Worldwide Beekeeping
General Discussion => Any and Every Thing => Topic started by: Lburou on October 10, 2014, 01:01:46 pm
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This year, the Antarctic ice pack has rapidly grown to the largest pack ever recorded. But its NOT global warming!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_WWXGGWZBE
I'm openminded about this climate change issue....Our Spaceship Earth has been warming for more than 10,000 years, its a fact. But I reject the panic. Just last year the alarmists pointed to the shrinking ice pack and, red-in-the-face, yelled "Its Global warming, its Global warming!". This year the ice pack is trending in the opposite direction, but "its not global warming". You can't have it both ways and have any believability.
P.S. I remember a Time magazine cover in the 1970's that reported 'experts' were warning of a rapid change in weather, signaling the coming of an ice age. We have a lot of technology blooming now that was not available even ten years ago. We don't know what to do with it. You can't take weather records for one hundred or two hundred years and extrapolate a forecast for the future, much less say the ocean will rise 100 feet in this century without some hysteria and some hype. We don't have a good track record predicting the weather. :)
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How true, only GOD can and does control the weather, if he wants it hot for you this year it will be hot, if he wants it cold it will be cold, the same way with rain because he said it rains on the good and bad, but he will hold back the rain if a lot are bad and I think that is what is happen in Ca.
Ken
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While I agree that nothing is carved in stone, I cannot help but believe our actions on this beautiful blue ball are having some effect. Global warming, extinction of species, the polluting of our oceans...............................
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I too try to keep an open mind, and also avoid the panic.. not so easy to do if you decide to believe some of the alarmists.. In agreeing with Perry, I find it hard to believe that we are having no effect, and yet when I see the coldest winter in 20 + years, AND the Ice pack growing to record proportions I have to wonder....
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Farmer's Almanac says we're in for another long cold winter :sad:
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I guess living in the middle of a fracking field where they said our well wasn't good so at least I have city water, MIGHT influence my opinion.
I believe that the tar sand pits in canada are almost as ugly as the tar balls still buried in the sand on the Gulf of Mexico.
I believe I no longer eat seafood because it is contaminated with mercury from coal burning.
I believe that the tops of many mountains in appalachia are no longer there from mountain top removal coal mining
And I believe that my generation has made the world a very ugly place. I almost regret having children, I am so ashamed of humans.
but climate change? Who knows. I know that I will reduce the electricity and oil and fuel I use and the rest of Texas will sit in their SUV's with the engine and air conditioner running while they check email on their smart phones.
I believe the earth is a self-cleansing organism and the earth will survive, but I do believe we are becoming an endangered species and we sure can't blame the polar bears, now can we?
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Gypsi... you crack me up ;)
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I'm having a glass of mead. I know more about environmental issues than you want to know Jen. I am going to quietly get drunk tonight. Have a good evening.
We do have something in common besides bees. we have 2 things: drought and fracking. Not sure how accurate this article is. Certainly Fox News, ABC, NBC, PBS and CBS don't cover pollution, that would be downright unamerican.
http://www.desmogblog.com/2014/10/07/central-california-aquifers-contaminated-billions-gallons-fracking-wastewater
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I believe there is middle ground on these issues. I just had to point out a double standard in reporting. :)
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................... :D :D :laugh:
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While I agree that nothing is carved in stone, I cannot help but believe our actions on this beautiful blue ball are having some effect. Global warming, extinction of species, the polluting of our oceans...............................
The official debate topic when I was a senior in high school (1966) was "Overpopulation"....I don't think we ever settled that problem and its at the center of many of our global 'issues' today. Overpopulation is the reason for the extra pollution, the deforestation, illegal immigration, the expansion in use of raw materials and arable land. We need birth control mixed with fluoride and send it with the aid overseas. ;)
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There is NO reporting on most of these issues. I get most of my news from Twitter, email subscriptions and Facebook subscriptions. Climate change is almost a moot point made very small by the level of human and property rights abuses committed by the fossil fuel and mining, extraction companies. By the way I OWN my mineral rights and they are not fracking under my land. Had to go around. Yes it's money, but it is ONLY money..
Got some good news today, once again, double standard in reporting as in, did you see this on the evening news?
http://greenshadowcabinet.us/news/case-dismissed-transcanada-charges-against-jill-stein-daryl-hannah-eleanor-fairchild-thrown-out
Property rights are a big deal in Texas, unless Trans Canada needs to run a pipe through
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Lee- birth control takes care of itself by developing illnesses, disease, and plagues. Fortunately, and kind of unfortunately, we have immunizations and antibiotics that hold the diseases and such back.
I was appauled at how many immunizations my two grandchildren have to have before they enter school nowa days. 27 shots each !! 27!!
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Over-population? Absolutely. I think Lee is bang on, it is the primary root of most of these problems.
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We used to help developing nations with birth control at their request but that ended a few years back.
What doesn't happen in disease in South America happens in oil spills. Chevron has still not cleaned up its oil spills in the Amazon / Ecuador from 20 years ago. Ecuador sued and won, the amazonian tribes got a judgment, so Chevron claimed prejudice and got the case moved to New York City. If oil and minerals are present whatever local people live there without modern medicine soon acquire all the modern diseases.
But yes, overpopulation in India and China are really a problem. And over consumption in the U.S., proportionate to population we generate the most per capita pollution. And greed really is destructive.
I encourage my daughters to get my grandkids their shots. Except the flu shot, that one I won't even get.
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In my short 76 years on mother earth, i have seen a change in the weather pattern. The storms are getting bigger and stronger, drought is getting more frequent in places that normally (Normal,now there's a word) had abundant rainfall? Over population leads to pollution, pollution leads to disease, some old and new ones like we are seeing now? Mother earth can only feed so many living things on earth, including the human species, and we keep polluting what everything needs to live, WATER, but the human race thinks it's smarter than mother earth and can control all that when the time comes. 8) Well in my book the human races isn't that smart or we wouldn't be killing each other because we don't believe the way they do :o. My wives grandpa (a farmer all his life) never owned a tractor, and wouldn't use insecticides or herbicides, told me something that i try to follow. IF you take care of the Land it will take care of you. To bad are world leaders aren't as smart as that old farmer. Sorry for my rant, it's just the way i see it. Jack
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Jack I am with you 100%. And no there isn't global warming in antarctica where the land glaciers melted and ran off into the ocean and freshwater freezes at a warmer temperature than saltwater. But I will be leaving Texas while my house is still worth something. Because the drought and heat within 10 years will be more than an inconvenience for those of us that garden.
We have climate change. We had climate change in 1980 after Mount Saint Helens blew and it snowed every 2 weeks in Dallas in winter of 79, hottest year on record in 1980. Now we have Mount Saint Helens in pollution every year. Rant over.
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I am going to disagree about the storms, at least where I live...
I remember thunderstorms lasting HOURS to days. Sitting in the garage watching lightning hit the street. I remember FEET of snow and riding the highways on snowmobiles to bring in stranded people. I remember dropping 12 feet down, from packed snow to wind blown bare pavement.. Stove up my sled pretty good and probably part of the reason I have back problems every now and then.
Today, thunderstorms come.. they HIT HARD and are gone an hour later. The longest storm we had this year was about 4 hours. It dropped about 5 inches of rain. The norm is now the 20 minute storm.. Thunder and lightning and wind.. maybe a tornado and a bit of hail, and its GONE and the sun is shining again.
I miss being cooped up in the house watching the lightning and hearing the thunder roll across the plains.. Now when a storm hits we all just pause whatever we were doing until it passes, and then continue on....
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Where you live Lazy is one of the more stable areas. The whole interior of the country is more stable than the perimeters. I'm heading mid-country and will be deciding where as soon as this house is ready to sell and my business is ready for the migration. Will depend on weather, soil, large farming operations (I'd sooner live on a mountain than near heavily sprayed soy), and so on. I'm an organic gardener and a cancer survivor. I've also been following climate, volcanic activity and earthquake activity as a hobby since my teens. I was in an earthquake in western Kentucky when I was maybe 9 years old? , years ago, barely a quiver, but I find it fascinating.
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In the early 1900's, they cut ice from the river here. In the fifties, I saw it freeze from the bank out 10 to 15 feet. In the last 30 years, I have not seen ice on the river.
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When I was a kid living at the base of a beautiful mountain we had snow up to 7 feet, burried the wire lines on the clothes line, and couldn't see the top of the 6 foot fence for weeks, snow drifts that were higher than the top edge of our windows. Us neighborhood kids were warned to not dig straight into the tall banks and were freshly scrapped from the snow plows to make a caves, because if the upper layer dropped we wouldn't be found until spring. We did it anyway. Haven't seen that kind of snow since... well... when I was a kid :D
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http://www.eurasiareview.com/10102014-peru-oil-important-life/
Oil companies occasionally clean up after themselves in the US, although I think the Arkansas spill and the Enbridge dump in the Kalamazoo river can never be fully re mediated, especially the spill in the river, tar sands don't float, they sink.
The CEO of Exxon is suing the fracking company drilling near his home for lowering his property values, (you can check this on Google, and another complaninant in the suit is Dick Armey, former US Rep for Texas.
The Amazon Rainforest are the lungs of the earth, and there is oil underneath. What is happening there, with less government supervision and no tech savvy residents is pretty bad for its residents, and in the end for the planet. That is what is at the link.
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what jack said....
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It has been a few years since the river has frozen solid here as well.. We used to ride our snowmobiles on the river ice all the time.. Last winter was the first winter in 20 years that river has frozen solid enough to ride on.
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Hope comes from young people. Just went and heard 5 young men in a band play, I've known them 6 years now, they played my 50th birthday. They all hold day jobs, they perfect their craft on their own time, they work hard and with vision. Pretty sure all my friends are now so mentally old I won't hold another party with a rock band. But I am glad I went to the show. There is much wrong with the world. Nice to be where there is hope...
We have built our future, now they have to build theirs. They are smart, these young people. They think, at least part of the time. There is hope.
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Being on the farm most of my life i find it hard to believe (the EPA) that methane gas emitted from cows is a bigger problem than carbon monoxide emitted from automobiles. Cows aren't the only producers of methane gas, what about humans, wild animals, other farm animals, and what about horses, i've heard say that there are more horses in the US of A now than there was in the days before auto's and machinery :o. Is this true or did i miss something? ??? Jack
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Methane is not being trapped properly during natural gas drilling and particularly in hydraulic fracturing, so methane emissions are off the scale, but it isn't my compost pile and it isn't your cows.
The biggest problem with the fossil fuel industry is they are sloppy. If they can get away with cutting corners and not trapping methane, not cleaning oil spills, they do it. Methane is rapidly outpacing carbon dioxide in atmospheric warming. But CO2 is causing the ocean to become acid...
All in all the time for wind and solar is here. and just use less. No matter what the 3% of scientists say.
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Being on the farm most of my life i find it hard to believe (the EPA) that methane gas emitted from cows is a bigger problem than carbon monoxide emitted from automobiles. Cows aren't the only producers of methane gas, what about humans, wild animals, other farm animals, and what about horses, i've heard say that there are more horses in the US of A now than there was in the days before auto's and machinery :o. Is this true or did i miss something? ??? Jack
Horses are not ruminants.
Ruminating mammals include cattle, goats, sheep, giraffes, yaks, deer, camels, llamas, antelope, and some macropods.
An explanation (the details are beyond me, but the general gist is not) about methane in the atmosphere is here. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0889.1986.tb00193.x/abstract)
A volcano can put so much of several chemicals into the air in one eruption as as to render these numbers small by comparison.
I still go with overpopulation and bad leadership in Washington (Congress).
:)
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Lee - "I still go with overpopulation and bad leadership in Washington (Congress).
:occasion14: I would sure like to see our country stay out of the other countries business and start taking care of our own problems.
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This may sound political, but not meant that way.
Retired president pay for life-$450.000.00
Senate members pay for life-$174.000.00
Speaker of the house pay for life time-$223.500.00
Majority/Minority leaders pay for life-$194.000.00
Average salaryof soldier deployed to Afghanistan- $38.000.00
Average seniors on Scoial Security- $12.000.00
I think we found where the cuts should be. :o
Hmmmm, by the way, i don't remember voting on this do you, after all they do work for us. ;D Jack
PS. a cousin from Texas sent me this info.
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Jack. that makes sense.
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At the risk of sounding like I dislike our govt.... I think they should all be removed.. by whatever means necessary. ALL laws benefits etc should revert at least 20 years, preferably 40, and a govt of the people, by the people, and for the people installed.. and from that point, once again start moving forward... Just to keep them honest.. a thermonuclear bomb planted UNDER the building where they are to meet, and to work each day. the person who controls the bomb will be the one who sits and watches the daily poll from the People of this country... When they decide to pass something a amajority do not want.. Like Obamacare... that fellow pushes the button, and we start all over again... ;D
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LazyBkpr I am with you on that except the bomb.
Ken
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By there own actions they have proven we don't need a congress,look what a savings that would be to the tax payers. :yes: Jack
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Remember Ross Perot? Now, that was the first time that I actually understood what it might mean to put a business man/woman in the seat. His run for presidency made me think ouside of politics and into the real world of finance. I'm not against that idea. And, I'll bet if got a business minded man/woman in the seat, more of our money would stay here on US soil.
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after citizens united? It would be a koch, and not pretty.
And now we need educated citizens capable of comprehending high school civics which are apparently not taught anymore..
I'm encouraging granddaughter to learn german. http://thinkprogress.org/education/2014/10/01/3574551/germany-free-college-tuition/
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let's get back on topic to the original post of the thread.........
global warming....
politicians do create a lot of global warming and so do our political opinions........ :D
lee's initial post, and let's keep on topic to it......
"I'm openminded about this climate change issue....Our Spaceship Earth has been warming for more than 10,000 years, its a fact. But I reject the panic. Just last year the alarmists pointed to the shrinking ice pack and, red-in-the-face, yelled "Its Global warming, its Global warming!". This year the ice pack is trending in the opposite direction, but "its not global warming". You can't have it both ways and have any believability.
P.S. I remember a Time magazine cover in the 1970's that reported 'experts' were warning of a rapid change in weather, signaling the coming of an ice age. We have a lot of technology blooming now that was not available even ten years ago. We don't know what to do with it. You can't take weather records for one hundred or two hundred years and extrapolate a forecast for the future, much less say the ocean will rise 100 feet in this century without some hysteria and some hype. We don't have a good track record predicting the weather. :)"
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Global warming is an incorrect term. The correct term is climate change, which will make some places hotter, some places colder, in my opinion is going to significantly increase storm damage in coastal areas and some non-coastal areas such as arizona and new mexico, both of whom have been hammered by hurricanes this year.
I suspect that Japan and Florida will both sink. Our largest naval base on the east coast is in Norfolk Virginia, and it is a poster child for climate change, it is sinking so fast.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/environment/norfolk-virginia-the-poster-child-for-climate-change/article/385295
Some east coast states have banned the measurement and reporting of tidal changes and flooding for fear of the damage to their economies. Florida's sinkholes are being caused in part by ocean acidification softening the limestone under the state and I don't want to be at disneyworld theme park when it sinks, so far one resort went underground overnight August 13 2013. I had to pick the date up from an Australian site, as these things will hurt the economy if they hit the US news. http://www.smh.com.au/world/sinkhole-swallows-florida-resort-villa-20130813-2rsye.html
Certainly there is much to be said about news bias and under reporting. I have to go to world news to get US news about climate change and environmental issues, because the "liberal" us news is not owned by liberals, it is owned by very large industries with vested interest in not telling the truth.
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I'm with you all the way on climate change Gypsi. It's real and it's happening now. 97% of the scientists who are involved in studying the issue agree on that (and it's extremely rare to get that kind of consensus in academia). The problem is that climate has overlapping long and short term cycles, many of which we are just starting to understand. So making any kind of meaningful predictions about what exactly will happen in our lifetimes is just about impossible. My feeling is that the earth is in for a rough couple of centuries and our kids will have to be both adaptable and resourceful to survive and thrive. After that we'll be out of fossil fuels and over the mass extinctions and the earth will reach a new equilibrium of some sort. 10 000 years ago 1/2 of this continent was covered by two miles of ice, perhaps 10 000 years form now it will be again.
My personal hope is that the oceans will prove to be a more potent carbon sink than we think and global warming will not be as severe as the worst case projections.
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Be a little more clear, Pete. 97% agree on "natural" climate change. A majority do not agree on "man-made" climate change.
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Everything on earth belongs here or it wouldn't be here, it's how man treats it and rearranges it that becomes the problem. JMHO. Jack
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Actually Iddee, 97% of climate scientists say man's industry and man's activities are contributing to climate change.
https://secure2.edf.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=2361&utm_campaign=secure2-edf-share&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media
I sign a LOT of petitions. And sometimes it works. I sign petitions boycotting food companies that are cutting down indonesian forests to raise cheap palm oil. At least 2 of the bigger food companies have started holding their palm oil suppliers to a slightly higher standard, and hopefully stop razing forests killing orangutans and elephants. How is that related to climate change? Forests are carbon sinks absorbing CO2 and giving off oxygen, also holding moisture and affecting weather patterns
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Contribute....?? If I step outside at night and urinate in the back yard, I contribute to the local ground water.
The majority of scientists today say global warming, global cooling, is nothing but an agenda. The vast majority of weather change is natural.
PS. Your link is a great example of someone's agenda. The big DONATE button at the top tells it all.
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I have saved $2400 a year on heating and cooling since I painted my roof white Iddee, and went to a modest wood stove and beefed up my windows, so I can afford to donate wherever I like, including bee forums.
And I do donate to some groups. I am a Sierra Club member. I am a member of Union of Concerned Scientists. And I am a member of this bee forum which I haven't decided whether to donate to yet. EDF does some good work and so does Earthjustice, but I am not wealthy enough to support every group I sign petitions with and join with in spirit.
To each their own, but I certainly am entitled to my own views.
And my children and grandchildren are entitled to clean air and water. Even the CEO of Exxon is suing a fracking company for making a mess and lowering his property values. But you just keep on donating wherever you like. You get what you pay for!
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WHOA, gypsi, whoa. There were no personal feelings meant in my post. That is one thing stressed here. Post your opinion, but let others post theirs as well. If we all thought the very same, there would be no need for discussions, therefore, no need for a forum.
Citizens with different opinions is what keeps America balanced, and the greatest country on earth.
Keep'em coming......
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No personal feelings taken. I live in North Texas. I hold my own and have my own opinions and those differ from most of my neighbors. But I work hard, mind my own business, help keep the neighborhood safe so they put up with me. We all have basically the same size house and I have the lowest utility bills in the area. So far someone else got a white roof. I try to be contagious, I save money and live better. And I donate to help people who choose to get smarter have access to information
The Koch Brothers pay for Fox news, so it is free misinformation. Their profits from coal oil and tarsands depend on misinformation.
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Well, iddee, if you want opinions, here's mine: denying that global warming is happening is kind of like denying gravity. You can deny all you want, but it isn't going away. Average global temperatures have already risen approximately two degrees in the last century as a direct result of human activities. Sure, there are plenty of natural cyclical climate changes superimposed on that trend, but the average increase is there. Seven of the ten warmest years on record have happened since the year 2000. Climate scientist agree on these points, they just don't agree on what that means to the future of the planet.
I don't really need scientific data to confirm what I have personally witnessed. I have dived on reefs killed by warm temperatures in 3 different oceans. I have visited glaciers in the swiss alps and canadian rockies that have retreated miles from historic levels in the last 20 years. I live right in the middle of a forest the size of Texas devastated by mountain pine beetle. The beetles used to be kept in check by annual -40 cold spells. The last time we had -40 here was 18 years ago. My sister until recently lived in the north west territories, where permafrost that has been intact since the ice age is melting.
Not all areas are being affected equally, perhaps the north is where the greatest changes are being felt.
As for my agenda: well I guess I'm concerned about the world my 3 little girls are growing into, but I still follow the herd and drive my car and heat my house.
Just am interesting aside on this topic: Israeli scientist studying solar radiation have concluded that the amount of sunlight reaching the surface of the earth is several % than it was 50 years ago. This is due to the dust created by human activities. Without this increased opacity of the atmosphere the green house effect would be even worse than it is. So I guess if you drive your car down a gravel road, you're not warming up the planet :)
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The majority of scientists today say global warming, global cooling, is nothing but an agenda. The vast majority of weather change is natural.
100% natural :yes:
We are very humancentric, and like to give us more important role then we deserve, in everything that happens on this earth. Good and bad.
Even with today's numbers of the human population we are nothing more than a spec on this planet.
Climate was never a constant, and how I see it, it's gonna stay that way.
Please, don't algore me. Thanks
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I cannot resist.
Algore Algore Algore Algore Algore Algore Algore
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Hmmmm, i seem to remember reading somewhere that someone was building a ARK on dry land, and everyone around laughed and made fun of him, until they found out they couldn't swim for 40 days and 40 nights. Oh well, i guess it was a fairy tell?? Jack O:-)
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That ark builder did make history didn't he?
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While I agree that nothing is carved in stone, I cannot help but believe our actions on this beautiful blue ball are having some effect. Global warming, extinction of species, the polluting of our oceans...............................
The official debate topic when I was a senior in high school (1966) was "Overpopulation"....I don't think we ever settled that problem and its at the center of many of our global 'issues' today. Overpopulation is the reason for the extra pollution, the deforestation, illegal immigration, the expansion in use of raw materials and arable land. We need birth control mixed with fluoride and send it with the aid overseas. ;)
Hear, hear, great post. I wish I had written it.
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not a bad idea.
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Global warming is nothing but politics. We don’t live here long enough to see the climate changes. Every 75 years our earth has a little shift in its orbit. 75 years from now most of us wont be here. Our climate weather will go back to normal again.
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Ray the planet will be just fine as soon as we go extinct.
I have grandchildren that already will not see things that I saw as a child, so if I feel better about reducing my electric bill and fighting the KXL and fighting the mercury puking out of Texas coal plants, I am all owed to do those things AND feel better about them.
Never mind global warming.
Don't eat fish because of mercury, especially if you are pregnant. How did the mercury get in the fish? From the mercury in the air. How did the mercury get in the air? from burning coal.
How did the oil get in Lake Caddo? Busted pipeline. See that on evening news? Are you kidding, I live in Texas and the oil companies OWN the evening news. Lake Caddo is our largest natural lake.
We already have tar sands being piped through and only poor people would live near a refinery as the air is too polluted to breathe but they can afford housing there and not out in the nice prairie where there isn't much pollution unless you are near one of the coal plants or the cement plant in Midlothian.
None of this is global warming. All of it is verifiable. We as a species are obviously pigs. There is an island of used plastic water bottles in the center of the Pacific. Birds eat the plastic bits and die. This is not global warming either.
Have a good day.
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We already have a new pipe line in place. Railroads. Its working. I hope we continue to ship oil by rail because I want my former railroad buddies to keep their Jobs. I just retired from the CSX railroad. 40 happy years. I agree we don’t need another oil pipeline built to your state. We need the pipeline built to North Dakota . If we don’t build it. Canada will build the pipeline west to the pacific ocean. Who do you think will get the oil. China. No we build it up north on the Canadian boarder away from people. We need the oil. We don’t need fracking. Come to NY and live. People come first. We might have some of the highest taxes in the nation but our environment is clean. Do you remember what Ross Perot was trying to do. He tried telling the American people we own the country. He was trying to tell the people to form a new political party. He created American united we stand. The middle party is still there today waiting for the people to take back their country from the media and government. I figure our sun has about 2 billion years left before it runs out of fuel. Man will be long gone from this planet before our star dies. Lets go in the gardening forum. We can talk about gardening .
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I voted for Ross Perot. Got us GWB. I don't want to talk anymore.
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"Global warming is nothing but politics. We don’t live here long enough to see the climate changes. Every 75 years our earth has a little shift in its orbit. 75 years from now most of us wont be here. Our climate weather will go back to normal again."
mmm, some say it's politics, some say not. climate changes in my lifetime, already seen them in one form or another.......an earth shift in it's orbit? probably true, i am not a scientist. 75 yrs from now i won't be here........climate weather going back to normal? ..........LOL!!! i think we have all experienced unusual weather patterns in our areas for some time, so i am not sure what's 'normal'.
i grew up in montana, i see the glaciers in glacier park receding, and i see that streams and waters no longer contain or hold the species they once did (waters warmed), in part for other reasons, (mismanagement, pollution, mining), this affects other species..... but one of those factors is something other than 'environmental' mistakes. i see parts of lake superior that used to freeze solid and isn't anymore.....? what's the answer?
i am not one to jump on a political band wagon, or believe anything i read. i am not one to jump on any cause.....but, i see, i observe and i do believe we have contributed to the demise of the environments we live in and around us. is it global warming? does it cause global warming? don't know, not a scientist. but somethings up, and if you don't think so or haven't noticed..........well......? don't know what to say.
let me tell ya how politics and oil companies shut down the oil fields in north dakota 25 - 30 yrs ago..........ran my dad, and other welders in the fields silly improperly capping well heads to all those oil rigs that were producing oil at the time and are now working again......amazing.....hmmm......
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The one thing I've learned while earning this grey hair is that nothing stays the same, everything is in a state of change. That includes our spaceship (earth) too. :)
....capping well heads to all those oil rigs that were producing oil at the time and are now working again......amazing.....hmmm......
Off topic: that reminds me when I was a member of an US Air Force Accident Investigation Board, investigating the loss of an aircraft off the coast of Santa barbara, CA in 1973. It went down in the ocean.....We never did find the aircraft, but found 57 capped oil wells just a mile or so off the coastline while searching for the lost helicopter. A lot of politics involved there....I suppose they are still capped while companies from around the world drill just off our territorial water boundaries. Off topic, but I feel better now. ;-)
BTW, I heard an interesting report on late night BBC Radio that we are finding large (deep in the earth's mantle, even under oceans) freshwater aquifers and that will be the next area for providing fresh water to dry areas of the earth. These deep reservoirs are being found around the world. Anyone else heard of this? I hope it works out for humanity as well as the flora and fauna too. :)
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.... There is an island of used plastic water bottles in the center of the Pacific. Birds eat the plastic bits and die. This is not global warming either.
Have a good day.
I'm with you on this one Gypsi, we need to solve this floating plastic issue...yesterday is not soon enough. If I was president, I'd get a law passed to require all plastic and foam products be made from the corn plant (existing technology and biodegradable). :)
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Riverbee
It was good politics. Why should we use our oil when we can go over to the middle east and use there oil. Those Arabs aren’t stupid. They know what were doing. They turned on us and tried to suck us dry financially. We turned around and stuck it to them because we saved our resources at home. Good politics on our part. We don’t need their oil now. We have our own. We got Mexico and Canada to get our oil from too. Save our oil at home. These environmental people in our country are killing us. When was the last time we build a new refinery 35 yrs ago. I'm for clean environment but we have to use common sense too. If we don’t build this Canadian pipeline china will get the oil. Those people are stockpiling it now while we continue to fight at home over the pipeline. We have another problem coming up soon. The Russians claim they own part of the artic Canada owns. They want that oil too. Its sounds to me we are fighting a war over oil now. Right now we have to play the game with them. I figure in about 30 years we wont need oil to run our country. We have the technology to move away from it now but its all about politics. 30 years our cars wont need gas and oil. We will have hydrogen fuel cell cars and better power plants to produce electricity. I'm sick of this bickering. The generations before us left us a beautiful country. We should do the same for our children.
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""If I was president, I'd get a law passed to require all plastic and foam products be made from the corn plant (existing technology and biodegradable)"".
Ten dollars an ear for corn, but the farmer still poor paying for that million dollar all steel tractor. Sounds like a plan.
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Us environmentalists are those children that inherited your oil spills and smoky skies Ray. Us awful environmentalists ruining this nation are the inheritors of your mess.
The EPA was invented just barely in time that we didn't all get 100% lead poisoned from the lead in your gasoline. When you clean the tar sands out of the Kalamazoo river and get the rest of the tar balls from the BP spill out of the sand, when you get the mercury out of the water and the concrete ash out of the air and the radiation out of the pacific, I'll be more than happy to talk about the economic need for oil and tar sands. And the tar sands oil are going straight from Canada to Texas for processing to enrich the Kochs and on tankers to China. IF the pipeline is built or it isn't.
When Lee was in the navy I was in Junior High School. I have grown up watching the world get dirtier and dirtier and the corporations get richer and richer and frankly my dear I don't give a d*mn how much sand you bury your head in, facts are facts and things are changing and you can lie to yourself all day long but why don't you go buy yourself some beach front property. Might be a lot of people wanting to sell at bargain prices soon, and you know if it isn't climate change you could make a really fat profit.
I would head for the hills but in the wealthy state of Texas I haven't got the money to leave unless a developer sets eyes on my neighborhood and offers a great price for the whole thing.
When they do (and one will sooner or later) I will head for high ground and rainfall. Because Personally I can't drink money. Glad you can.
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""If I was president, I'd get a law passed to require all plastic and foam products be made from the corn plant (existing technology and biodegradable)"".
Ten dollars an ear for corn, but the farmer still poor paying for that million dollar all steel tractor. Sounds like a plan.
The farmer buys retail and then sells wholesale. No choice. Too many live as paupers and die millionaires. :)
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I ate fish from the river the whole time I was growing up, pulled from between the toilet paper floating down the river. No more sewage in the river. I guess we dirtied it up to where the s**t couldn't stand it, so it left.
I played with what we called quick silver, rubbing dimes with it between my fingers to make them shine. Maybe I died from mercury poisoning and just didn't know it.
We had farm ponds to fish in and irrigate with. The EPA won't let us dig them now. "disturbs the wetlands", so our crops die and we have to burn gas to go fishing.
I could go on, but I doubt I would change your mind.
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I played with mercury in science class too. Fish were safe to eat. We can still dig stock tanks in Texas but the rain doesn't fall so they are dry.
The EPA made them not dump the sewage in the river. That awful epa. But seriously the Kalamazoo River in Marshall Michigan is full of Tarsands oil from an Enbridge pipeline leak.
There is oil in Caddo lake. There are downsides to the EPA. But do you remember what the skies looked like before it? Do you remember DDT? I am probably the only person in 50 miles that supports EPA regs. But I am the youngest one not on an oil or fracking payroll in some fashion or another too. No Iddee you cannot change my mind.
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Yes, I met one of those children the other day. It went sorta like this...........
Checking out at the store, the young cashier suggested to the older woman, that she should bring her own grocery bags because plastic bags weren't good for the environment.
The woman apologized and explained, "We didn't have this green thing back in my earlier days.
The young clerk responded, "That's our problem today. Your generation did not care enough to save our environment for future generations."
She was right -- our generation didn't have the green thing in its day.
Back then, we returned milk bottles, soda bottles and beer bottles to the store. The store sent them back to the plant to be washed and sterilized and refilled, so it could use the same bottles over and over. So they really were truly recycled. But we didn't have the green thing back in our day.
Grocery stores bagged our groceries in brown paper bags, that we reused for numerous things, most memorable besides household garbage bags, was the use of brown paper bags as book covers for our schoolbooks.
This was to ensure that public property, (the books provided for our use by the school) was not defaced by our scribbling's. Then we were able to personalize our books on the brown paper bags. But too bad we didn't do the green thing back then.
We walked up stairs, because we didn't have an escalator in every store and office building. We walked to the grocery store and didn't climb into a 300-horsepower machine every time we had to go two blocks. But she was
right. We didn't have the green thing in our day.
Back then, we washed the baby's diapers because we didn't have the throwaway kind. We dried clothes on a line, not in an energy-gobbling machine burning up 220 volts -- wind and solar power really did dry our clothes back in our early days. Kids got hand-me-down clothes from their brothers or sisters, not always brand-new clothing. But that young lady is right; we didn't have the
green thing back in our day.
Back then, we had one TV, or radio, in the house -- not a TV in every room. And the TV had a small screen the size of a handkerchief (remember them?), not a screen the size of the state of Montana.
In the kitchen, we blended and stirred by hand because we didn't have electric machines to do everything for us.
When we packaged a fragile item to send in the mail, we used wadded up old newspapers to cushion it, not Styrofoam or plastic bubble wrap.
Back then, we didn't fire up an engine and burn gasoline just to cut the lawn. We used a push mower that ran on human power. We exercised by working so we didn't need to go to a health club to run on treadmills that
operate on electricity. But she's right; we didn't have the green thing back then.
We drank from a fountain when we were thirsty instead of using a cup or a plastic bottle every time we had a drink of water. We refilled writing pens with ink instead of
buying a new pen, and we replaced the razor blades in a razor instead of throwing away the whole razor just because the blade got dull. But we didn't have the green thing back then.
Back then, people took the streetcar or a bus and kids rode their bikes to school or walked instead of turning their moms into a 24-hour taxi service. We had one electrical outlet in a room, not an entire bank of sockets to power a dozen appliances. And we didn't need a
computerized gadget to receive a signal beamed from satellites 23,000 miles out in space in order to find the nearest burger joint.
But isn't it sad the current generation laments how wasteful we old folks were just because we didn't have the green thing back then?
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I know. I would LOVE to see a 10 Cent deposit on every bottle or beverage can sold in Texas. I would also like to see methane recapture on every frack well. Wish in one hand do something else with the other and see what I get.
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Your bottle problem floating out in the middle of the ocean could be solved real easy. We don’t have plastic bottles floating in our lakes. we pay 5 cent tax for every plastic bottle we buy. We have a choice throw it away or save it and return it when we get enough of them for a refund back on our tax. It produced jobs and our environment is clean. I see retied men making 200 dollars every weekend during the summer going to state parks picking up bottles and going thru the trash cans looking for plastic containers. It gives the people a little incentive to keep their land clean. If you can find 100 bottles you make 5 dollars.
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The water is cleaner in our rivers than it was decades back. The air is cleaner. Do any of you remember acid rain? I do. It was prevalent in the New England states in the 60's. Oh, and that pile of plastic bottles in the ocean in not from the US, but from all of the countries that ship across the sea. Could we do more? Yes. Will we do more. Yes, there is another set of USEPA rules coming in the next few weeks.
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I don't disagree with much you say, but when the children of today are doing all the damage, please don't blame it on us old timers. We did things differently.
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I don't disagree with much you say, but when the children of today are doing all the damage, please don't blame it on us old timers. We did things differently.
We sure did it different. In the 40's an
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don't get me going on the amount of forest leveled in the continental US Iddee, or what the Redwoods of California would look like if not for Teddy Roosevelt.
Texas has had its head up its a** on anything that might interfere with a business's ability to make a profit forever. Which is why the vet clinic that told an owner they eu'd their dog and put the dog in a cage and milked him for blood for 4 years is still open, and owned by the guy with the suspended vet license.
If the bottling company whines that a 5 cent or 10 cent deposit will put them out of business, Austin will cave. I should take pictures of Fort Worth roadsides. I can't pick up all the mess. Aluminum gets collected because of recycling value. The busted glass in my neighborhood I try to sweep up. I don't know who does the rest of the state.
We can't know where hazardous chemicals are, or have inspections run on any plants that might blow up, might interfere with profit and tax revenue.. This isn't old timers, this is current Austin politicians of both parties.
This is a part of why I hate Texas. I have become an anti-consumer - I don't buy anything taxable unless I desperately need it. Hate to support a crooked system
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Congrats, gypsi. That is the 40,000 post on the forum. 300 members and 40,000 posts in the first year. That is awesome. Thank You to each and every one.
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Iddee, if my dad was alive he would disagree with recycled milk bottles, i remember him drinking milk and soaking either bread or crackers in it before going to bed. Two different times he poured milk into a glass only to have a drowned mouse plop into his glass after he had drank half of the bottle :o. Both times he was up all night upchucking :sad:. I still won't drink store bought milk. ;D Jack
PS. the milk bottle was glass with a cardboard stopper that was worth one mill. (doubt many of you know what that was ;D)
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Ewww on the mouse. I don't drink milk anyway. If I could keep a milk goat alive I might. so I am lucky number 40,000? What did I win Iddee?
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I think the prize was PERRY, you lucky devil. :D :D Jack
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oh no!
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It hurts my feeling when people vehemently say they hate Texas over and over and over. Is this offending to anyone else?
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I'm sorry Lazy Shooter. I should love Texas. I think before my daughter died in 1984 I still did. My children live here. My business is here. Perhaps I should say I hate Austin? I like the music in Austin but I detest the Texas state government policies and I would be lying if I said otherwise. Maybe I should just say I hate political hypocrites in 10 gallon hats and cowboy boots who pass laws for donations?
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Gypsi
what makes you think I’m rich. I'm just an average working man struggling to make ends meet like everyone else. I don’t own a corporation. The gas I put in my truck, I don’t own the oil company. The air they pollute is not my fault. You must think I’m some big corporate boss making 300 grand a year. Your wrong. We need the oil. Its better if we get it from Canada than dig up our land to get it. Don’t you think we would have more pollution in our country. We live in a very dangerous world right now. We need every drop of oil we can get. We defend most of the world too. mellow out a little.
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You are certainly defending some pathetically rich corporations Ray. You and they have a great time.
I'm the next generation. I am one of those super-environmentalists that is ruining our country. I use as little as possible of that wonderful oil made into plastic and all sorts of nice plasticky shiney things sold at wal-mart.
I do not support our going to war to defend oil resources in other countries. I am all for supporting our troops but I feel foreign wars are almost never fully won.. I know that is terribly unamerican and untexan. I just don't. we use 100 times what we need daily. After the population drops off due to ocean rise, etc, we will use a more rational amount. And we are our own worst enemy. The chief danger is the fear broadcast daily via our news media. Listen to other country's news. We are nuttier than aunt Suzy's fruitcake.
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Who cares what the world thinks of us. We are the most generous people that walk the face of this planet. They hate us because we are successful in what we do. Why do you think our for fathers came her for. They wanted a better life. You think were crazy today. People back 250 years ago were crazy. We can thank them because they formed this great nation. We wouldn’t be here tonight talking about it
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Through out the life of this planet, cyclical extreme weather changes occurred. While people certainly do exacerbate what's happening, mother nature has been doing it herself for centuries.
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I don't hate Texas, but i don't have much good to say about Fort Hood army base. :no:. White sand Hot and Rattle snakes. :-X Jack
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I think the prize was PERRY, you lucky devil. :D :D Jack
ROFL!! That got a heck of a laugh out of me this morning..; Thanks Jack!
Iddee.. Your post filled me with a LOT of memories... I am only 50, but I remember so MANY of the things your post talked about.. perhaps because were a bit behind the times? I remember our phones being on a party line, churning milk/butter, and putting loose hay up in the barn.. and I remember making book covers out of used grocery sacks... Thanks for a great trip through many good memories!
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Actually, I stole it off Beemaster. I had seen it before, but still thought it needed to go around more.
I remember most of them, plus the old outhouse, and carrying water to the house in buckets. A sign of a boy growing up was the ability to carry his side of a number 2 washtub full of water to the house on Monday, which was always laundry day with the old wringer washer.
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Wringer Washer :sad: As a young boy t remember being at my Aunts home, they rented two apartments up stairs. One of the lady's was doing her washing in the hallway, you guessed it :-[ i got my arm caught in the ringer, it scared the lady so bad that she didn't realize she could stop the washer and separate the rollers, she just threw it in reverse and run my arm back out :o. I have a scar in my under arm from it. Jack
PS. i'm not by my self, i've heard of others who had this experience. :sad:
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Who cares what the world thinks of us. We are the most generous people that walk the face of this planet. They hate us because we are successful in what we do.
Yes, Ray, we are generous.....We borrow money from China and give it to nations and peoples who do not show any appreciation for the debt we pass to our children. An endless and wholly unsustainable practice -we are headed for a train wreck. We are hated because we are the superpower, and perceived to have everything in abundance. There are upsides to China's emergence as a superpower, maybe those sights of dissatisfaction will change toward the East? :)
The human impact on climate will never subside significantly until China and the far East begin to curb their emissions. The oft quoted 4% of the worlds population consuming 20% of the world's energy dogma is 30 years out of date now. :)
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Ewww on the mouse. I don't drink milk anyway. If I could keep a milk goat alive I might. so I am lucky number 40,000? What did I win Iddee?
"I think the prize was PERRY, you lucky devil. :D :D Jack"
Sigh, I guess I gotta come out of retirement (that only lasted a year or two).
Do I hafta shave the beard off Gypsi?
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs28.postimg.cc%2Fmwu2qyztl%2Fweb1_WEB_Chippendales_Ziering.jpg&hash=3dcb559b51afde80cd4314dfa855bb158e95a85d) (http://postimg.cc/image/mwu2qyztl/)
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Who cares what the world thinks of us. We are the most generous people that walk the face of this planet. They hate us because we are successful in what we do.
Yes, Ray, we are generous.....We borrow money from China and give it to nations and peoples who do not show any appreciation for the debt we pass to our children. An endless and wholly unsustainable practice -we are headed for a train wreck. We are hated because we are the superpower, and perceived to have everything in abundance. There are upsides to China's emergence as a superpower, maybe those sights of dissatisfaction will change toward the East? :)
The human impact on climate will never subside significantly until China and the far East begin to curb their emissions. The oft quoted 4% of the worlds population consuming 20% of the world's energy dogma is 30 years out of date now. :)
Oh my God, another great post. Just keep on writing for me Lee. The smog in Bei Jing limits one's vision to 1/2 mile and it burns your eyes. Flying into Beijing you only see the tallest of buildings. I don't have words to express how much air and water pollution China is producing. When driving past one of their coal fired generating plants the air is back for a couple of miles. People in this country have no idea what pollution is. China, India, and a host of other far east countries are polluting our oceans and air. What we do in the US is a drop in the bucket.
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We still pollute in the US. Its not as bad compared to what we did in The 1940s to the 1970s. We created china pollution. Our corporations closed up here to go over there for cheap labor. The people in china were glad to have our corporation come to their country. Our economy declined at home. I remember what Buffalo NY and Cleveland Ohio looked like back 40 years ago, smog, acid rain and Lake Erie called the dead sea. Today these two cities are making a come back. In time they will be great city’s again with high tech, medical economies. No pollution just clean living. What we have to do with china. Educate them. There history is ruthless. Some day I see another revolution there. Those people will get tired of their pollution too. We are light years ahead of them. What we have to watch here is our national debt. We cant live with 20 trillion dollar debt. The man I wished we picked for president compared to the man we have today was Ron Paul. I like is son too.
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let's keep on topic, global warming.
this thread is not about our national debt or about our presidents/elects, past or current.
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We already have a new pipe line in place. Railroads.
Home work assignment...who owns these railroads?
Hint: He's a big donor to a certain political party that is fighting the keystone pipeline.
Is there a conflict there?
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As riverbee said, it's about global warming. If it is turning to politics and politicians, the thread will be closed.
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The question I asked has everything to do with so called global warming.
The whole thread has been political. How come every time I post in one of these the thread gets a warning to be closed?
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I don't know. Is it because every time a mod gives another poster a warning, you continue on with the same thing? That's what it looked like to me on this thread. I didn't check any others to see if they were the same. I also didn't look to see who posted it. I replied strictly due to the body of the post. Also, I have already locked this thread once, then unlocked it after receiving a PM from Lazyshooter, the original starter of the thread. I have gotten too many butt chewings for political posts in the past to keep getting more. It's getting hard to sit down.
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...... How come every time I post in one of these the thread gets a warning to be closed?
Don't take it personally Beeboy, you are in good company as we all zigzag across that dreaded "political' line. This whole subject, as it has been fixed in our minds by the media, is full of 'god' and devil' terms which are quite efficient at polarizing our thinking. I confess to a personality that is equally at home with Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde, and it shows in my posts in this thread. ;)
If I had the skill, I would write something that would assert a feel good solution so we could enjoy our freedoms as we move to the next big issue. If we can simply recognize that our thoughts, opinions and words are often unduly influenced by the slant of the media we frequent, we have made progress on this and other important issues facing us square in the face. :-)
Iddee, I hope you are 'sitting' pretty tonight. ;)
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If I had the skill, I would write something that would assert a feel good solution so we could enjoy our freedoms as we move to the next big issue. If we can simply recognize that our thoughts, opinions and words are often unduly influenced by the slant of the media we frequent, we have made progress on this and other important issues facing us square in the face. :-)
Iddee, I hope you are 'sitting' pretty tonight. ;)
Lee, two things:
# 1 - I do believe that you have the eloquence to tell me to go take a flying head-first leap into the biggest manure pile known to mankind, and I would be smiling, all the while thanking you as I was doing it! ;D
# 2 - Iddee doesn't do "anything" pretty.
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In 1986 I ran a computer bulletin board in Dallas. I was about 27 at the time, and consulting the 16 year old who ran a very successful All American BBS. All American is a forum platform that was limited to a single topic thread. I ran C-Net, with different "rooms" similar to the topic areas in this forum.
We were discussing BBS activity, after all we paid our phone bills (oh yes, all of this was at 300 baud or 1200 baud) and we ran these boards for the fun of it and expected there to be activity on them. I asked him how he kept it so busy. His answer?
"When things go slow I open religion or politics as an acceptable topic. When everyone is ready to murder each other or leave the board, I close the topic".
May I recommend you close this thread. I will never be well with accepting the opposing viewpoint and I will not say why or I will further offend Lazy Shooter, and the matter has nothing to do with Lazy Shooter
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Warren Buffet is the major player of RR oil movement. We still need the pipeline but railroads can handle a lot of oil safely with 4 major class one RR. West of Mississippi, BNSF and SP. East of the river, CSX and NS. Railroads have an excellent safety record of moving hazardous material safely. We will build the pipeline. Who knows where the pipeline will go. I like to see it north on the Canadian boarder away from people. I don’t think we will see it built to Texas. Environmental people will find a way to block it. We don’t want china getting it.
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a snip..
Be a little more clear, Pete. 97% agree on "natural" climate change. A majority do not agree on "man-made" climate change.
tecumseh..
huh.. the worlds glaciers are melting, the ice caps are melting.... so who am I to believe Fox New or my lying eyes?
I would suggest if you first sieve out all the doctors of divinity and then the doctors with various virtual university degrees and then highly discount any 'professor' that describes themselves as 'adjunct' and try, try, try to totally stick to those folks 'professional opinion' that really understand the DATA and the MECHANISMs working in terms of climate that the real number is more like 99% agree that man and the growth in population is dramatically affecting the earth climate although I can 'kind of' understand the data, understanding the complex and often chaotic mechanisms for the worlds climate is way above my pay scale. climate change is real and basically correcting things after everything fall apart is really not an option here. I have had this conversation before with the former head of the NOA (held that cabinet position under Reagan) and although his pay grade was much greater than mine (he was an admiral) and my pay great was a bit less than that (3rd class petty officer) we agreed that man induce climate change is real and the climate deniers will in time change their OPINIONS (opinions which I would suggest are derived from no data and no understanding of mechanism... which is to say largely wishful thinking or the hope that god will intervene right before we shoot ourselves in the head). my wife (very much a phd type) did a paper some 20 years ago looking at the data and the trends and made some suggestions as to where for us here in the US the largest risk would show itself < basically since everything here is run by BIG oil and gas this didn't win here very many friends or well healed allies.
there are some things that will resolves themselves... with the price of oil falling at some $ price canadian tar sands oil will no longer be economically viable. I suspect even now it cannot compete with natural gas either in terms of price or possible supply. and finally here is a tid bit to stick in your hat.... you can tally up all the KNOWN SOURCES of hydacarbons on the planet (I would assume this includes oil sands, coal, petroleum and natural gas) and then extrapolate the carbon emissions / temperature trend line and we can only burn 3/8 of this existing supply without literally burning up the planet < the good news here is once we do the jelly fish in the ocean will thrive quite nicely.
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Thank you Tecumseh. My patience is on a slow boat to a publishing house for some real fun