't move the deep frames up. In an extreme situation you MIGHT consider rearranging by moving the medium frames down, replacing the empty deep frames and removing the medium super. But that is really a tough call. Again, depending on how much is in the deep, you might just prefer to leave things as they are.
It's a call you can only make when you've opened the hive and see what you are facing.
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I don't know your area, but you may be surprised at what you find after a month. If there has been a decent flow, you may find that middle medium has been backfilled with nectar and the queen and brood forced down into the bottom deep, a typical fall movement for the bees.
Do they have fall in California? ;D
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Lol Yep we usually have a nice long Fall season, AND we had a long late summer flow. That would be so incredibly Cool if I find that tomorrow! Crossing fingers... Thanks Perry ;D
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jen, i would want to know what's in that deep, and the two mediums before answering your question. if this hive hasn't been checked in a month, like perry and ef said, really difficult to answer your question without some description/certainty of what's in those boxes.....
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Okee Doke, for sure I will take pics, I'm anxious to see what is happening in this hive cause we had a nice long late summer flo. What I'm really hoping is that there will be no more ruby honey ;)
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Inspected this hive yesterday. This is the hive that Perry suggested that maybe the bees took the queen down to fill up the deep. No bad news really, just isn't any different than this summer. What I think this hive has is a 'dink', a term I learned from Tec, I think meaning a queen that doesn't work past a certain point. In this hives case she hasn't gone past one medium hive box all summer long. She is one of my swarmy queens.
Saw the queen, haven't seen her in a long time, she's a shy one
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs15.postimg.cc%2F3xbw8eesn%2FDSCF0812.jpg&hash=eebe70cd21d3bc36933bbdf8a572418e6ddaf35b) (http://postimg.cc/image/3xbw8eesn/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs4.postimg.cc%2Fntq03fv4p%2FDSCF0790.jpg&hash=89543e9fe4827a8e88b777aa17107610fcbdd914) (http://postimg.cc/image/ntq03fv4p/)
medium
medium
Deep
TOP MEDIUM: First frame all ruby honey Boooooooooooooo!
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs27.postimg.cc%2F5iftif9en%2FDSCF0802.jpg&hash=006961ad8c5a205e1efd866d882f86c4ace574cd) (http://postimg.cc/image/5iftif9en/)
Then all the rest of the frames looked like this Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs14.postimg.cc%2Fle74wtqkd%2FDSCF0803.jpg&hash=6c47646497d95056df91e46542ef8fdb2fbe70f6) (http://postimg.cc/image/le74wtqkd/)
MIDDLE MEDIUM: First two frames like this, then additional frames have plenty of capped brood, tiny larvae and medium size larvae. Queen still going strong.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs28.postimg.cc%2Fgbhcqs4ex%2FDSCF0805.jpg&hash=ebd023dbe9d30e3b45c0d4317ef4999273bdbb0e) (http://postimg.cc/image/gbhcqs4ex/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs28.postimg.cc%2Fv8uf5j715%2FDSCF0806.jpg&hash=a179f914f6fc54953142afe5a72a5c940d820fcb) (http://postimg.cc/image/v8uf5j715/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.postimg.cc%2F6gsmedl2j%2FDSCF0808.jpg&hash=0b9abe6d243b655fd4181bf5be3f7f1c492e9d1b) (http://postimg.cc/image/6gsmedl2j/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.postimg.cc%2Fxsnvfppt7%2FDSCF0809.jpg&hash=948dc6803359ce0bf5d67ccb97c786f99395f7a7)[/url
BOTTOM DEEP: No eggs, larvae, capped brood at all. Mostly the bees are storing whatever they find in this deep.
[url=http://postimg.cc/image/z5kz6d91r/](https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs27.postimg.cc%2Fz5kz6d91r%2FDSCF0815.jpg&hash=772f34d35ea70684ae44c9dbd3afa6412fad8a95) (http://postimg.cc/image/xsnvfppt7/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs27.postimg.cc%2F3xll0iy33%2FDSCF0817.jpg&hash=17b892a0a258d5eba8e2f24b530f1030b68717b1) (http://postimg.cc/image/3xll0iy33/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs27.postimg.cc%2F68op1tf67%2FDSCF0818.jpg&hash=21fee21a19e5b36af235be39ac8f67331b8ced28) (http://postimg.cc/image/68op1tf67/)
I'm thinking to leave this hive alone for another 2-3 weeks or closer to November. Then maybe kick out the deep?
What say you? :)
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I don't see the point of getting rid of the deep. There's 20 or 30 pounds of honey in there that could well come in handy in the spring. A winter cluster does not heat the hive to a significant degree, so the extra volume is not a concern. Some of the foundation is getting quite travel stained and will not likely result in perfectly drawn frames, but you never know, in a good spring flow they might finish them up anyway.
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Good Morning Pete :) travel stained?... hmm... haven't heard that term before...
You mean the very dark foundation?
Oh! and by the way, I figured that because this middle medium is full of bees and brood and appear to be strong and healthy... and the top medium is chauk full of honey, I helped myself to two frames of honey. So if a 10 frame medium is full of honey that would be 60 pounds... so if I took two frames out, that leaves approx 40 pounds of honey for them, and hopefully that will be enough for another predicted long winter... right?
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No, Jen, a 60 lb. medium is 30 lb. tare and 30 lb. net. You took 6 lbs. honey and left 24 lb.
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Hi Iddee ~ Oh boy, there is that bee math. Okay, so is there is enough honey in this super to feed this medium of bees this winter?
See, I'm not a calculative person, I will find visual tools. If I have a medium brood box full of capped brood, larvae, eggs... how many frames of honey do I need to get them thru the winter ?
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Upper Calif. isn't too specific a spot.
Willows or Orland, 40 lb. Dunsmuir or Susanville, 100 lb. or more.
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One hundred pounds for one medium of bees? That would be 3 honey supers on one medium brood box....
May I ask where you obtained this information?
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No, for one hive of bees to winter on.
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Jen that would be 3 full medium supers( 90 pounds ) per hive if you reside in Dunsmuir or Susanville or area's of similar winter climatic conditions. And might still be short if conditions are too rough. The medium of bees means nothing, it's the actual colony strength and how much of the colony strength is of older bees going into winter cluster. If your trying to overwinter a 10 pound ball of bees that are younger, expect more honey consumption then one cluster same size but larger proportion of older bees that will die off in larger numbers.
And bear in mind, it's not feeding the adult that will really deplete the stores, but the rapid expansion of the brood rearing with spring...when most bees that are going to starve...will starve, after surviving the winter.
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I do a honey frame count around this time of year to determine winter stores. I run all deeps. A full deep honey frame is about 6 lbs of honey. So I add up all the full ones, and estimate the partials. Typically I will have the top deep full of honey, and the bottom deep about 1/3 full of partials. This gives me around 80 lbs of honey to winter on, which is enough to get them through five months of zero nectar. Typically they will have a couple of frames left over at the end of march. A longer winter does not always mean more stores are needed. Around here spring comes hard and fast, so there is not a really long time from brood rearing ramp up to spring flows.
With your medium frames you can do the same math, just assume that each full frame = 3lbs. honey. looking at you pictures, I'd guess you have about 25 to 30 lbs in the top medium, about 15 lbs in the middle medium,
and another 15 to 20 in the deep. that's pretty close to your target weight.
The good news is that if you have a light hive, you can feed them in the spring when it warms up. I know nothing about your winters, but would guess that 60 Lbs of honey would be a safe number to shoot for, regardless of the colony strength.
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Pete- "and another 15 to 20 in the deep.
I hadn't counted the capped hummer syrup in the deep because I didn't figure the bees to 'go down' to get food for the cluster above, I think I remember that they will chimney up. But then, it occured to me that as the days warm up a bit they will probably go down to the deep and use up that food and then then queen will start laying... hopefully :-\
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jen, thanks for the great pix, nice looking queen, some queens/hives do better than others, but she sure is laying a good pattern from that one pic.
about your deep, i would remove it. move it out, store it, the bees will not move down during winter months to get any feed out of there on these frames. come spring pop it back on top, there's feed in there. the bees/queen will move up, she will lay and the bees will work that deep with a honey flow on or syrup on and fill it out to the point that you can reverse it and get it back on the bottom where you want it. they don't need that extra empty space underneath. if you are not comfortable with that, pull it out, and get it on top for them to move up into. being on the bottom does no good.
my HO, just move it out until spring..... ;)
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And where are those pictures and that hive inspection report?
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Hi Gypsi, those pics and report are on the thread "Pre Fall Inspection On Hive #4'. Just finished that inspection yesterday.
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oooops... exhaustion hit. Now I have to go to sleep and look tomorrow, it's 12:34 here, and it was a very long day
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What if she put the deep on top of the brood-filled medium? Wouldn't the cluster move up, consume what's there, and move on to the honey-filled medium on top? Or is that just too much empty space to keep warm?
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I repeat Iddee's comment: "Upper Calif. isn't too specific a spot."
To give any relevant advice about the winter stores you should expect to need, one would have to know a lot more about your local climate. From a short "tour" of "upper California" on the internet, it is obvious that the region has a great deal of variety in the winter cold to be expected---how cold and for how long. Knowing both of these factors is vital in planning proper stores for a hives' successful wintering. Another factor would be how long the weather stays unremittingly cold---if warm spells are expected during the cold of winter weather, the bees might have enough time to break their cluster and reorganize stocks placed in different supers.
How about giving us a map location of your home town?
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My big hive queen was laying upstairs, the bottom was getting alot of pollen and bee bread and honey. I condensed them into one deep, regardless of frame height (bees will build a medium down to fill a deep), and gave them an empty medium on top a month ago. With one frame of honey, to get the queen to lay downstairs and them to store upstairs. So far they are still mainly storing downstairs, not enough wax flow to draw out the frames on that empty medium on top, but the queen is indeed laying in the deep. Yesterday I newspaper combined on a medium with drawn frames and half full of honey and older worker bees storing syrup, and syrup. When they have come through the newspaper I will remove the empty medium.
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My question for you River: if the bees wont' move down in the winter to get food, why is the bottom brood box usually completely empty in the spring time (at least mine seem to be). I don't open my bees up till it gets fairly warm, so it could well be that the bottom deep doesn't get cleaned out till spring. I always thought that the cluster forms at the bottom of the hive and gradually moves up during the winter.
We don't have wax moth or SHB up here, that may well affect management styles too.
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Led- "What if she put the deep on top of the brood-filled medium? Wouldn't the cluster move up, consume what's there, and move on to the honey-filled medium on top? Or is that just too much empty space to keep warm?
I'm reading and answering as I go along
Led, I've been keeping for 4 years now, but the first 3 years were calamity after calamity because I didn't have a mentor or proper forum. This last January I joined this forum and I have learned soo much. So in fact this last January I went back to square one and concidered myself a beginner again.
So this is what I 'think' I know about your question.
Yes, it wouldn't be good to have that much dead cold space above the bees, they need their winter food right close to them. During the serious cold snaps they will not break cluster to walk up to the food that is at the top of the deep frame and walk back with that food. The closer the food is to the cluster the better. Otherwise they will starve to death.
So in my opinion of Riv's suggestion, that is why the deep would go on top. So when then weather starts to warm up and the cluster starts to loosen and move about, they will then be more inclined to go up further to retreive that stored food in the deep frames.
Okay, so let's see how I did as far as offering correct knowledge :) 8)
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"My question for you River: if the bees wont' move down in the winter to get food, why is the bottom brood box usually completely empty in the spring time (at least mine seem to be). I don't open my bees up till it gets fairly warm, so it could well be that the bottom deep doesn't get cleaned out till spring. I always thought that the cluster forms at the bottom of the hive and gradually moves up during the winter.
We don't have wax moth or SHB up here, that may well affect management styles too."
pete, a great question. the cluster does form at the bottom, because the bees have 'forced' the queen down storing for winter months in the top deep. the bottom box empties typically well before we realize it is. the bees use these resources, sometimes, not always, before they move up. also throw in your breed of bee, and how conservative or not they are. sometimes we will find honey remaining in outer frames and the colony starved in the top deep, totally empty of any honey. or we thought that bottom deep had stores in it, and it didn't to begin with. sometimes we think that bottom deep has stores in it, when it does not. i always check before cold weather sets in to see that there are frames of stores in that bottom deep. not sure how to explain this, but i can gauge when a hive is top heavy as cold weather progresses. the bees do not move down, or will not go for those resources, if any, in the bottom deep, and sometimes in very cold weather will not move from side to side in the top deep. in warm spring months, i often find honey in the outer frames in the bottom deep.
i hope i answered your question?
my management practice in general is not to place or leave any box on a hive that the bees cannot protect or defend. ants, waxmoth, mice, or other pests/critters. and bees tend to chew wax from unused drawn comb to repurpose elsewhere. in my HO it makes more sense to me to remove jen's deep in the near future that contains feed in it and to place it on top at a time when it is most needed, be it now or later. in winter months, we can't exactly reverse our hives to put the feed on top for the bees to utilize, because we know the bees move upwards.
looking at jen's photos, it would appear the bees have tried to ready the deep frames for the queen to lay in, and it also appears some wax has been chewed? the queen didn't move down, and i highly doubt she will now. if jen had a different configuration, she could have moved the queen down, (same size frames) or reversed.... i don't remember the history of the hive? and maybe jen, you tried this? was this deep on top? and maybe the queen didn't move down to lay because there was a honey cap there?
if jen, you had time in your climate, you might consider placing that deep on top and feed them with a one gallon pail of 2:1 til the bees packed away some extra feed in that top deep. i don't know if you have time for this. they will need time to 'cure' this before your winter sets in. i am thinking you might not? another option would be to consider placing a shim on for winter feed, or candy/fondant board on. or just pinch that queen and combine?
i think apis at one time suggested that he thought you could overwinter your bees with a deep and a super with no problem jen? pete suggested 60 pounds for your area, looking up your location, pete may be right on about this.
also, consider your bee genetics, italians can really blow through stores.
hope this helps?
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Another mistake I think most folks make is thinking bees have several boxes, deep, med., and shallow. NOPE!
Bees have a one room house. They work it from the top down most times, but can vary at times. It is still one box to them. If we would talk areas of the hive, like top, center, and bottom, rather than deeps and mediums, we could understand how the bees act much better.
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A deep and a super are enough in Texas provided fondant is fed.
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"Bees have a one room house. They work it from the top down most times, but can vary at times."
....this is the reason i do not reverse my hives in the spring, and the reason that i add extra space to the bottom (a new deep or bottom) rather than on the top when building a new colony started in a single deep in the spring and early summer months.
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Well now that is interesting. but when you add honey supers in flow in spring do you add to the top or the bottom?
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gypsi, when i add honey supers i do add them to the top. iddee brought up a good point about how bees move in a 'space' , but they always store honey at the top, so my supers go on top....
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Riv- "if jen, you had time in your climate, you might consider placing that deep on top and feed them with a one gallon pail of 2:1 til the bees packed away some extra feed in that top deep. i don't know if you have time for this. they will need time to 'cure' this before your winter sets in.
This is probably in my book... but how long does it take for sugar syrup or nectar to cure?