Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: Jen on October 06, 2014, 01:05:06 pm
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I stepped outside to empty the garbage and saw this... the upper entrance is clustered with bees. No aggression at all, but there are about 3-4 pairs of bees on the grounds rolling around. I spotted the queen on the top edge of the lid, ran and got my queen cage and nabbed her.
She would have had to come thru the upper entrance, this means she left the brood medium which is two mediums down, then came across the honey and out the upper entrance.
I don't know what to do! and I'm heading for the airport in a couple of hours.
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well, put her back in there!......... :P
are you sure this is this hive's queen jen?
are the bees acting aggressively towards her in that clip?
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leave her in the clip in hive til you get back from airport. She may not be the only queen
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or put clip in OPEN envelope, allow air not too much and stick her on top of your refrigerator til you get home. Haste makes messy situations
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No Riv, they are very quiet, just keeping her covered.
I guess then that I could take the lid off and let her back in thru the hole of the inner cover? or should I scoot the honey medium over a bit and make sure she goes right back into the brood box
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scoot the honey medium over a little, and let her loose in the brood box, she should go down in the hive, not sure what she was doing wandering around.
if they are very quiet and protecting her, good sign.
if your not sure about it, do as gypsi said, and then figure out if there's another queen in there when you return from the airport.
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jen, did you recently treat this hive with OA? or have it open in the past couple days, or yesterday?
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Yep, I treated with OA a week ago, then did an inspection three days ago. This is the hive we have been disgussing whether to remove the deep all together or place it on top and let the bees fill it out more and feeding.
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hmm, okay.......
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I would release her into the bottom entrance, just because it is easiest, and any odor she is trying to escape from will be lighter down there.
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Mkay, that's a good idea... Iddee are your relatively sure she belongs to this hive?
This is what the top entrance looks like now that she has been caged and it's been about an hour. I have her and some attendance in the cage and in a small box with the lid open just a tiny bit in the garage, can she stay like this until late this afternoon, it's 11:00am here now.
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If she is from another hive, I would want her dead.
Put a drop of honey or sugar water on the cage and she should be fine.
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Iddee- "If she is from another hive, I would want her dead.
The thing I want to know is, can you tell from your experience, and by the cluster of bees that are still at the upper entrance, if this could be her hive.
Or, did you mean, that if I put her back in the lower entrance, if she's not the queen, the bees will kill her anyway?
Okay, I'll put a drop of honey on the cage until I get back from the airport.
Thanks you guys!
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jen, you have the quirkiest bees on the planet. i agree with iddee about sending her through the bottom entrance, rather than opening up to the brood box. if the bees weren't trying to ball her, or bite, or sting her (kill her) through the queen clip, and appeared to be protecting her. it's her hive.
EDIT AND ADD:
ps maybe the queen will get a clue now and lay some in the bottom deep she seems to be avoiding......... :D
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I think she just stepped outside her own hive to escape an odor she didn't like.
If she is from another hive, I would not want to keep a queen that abandoned her hive, so let the bees do the deed.
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would guess maybe as iddee said, an odor that sent her out jen. being not familiar with oxalic acid, and a recent treatment of the hive, this would be my guess.
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my interest in treating with OA went out the door with that queen. My 48 hour sticky results are 2 - 4 and 2. I will recheck when it cools off again and after some brood hatches out, but I'm not treating for the moment.
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Riv- "jen, you have the quirkiest bees on the planet. i agree with iddee about sending her through the bottom entrance, rather than opening up to the brood box. if the bees weren't trying to ball her, or bite, or sting her (kill her) through the queen clip, and appeared to be protecting her. it's her hive.
No Kidding Right! Barry says I have Special Ed bees... I say I have Gifted bees Aahhahaha
Ya, there was no aggression going on at all, it appeared as tho the bees were quietly covering her while in the cage.
Just got back home and the top entrance is clear, I'll have to take off the robbing screen so I can make sure she goes thru the bottom entrance. Then put it back on.
I may have an answer for this, I'll get back to ya later.
Gypsi, I have done many applications of OA and have never run into this sitch before. And, OA doens't smell anything as yucky and Formic Acid. But, then again, I done have a bee nose either... shrug :)
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Update - That took about 15 minutes. Interesting event here, I took the queen in clip plus about 7 attendants to the bottom opening. Took the robbing screen off so I could be sure and see her come out and walk into the hive. When I opened up the clip there were bees on her and definately one that I know for sure was stinging her. Yup! somethings wrong.
So I did what Iddee said and will let the bees take care of it, she definately disappeared inside whether walked or dragged. I'll keep a look out on the ground for her tomorrow ~
So many questions now. How should I proceed from this point.
It's late in the year, so if they make another queen...well I'm not seeing hardly and drones, most are dead on the ground.
Should I wait two weeks and try and find a queen or eggs? Can she even get mated this time of year?
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I would look in one week. No eggs and no queen cells, combine.
My guess is, you will have eggs and open brood of all ages, and all will be fine.
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At this time of year if they have been running a 2 queen hive they were throwing her out. I've had it happen. And I put her back in and put her back in when what I should have done was put her and that half a cup of attendants in a nuc. Which if you find her outside, alive and attended tomorrow, is what I suggest you do. It is a bit cooler where you are, but she may already be mated AND there may be another mated queen in that hive. It happens
In which case you will have eggs and/or brood. And who knows, maybe a nuc to build up over the winter. I've done it. (but I have Texas bees and they are Tough critters.
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Gypsi- "Which if you find her outside, alive and attended tomorrow, is what I suggest you do.
I like this bit of advice, it's either this or a combine, time will tell. And by the way, this beek is a tough critter ;) 8)
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The nuc will hopefully guarantee only one queen per hive. There is always a risk when queens fight, that both will die.
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As well, it has crossed my mind late this summer that the hive next to this one could be combined with this wandering queen hive, neither one has produced much. One has half a medium full of bees, and the other has half a deep full of bees. Both queens are 'dinks'. So, then in the spring, I could buy a new marked queen and replace the dinks.
See, this kind of problem solving is going to prevent dementia for me... that's the up side :)
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I have stacked smaller hives on top of each other with a double layer screen between them for warmth in winter and while I decided which queen to keep, and just seen how they do. There are a lot of options. First thing is clip the wandering queen and check the hive for another one I think
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Gypsi- "There are a lot of options. First thing is clip the wandering queen and check the hive for another one I think
Good idea, the only thing is, when I open up the hive to find the wandering queen, and clip her, then find another queen, how do I know which one is the wandering queen? Or, does it really matter? Leave both queens in and like Iddee said, let the bees do the dirty work...
On of the scenerios in my head:
It has occured to me in my junior knowledge of beekeeping that this may be a small swarm from one of the neighboring hives. Maybe they lifted out and landed on top of next door hive?
I have been reading posts of several who are finding very small swarms this late in the season.
I think I'll first go with Iddee's suggestion and wait one week, check for queen and/or eggs, if there aren't any signs, combine. In the meantime watch for and events like this again, then the plans will change.
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Update ~ Uh Oh! dead queen on the ground in front of the hive, a lucky break to find her.
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Beek Sherlock Jen working the clues, working the clues....
Clue process of elimination:
I do know at this point that she is not from one of my two hives that have marked queens. Which narrows down my sharp hunting instincts for answers.
Just came back from the hive, lifted the lid and there is no roar, a definate clue that there may still be a queen residing in this hive.
Adjusted plan for now... I'll do a hive check tomorrow to see if there is a queen inside. If I find her, I'll check the hive next door and see if there is a queen in there.
If there is a queen in both colonies... Then I have no clue where yesterdays wandering queen came from. Time will tell
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I would look in one week. No eggs and no queen cells, combine.
I agree with Iddee. Combine if now eggs. Do it soon though and make sure you have plenty of stores.
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Hi Scott :) If I do the combine I will have a half full deep of bees, and a half full medium of bee. Then I would have almost two full mediums of honey to go on top of that.
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"Update ~ Uh Oh! dead queen on the ground in front of the hive, a lucky break to find her....Adjusted plan for now... I'll do a hive check tomorrow to see if there is a queen inside. If I find her, I'll check the hive next door and see if there is a queen in there. If there is a queen in both colonies... Then I have no clue where yesterdays wandering queen came from. Time will tell "
jen, my guess is when you go into this hive, you will most likely find the queen that was wandering around outside the hive that you put back in; your photograph of her in the clip from post #1.
this queen is a young queen, look at her abdomen. my guess is the bees decided to supersede her, your original queen, the queen you found wandering outside the hive. this might explain why she was outside the hive on the top edge of the lid. this young queen hatched out and she was on a mission to find the reigning queen. either the bees decided who reigns, or your original queen did (the queen on the lid). so the bees drag the 'loser' of the match out the door. this is the same hive you said you hadn't checked in a month or so and the same hive with the deep question?
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sounds like it was a mother / daughter
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yes, and i forgot to add to look for another one....or two or...... :D
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Riv- "this is the same hive you said you hadn't checked in a month or so and the same hive with the deep question?
Yep it is...
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Riv, that sounds like a decent scenario. Now... if in fact the new queen is in there, and the original queen is dead. How is she going to mate properly this time of year when it's time to wind it down, and there are so few drones left?
Maybe this would be in the bee biology book
And, hubby wants to know is it possible for this new queen to wait until spring to mate for next years production?
There is still capped brood and larva in this hive ~
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Good point Riverbee Often more than one queen cell, but usually the first one to hatch runs around and stings the rest, doesn't she?
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Good question Gypsi
Iddee, River and Gypsi: I'll have to wait until Thurs to get into this hive. What should my plan of action be?
I know to check for a queen...
If I see loaded queen cells? should I leave them alone?
If I find more than one queen, I should leave them to duke it out.. right?
I know I can combine, but would another solution be to buy another mated queen to see this hive thru the winter?
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With my vast 3 years experience and having lost hives to virgin queens in fall if I found multiple queens in my hive I would clip the virgins and set them up in some kind of small nuc until spring with a cluster of bees, maybe a medium nuc or queen castle inside an insulated deep to keep them warm, or even in a shed or greenhouse. Virgins can't get mated in time to lay before the drones are kicked out here after well, about now. except it was 99 here yesterday. Not a chance i would take. So I would queen clip the virgins and fix em up some little houses and leave her ladyship in charge and scold those bees and tell them they are risking their winter livelihood. If you do lose the old queen, combine them.
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Gypsi, an over wintered virgin queen can never mate. They have a window of a few weeks after birth to mate, otherwise they never do
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Thank you Iddee. I knew not to leave her in the hive, didn't know she was useless. Then again that few week window, how long is it, because I think these occasionally work in Texas, and we have shorter winters
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Not real sure, but thinking less than 30 days.
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Iddee- "an over wintered virgin queen can never mate. They have a window of a few weeks after birth to mate, otherwise they never do
That is a very good bit of info there, Thanks Idde, I have wondered the same thing ~
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Reposted ~
Iddee, River and Gypsi: I'll have to wait until Thurs to get into this hive. What should my plan of action be?
I know to check for a queen...
If I see loaded queen cells? should I leave them alone?
If I find more than one queen, I should leave them to duke it out.. right?
I know I can combine, but would another solution be to buy another mated queen to see this hive thru the winter? Would she be accepted this time of year? I'm thinking so?
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If you see queen cells, remove. If you see multiple queens, kill the skinny one. If you do not see the older queen (larger abdomen) consider combining with another hive, newspaper combine.
or let nature's take its course and keep an eye on it. But I would get the queen cells out, nothing good can come out of them
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jen, my best guess is your original queen, or the queen that you found outside the hive is in that hive, and the bees or she, took care of the virgin queen you found dead outside the hive. when you inspect the hive, look for her, and also look for other young queens.
to your question, any queen will not be able to mate this time of year (lack of drones) and also late summer/ fall supersedures are not going to be good queens. (how they are fed + drone population).
"is it possible for this new queen to wait until spring to mate for next years production?"
what iddee said, no.
what should you do? not knowing what's been going on in there in the past month, and what's going on now with the recent developments?
personally with the 'problems' you have experienced with this hive, i would be inclined to send the queen off on a farewell, cut every cell, (if they exist) and any other queen, (if they exist) leave them queenless for a day (make sure they are queenless) and combine it with another hive, and distribute the resources. in the spring you could potentially make some nice divides. also, your problem with that deep is solved. how strong is this colony? if the bees are trying to replace the queen, this is a clue. also consider that this hive may not make it with the existing queen. you don't need a hail mary hive. also, i would not purchase a mated queen.
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Riv, this sounds like a good plan ~
"you don't need a hail mary hive" Intrigued, what is a hail mary hive? Does this have something to do with catholic bees? :D
also, i would not purchase a mated queen. Curious, would purchasing a mated queen have something to do with the time of year?
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Time of year and state of bee-mind I would think Jen. Of the two queens I bought in mid september, one has flown the coop to who knows where, I just divided that hive and shared resources and bees with 2 others.
The other purchased queen I will see if she has laid any eggs now that she found the comb tomorrow or Friday. She was above the inner cover looking confused.
Requeening is always a bit of a challenge, as the bees may or may not accept the new queen; this time of year it's a real gamble.
I could second Riv's combine approach completely. Especially as it is cooling off there.
I am nervous about letting hives get too strong here just now, lest they pull a late season suicidal swarm. That happened to me in late October last year, still warm, good big strong hive ready for winter, lost the whole thing.
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Gypsi- "I am nervous about letting hives get too strong here just now, lest they pull a late season suicidal swarm. That happened to me in late October last year, still warm, good big strong hive ready for winter, lost the whole thing.
I know the bees are going to do what they're gonna do, but this hive and the hive next to it both have dinks, also very swarmy queens. This hive has a medium half full of brood and a good amount of bees. The hive next to it has a deep half full of brood and a good amount of bees. Seems to me that this combo still wouldn't bee too crowded at first.
Then I was thinking, if all goes well, and this hive doesn't swarm itself to death in spring like last spring... I would replace the dink with a new mated queen when the weather is conducive to open up the hive.
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"you don't need a hail mary hive" Intrigued, what is a hail mary hive? Does this have something to do with catholic bees? :D
well, you might have catholic bees, look for rosary beads in there....... :D
hmmm a crap shoot hive....
we as beeks usually figure out what to do with problem hives well before fall months, and if we don't or are faced with a decision in late summer/fall months, i call them hail mary hives.....so we do what we can. sometimes they make it, sometimes they don't.
it is typically not beneficial to try and 'save' or 'rescue' a hive in fall season. best practice is to combine a failing hive with another this time of year otherwise you are practicing 'hail mary', or the last ditch attempt to save them and hope for the best. that's my description, i am sticking to it..... :D
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You are all a lot colder than I am. Right now I'm having 90's in the daytime and 70's at night.
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gyspi- "I am nervous about letting hives get too strong here just now, lest they pull a late season suicidal swarm. That happened to me in late October last year, still warm, good big strong hive ready for winter, lost the whole thing.
That explaination works for me :) no holy water needed here. I was raised and baptised lutheran so I know some of this stuff.
Thanks Riv and Gypsi, always enjoy you two girls :)