Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => Beekeeping 101 => Topic started by: riverbee on November 14, 2014, 05:59:45 pm
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lots of questions on how each of us prepare our fondant for winter feeding. there are a number of threads across the forum with recipes in them. if you have a fondant recipe, please post it here and how you make it. and for those who have already posted a recipe, please copy and paste that here.
thanks, and every young beek will thank you!
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Bring sugar, water and syrup to a slow boil while stirring until hardball candy consistency is reached to 255 to 265 degrees. Take the candy off the heat and stir in Mega-bee with a whisk. Pour mixture into a plastic mold and allow to cool. I use an inch and half spacer under my top cover. Take candy out of plastic mold and put candy on top of cluster. If you want to make the candy stronger use more megabee add one extra pound. I buy a 40lb bag. You can buy 5lb bag if you want.
7 lb sugar
1 lb water
1 lb mega-bee
1 teaspoon honey-b- healthy
1 teaspoon amino-b booster
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thanks ray for kick starting this off and sharing your recipe!......
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Hi Ray, what kind of mold are you talking about? maybe a picture?
And, how large is this mixture? in case I want to find my own mold? Like the size of a basketball?
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Jen
I use a 12x9 flat tupperware container about 2 inches deep that looks like this I fill it up half way, take out candy when hard,
http://www.worldkitchen.com/en/snapware-household-storage/1098599.html
I use this shim to put the candy on top of bees. Just candy not container.
http://www.betterbee.com/Products/10-Frame-Hive-Components/10-Frame-Betterbee-Shim.
I use this too.
http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/10-Frm-Wintering-Inner-Cover/productinfo/W671/
this cover goes on top of my spacer rim. The cover is filled with an insulation board. What I like about this board. It has an upper entrance with ventilation. The spacer rim has one too. My bees stay dry all winter.
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Bring sugar, water and syrup to a slow boil while stirring until hardball candy consistency is reached to 255 to 265 degrees.
I only boiled mine to 242 and it's rock solid. Can bees really eat this?
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I think it is supposed to be malleable Led, like clay, or Play Doh. I haven't made any yet, so I don't have any tips for you at this time.
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My fondant is hard too, but they still eat it. They love it :laugh:
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bees taking syrup in 30's, fondant recipe for Jen
I saw that when I went to pull jars the evening after the front hit. I made fondant last night, no pollen sub, no essential oils, just sugar, water and cream of tartar. It was 38 with a wind chill in the upper 20's when I finally got the toddlers down for a nap so I could feed the hives, and 2 of them were still taking syrup. Bad news is I had a migratory cover with screen on hive 1 and it is only one box and I had to actually open it, killed at least 10 bees I'm sure unless they got back in that front door fast enough. But they have fondant under an inner cover and over the opening of the inner cover now, and a styrofoam sheet in their telescoping lid. Didn't bother with styrofoam on the bigger hives. And 3 more plates of fondant on the table. I just make a half batch.
5 lbs of sugar, 1 pint of water. pinch of salt, 1/4 teaspoon cream of tartar.
Bring water to boil with salt, add half sugar, when dissolved add 2nd half, cream of tartar and hang candy thermometer in pan. I use a wooden spatula to stir, and stir until it hits a boil, after it starts boiling stop stirring or it runs over. keep on med high heat til 238 degrees for fudgy, or 250 I think for hardshell. I do 238.
, then remove from heat. IF you were adding pollen sub in January or February this is the point where it would go in. I pour into paper plates, about half an inch thick so its easy to get in on top of frames if I am not using an extra box for some reason. Let cool thoroughly.
The beehive I opened did and didn't appreciate me. They were not clustered, but on the lid, and I smelled banana when I cracked it so I shoved in a small piece of candy and closed it, went and got jacket, smoker and a hive tool and brush. Came back and opened up, they were already on that piece of candy.
Reminds me I don't know what I did with the owens corning pink I took out of that box.... Gotta go back outside before the kids wake up
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Thanks Gypsi, I've been watching a handful of youtubes on fondant, so far yours is the one with salt, curious, why salt?
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I like watching Ken Davis little creek bee ranch youtube, Fat beeman is good too.
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Ive seen where you mix in a little Kyro Syrup or Glucos Syrup.
I dont know if Kyro is good for them and I don't know where to get Glucos syrup. I think this may keep it soft.
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yankee, no corn syrup, or KARO syrup, this will make your bees sick.....
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Not fondant, but here is the recipe I used for candy boards
http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/emergency-feeding/
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i thought so. i am looking for glucose.
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Yankee, what Riverbee said, have read that in many places to stay away from corn syrup, dysentary
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Salt? Because it was in the recipe I got from a local mentor and his bees do well. May work with the cream of tartar
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Okay, I have read and seen on youtube, vinegar or lemonjuice, but no salt. Good to know
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Hit a function key :'( - not sure of quality of this post but......
Has anyone tried making fondant in the oven? or partially in the oven?
I'm pretty lazy and it seem like an easier way.
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This is the one im gonna try making.
Sugar
water
Glucos.
I might add a little lemon juice.
Doing the conversion look like
5 cups sugar
10 oz water
1 Table spoon Glucos
I will mix mine in a large mixer instead of by hand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KyJOM0pejw
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I've seen these youtubes on fondant, I don't have a KitchenAid, or stand mixer. I do have good quality hand mixer. And I've seen on one youtube where a fellow used a drill and paint mixer/stirer thingy for mixing his fondant.
What say you, any C:-)
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've seen on one youtube where a fellow used a drill and paint mixer/stirer thingy for mixing his fondant.
What say you, any C:-)
Make sure you have a heavy duty drill otherwise you will burn it out. Don't ask me how I know :-X
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LOL Thanks Rob and that tells me not to use my hand mixer. I think I'll call around to my friends and see if I can find a KitchenAid standing mixer. I would go and buy one if they didn't cost $300 ~
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you need a mixer? I have 2 and a couple of drills but with 3 hives, I used a wooden spatula.
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Hmmm, interesting. The vids I watch say in order to get the fondant to the silky chewy stage that it needs to be kneeded like bread. I've never made it before so I really don't know.
You bring the water, vinegar, sugar up to about 238 degrees. Take off of burner, let cool to 200, then put in stand mixer with dough paddle and mix slowly until it's silky, kina taffy like. Then pour into molds.
You can also do it by hand like kneading bread dough for about 5 minutes.
I have to be careful with my left shoulder so I don't know if that gonna fly with me. Maybe I can break down the recipe to one mold at a time...
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Knead? Roll out? I have a daughter that does fancy wedding cakes but I am feeding bees. I let cool, somewhat, stir in pollen sub if I'm adding, and pour it on to paper plates and let cool. I think those videos want you to work too hard. Mine is in between fudge and brittle candy, more to the fudge side, but I'm not wrapping it around a wedding cake either.
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Piece of cake.
I added some
Lemongrass oil
Spearmint oil
Tea Tree oil
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs29.postimg.cc%2Fwlf5ox777%2F20141117_181916.jpg&hash=2f08a04bc9b56a42f4bb94e86aeb39a51b34d9eb) (http://postimg.cc/image/wlf5ox777/)
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(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs24.postimg.cc%2Fbpyvp6b9t%2F20141117_194057.jpg&hash=210ae33e17f41ae1e4b0d0c0bc6cef81a2179f5e) (http://postimg.cc/image/bpyvp6b9t/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs24.postimg.cc%2Fe9uij9ytt%2F20141117_194135.jpg&hash=75c4e88ba56c271734cc9d5f4487ce9500d0684b) (http://postimg.cc/image/e9uij9ytt/)
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Yankee- I don't have a standing mixer like that. Looks good! So this fondant of yours looks like it still stays a bit soft so the bees can take bites of it...
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Yes, I don't think you have o have a mixer though. I think the important thing is that by make the fondant it breaks down the sugar from the larger crystals into tiny crystals so that its more like crystallized honey. Easier for the bees to consume.
It was very easy to make.
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What exactly is Glucos?
I have ALWAYS used Karo, the Karo that is marked 0g HFCS in making queen candy to keep it BARELY pliable.. I doubt theres enough of it there to harm the bees, but what exactly IN the Karo would give the bees dysentery?
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It's been awhile since I discussed this high fructose corn syrup debate. I am on the wire about it but still lean towards not using it. Here is a forum on the subject ~ beesource
http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-273538.html
One of the things that has occured to me during my readings on this subject is that... the bee gut is remarkably close to the human gut. It's been proven that corn syrup in products on the grocery shelf cause obesity in humans. Karo is also used to help baby's with constipation. So if it will soften the stool of babies, then it's not going to be good for bee poop.
Corn is wind pollinated, if bees don't go for corn pollen, why put corn products it into their gut.
Now, I'm not a agriculture scientist, and I consider myself an abstract thinker. Soooooo....
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anyone is entitled to feed their bees anything but I prefer NOT to feed mine Roundup via corn or soy, same for me, my dogs and my cats, so I don't buy corn or soy products. I have a pre 2005 bottle of Karo if a baby needs deconstipated.
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"What exactly is Glucos?
I have ALWAYS used Karo, the Karo that is marked 0g HFCS in making queen candy to keep it BARELY pliable.. I doubt theres enough of it there to harm the bees, but what exactly IN the Karo would give the bees dysentery?"
glucose scott, it makes the fondant pliable. that's it. i will be adding another post on making fondant and some other additional info that may be helpful.
about Karo syrup:
Karo syrup: (from Karo's website:)
Q: What is high fructose corn syrup and how is it different from regular corn syrup?
A: High fructose corn syrup starts with regular corn syrup, which is modified by further processing and treated with enzymes to break it into two different forms of sweeteners, fructose and glucose.
In contrast, corn syrup is a sweetener derived from fresh corn picked and processed at its peak for flavor and sweetness. This is the ingredient in Karo® Corn Syrups used for baking – Karo® Light, Karo® Dark and Karo® Lite (reduced calorie).
Q: Why do food manufacturers use high fructose corn syrup?
A: Originally, high fructose corn syrup was developed as a lower cost substitute for sugar. It is widely used today as a sweetener in beverages, bakery products, yogurts, and other products that traditionally had used sugar as a sweetener.
Q: What is the controversy about high fructose corn syrup and why are so many people avoiding it?
A: Since the early 1980's, high fructose corn syrup consumption has tripled and was recently estimated at 30 pounds per person annually. During the same time period, the rate of obesity also increased dramatically. After consumption of high fructose corn syrup hit its highest level between the years of 2000 to 2005, it has more recently declined, yet obesity rates have not. While some researchers feel there is a link between the increase in obesity and high fructose corn syrup consumption, others do not.
Q: Do any of Karo's Corn Syrup products used in baking that are sold in retail stores contain high fructose corn syrup?
A: When Karo was first introduced in 1902, it contained no high fructose corn syrup. Like the original, today Karo® Light, Karo® Dark and Karo® Lite Corn Syrups contain no high fructose corn syrup.
Q: Do other brands of corn syrup currently contain high fructose corn syrup and if so, how can I tell?
A: Karo is currently the only leading national brand of corn syrup that has removed high fructose corn syrup. Many other brands of corn syrup do contain high fructose corn syrup. Check the ingredient list on the package where high fructose corn syrup must be listed if it is in the product. You can also look for Karo's package labels that clearly announce "0 grams High Fructose Corn Syrup."
Q: What is corn syrup?
A:Corn syrup is a mildly sweet, concentrated solution of dextrose and other sugars derived from corn starch. It is naturally sweet. Corn syrup contains between 15% to 20% dextrose (glucose) and a mixture of various other types of sugar.
Q: Is high fructose corn syrup the same as corn syrup?
A:No. high fructose corn syrup and corn syrup are distinctly different products. When Karo was introduced in 1902, it did not contain high fructose corn syrup. Sometime in the 1970's, it was added to the Karo Light and Pancake syrups. As a result of consumer requests, the high fructose corn syrup has now been removed from Karo® Light. Karo® Dark and Karo® Lite (reduced calorie) Corn Syrups never had high fructose corn syrup.
Q:What is refiners' syrup? Why is it used in Karo dark corn syrup?
A: Refiners' syrup is a type of molasses. It gives dark corn syrup its flavor and color.
Q:When was the ingredient "vanilla" added to Karo light corn syrup?
A: Vanilla has always been an ingredient in Karo light corn syrup. It gives extra smoothness and richness to the flavor.
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Thanks Riv, Good Info
"Q:What is refiners' syrup? Why is it used in Karo dark corn syrup?
A: Refiners' syrup is a type of molasses. It gives dark corn syrup its flavor and color.
So definately don't use Karo Dark because of the molasses, even tho is has not HFCS. Isn't molasses bad for bees?
Does this mean that Karo 'Light' is okay to use? Even tho it has vanilla extract in it, albeit not very much?
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jen, i wouldn't use the brand 'karo' syrup. it contains starch, not to mention salt. starch will give bees dysentery. there are many solids that contain sugars that bees can't digest, and also some sugars that contain starch. i am not sure of all the other sugars contained in karo, and not sure how vanilla flavoring may effect them, but given that it contains the starch, i would not use it. some might argue that a small amount used in fondant will not hurt bees. i am not willing to take the risk.
many other sugars are not good for bees, sugar products that have other components such as starches and sugars other than sucrose; yes molasses, brown sugar, powdered sugar that contains starch (okay to dust mites with but not as feed), commercial fondants may contain flavorings and/or colorings or other additives, as perry mentioned, and unrefined sugars.
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I'm glad you confirmed that Riv, I wasn't going to use it anyway. But good into for new beeks. I'll stick with homemade fondant and cane sugar. Your info has made this a good thread THANKS!
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Wow, I just got off the phone with the distributor. I ordered 2 - 50 lb blocks, and the price has dropped since last year, from $64 down to $50 and some cents per box. :)
I was only going to order 1 block, but at that price having some extra for those in my area that might need some, I couldn't resist. ;D
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Perry, who is your distributor?
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Perry, who is your distributor?
http://bmsdistributors.com/
FONDANT ICING REG BRILLANCE 20 KG
(not sold in the 20 kg pail anymore, now in a 50 lb. block, wrapped in plastic in a cardboard box, actually making it easier to handle).
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Around here, the best price I could find is 10 kilos for $45, :o, will keep looking
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This anywhere near you? See if they deliver to any bakeries in your area.
http://www.flanagan.ca/products/index.php?cursor=300&title=Grocery
337314 DAWN FONDANT WHT SELECT BRILLIANCE 1/50LB
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close enough, thanks Perry :)
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So basically its the starch were trying to stay away from? I knew that the starch in powdered sugar had its drawbacks for the bees but did not realize Karo had starch in it? Or is it just derived from starch?
Corn syrup is a food syrup which is made from the starch of maize and contains varying amounts of maltose and higher oligosaccharides, depending on the grade
High-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is a fructose-glucose liquid sweetener alternative to sucrose (common table sugar) first introduced to the food and beverage industry in the 1970s. It is not meaningfully different in composition or metabolism from other fructose-glucose sweeteners like sucrose, honey, and fruit juice concentrates.
Honey is 82% sugar and the rest mostly being water. Of the 82% that is sugar, 43% is glucose and 50% is fructose. HFCS roughly contains 55% fructose and 42% glucose. Both then have small amounts of sucrose and other trace ingredients that complete the chemical makeup. This breakdown shows that honey and high fructose corn syrup both have similar chemical structures and are nutritionally the same.
HFCS-42 = 42% fructose + 58% glucose
HFCS-55 = 55% fructose + 45% glucose
Table sugar = 50% fructose and 50% glucose
HOWEVER;
To make HFCS, you start with corn, then mill it to produce starch -corn starch. Starch, the most important carbohydrate in the human diet, consists of long chains of glucose. To make corn syrup, you mix the corn starch with water and then add an enzyme, produced by a bacterium, that breaks the starch down into shorter chains of glucose.
so.. if KARO AND HFCS are both derived from corn starch, WHY is it OK to feed vast amounts of HFCS and not Karo?
The answer turns out to be that Karo, while BEING Corn syrup is not a combination of Fructos and Glucos;
Both products are made from corn starch, but regular corn syrup (Karo) is 100 percent glucose, while high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) has had some of its glucose converted to fructose enzymatically.
While I do not understand the process of how a bee breaks down sugars, something about the process of converting ALL glucos causes dysentery.. Vanilla will not harm the bees, nor will salt. In fact bees often congregate on my animals salt blocks when they need it.
It is the singular sugar (Glucose) that causes them the problems..
I posted this as I found it when looking it up.. Hoping it helps others to understand it the same way I did...
Scott
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scott, the brand Karo light corn syrup does not contain 100 % glucose; from karos faq on igredients and nutrition:
Karo Syrup FAQ (http://www.karosyrup.com/faq.html)
"Q: What is corn syrup?
A:Corn syrup is a mildly sweet, concentrated solution of dextrose and other sugars derived from corn starch. It is naturally sweet. Corn syrup contains between 15% to 20% dextrose (glucose) and a mixture of various other types of sugar."
you are correct, in karo there is no fructose in it, and no sucrose. not sure what these other 'sugars' are.
salt:
common table salt, i do not know about the salt blocks? perhaps other minerals they are attracted to?
vanilla:
(natural flavoring, pure or extract....if it contains alcohol, it's corn based, and some contain corn syrup, and some contain both.
".......how a bee breaks down sugars........"
you asked!.................. :D
Honey Bee Nutrition and Supplemental Feeding
AGRICULTURE HANDBOOK NUMBER 335
Revised October 1980
Pages 39 – 45
an excerpt:
"Ingestion and Digestion
Food enters the alimentary canal (fig. 1) by way; of the month and passes through the esophagus to the honey stomach. In the honey stomach hydrolyzing enzymes break down the principal sucrose of nectar to the simpler monosaccharides glucose and fructose present in honey. Immediately behind the honey stomach is the proventricular value or honey stopper. It retains the nectar load in the honey stomach, controls passage of food into the midgut or ventriculus, and prevents food substances in the midgut from returning to the honey stomach.
The midgut is a relatively large segment of the alimentary canal, where food is temporarily stored and most digestion occurs. The inner wall of the midgut is lined with a peritrophicm membrane, presumably to protect the cells from damage by the gut contents.
The alimentary canal is completed by a short small intestine and a large intestine or rectum that comprises the hindgut where food digestion is completed. Undigested food residues are reformed into feces in the rectum and eliminated through the terminal anus. Passage of pollen through the alimentary canal of adult bees requires about 2-1/2 hours. Feces of adult bees contain almost intact, empty pollen grain shells.
The complex foods ingested by bees must be broken down (digested) into simpler units before they pass through (absorbed) the gut wall into the hemolymph (blood) for ultimate assimilation and utilization. Digestion depends on the activity of enzymes. Enzymes are present in the secretions of the salivary, postcerebral, and hypopharyngeal glands and in the secretions of the midgut epithelial cells. In addition, digestion may be facilitated by the micro-organisms present in the alimentary canal. Compound sugars must be broken down by enzymes to simple sugars before they can be absorbed and utilized.
Bees apparently do not have the enzymes or micro-organisms needed to digest the complex carbohydrates (cellulose, hemicellulose, and pectin) in the outer wall of pollen grains. Enzymes gain access to food inside punctured pollen grains and also by dissolving the “soft germinal pore areas” with digestive enzymes. Enzymes that digest protein are abundant in the alimentary canal of the adult bee and are furnished almost entirely by the midgut and hypopharyngeal glands. Proteins are first broken down to peptones and polypeptides; and these, in turn, are hydrolyzed to amino acids.
The lipid-splitting enzyme lipase is abundant in the midgut of adult workers and drones. In higher animals, lipids are digested by lipase or esterases into free fatty acids and glycerol. The fatty acids are made water soluble by neutralization with alkalies in the alimentary canal. Some insects produce enzymes that hydrolyze certain phospholipids (that is, ecithin and spingomyelin), but probably digestion of the esters and fatty acids usually results from the activity of bacteria. Certain lipids may be absorbed unchanged also.
Food absorption begins in the upper portion of the large intestine and is completed in the rectum, where water salts and other organic molecules are selectively absorbed. There are two pairs of rectal glands or pads on the sides of the rectum that function in water and possibly fat absorbtion.
Sources and Chemical Composition of the Natural Foods
Nectar
Nectar is the major source of carbohydrate in the natural diet of honey bees. It may contain 5 to 75 percent soluble solids (sugars) although most nectars are in the 25- to 40-percent range. The primary sugars are sucrose, glucose, and fructose. As nectar is manipulated and finally stored as honey, much of the sucrose is inverted to approximately equal parts of glucose and fructose. A normal-sized honey bee colony may use the nectar equivalent of 300 to 500 pounds a year."
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OK.. so what I need to know is... what "other" types of sugar are there besides Fructos and Glucos? If Karo already has both sugars in it then I am at a loss to explain why it would be worse for the bees than HFCS
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Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to feed or (they) die. I try not to over analyze stuff, it gives me a headache. ;D
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agreed perry!
sucrose....table sugar in syrup and feed/fondant, or HFCS..... :)
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By golly I worked my way thru that science hour. I got some of it, need to read it one more time.
I think Riverbee deserves a free tshirt for all of that! ... At Least :D
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......... :D
in simpler terminology (description by Diana Sammataro and Milagra Weiss):
"In order for bees to process and store the carbohydrates (as honey), they first must break down the disaccharides into monosaccharides, because only monosaccharides can pass through the midgut wall into the bee's hemolymph for later use by cells (Crailsheim 1988). Therefore, all the complex sugars bees ingest must be enzymatically transformed in order to become bioavailable to them (Hausmann et al. 2005). Results from sequencing the genome of the honey bee (Honey Bee Genome Sequencing Consortium 2006) have identified genes that encode carbohydrate-metabolizing enzymes. Other researchers have identified proteins from the food and salivary glands related to the metabolism of carbohydrates and energy production (Santos et al. 2005; Fujita et al. 2010). For example, the enzyme invertase converts sucrose into glucose and fructose (White et al. 1963; Simpson et al. 1968; Winston 1987; Kubo et al. 1996; Ohashi et al. 1996, 1997, 1999; Kunieda et al. 2006). Bees not only convert the sugars in the nectar, but add microorganisms and reduce the water content to prevent fermentation. The final product, honey, is stable and normally contains the following proportions: fructose (38.2%), glucose (31.3%), sucrose (1.3%), maltose (7.1%), water (17.2%), other components (3.1%) (White 1980)."
monosaccharides= simple sugar;examples of monosaccharides include glucose (dextrose), fructose (levulose), galactose, xylose and ribose.
scott, on sugars, excerpts from articles i have:
Roy Barker USDA lab~
"Sugars which poison bees when fed at low levels in sucrose syrup include galactose, arabinose, xylose, melibiose, mannose, raffinose, stachyose, and lactose (Barker and Lehner, 1974b; Barker 1976a). Pectin, agar, and many gums are toxic or can hydrolyze to toxic sugars. On the other hand, glucose, fructose, maltose, sucrose, melezitose, and trehalose are safe and nutritious."
Zachary Huang, Michigan State University~
"Adult bees can utilize glucose, fructose, sucrose, trehalose, maltose, and melezitose, but bees are unable to digest rhaminose, xylose, arabinose, galactose, mannose, lactose, raffinose, melibiose or stachyose. Most of these sugars are also toxic to honey bees. About 40% of sugars found in soybeans are toxic to bees, and therefore care should be taken when using soybeans as a pollen substitute. "
okay enough of the science saturday lesson............... :D
someone asked earlier about baking fondant in the oven, i have this recipe for a no cook that was sent to me by another beek, i have never tried it but he says it works great:
NO-COOK SUGAR FONDANT
5 pounds granulated sugar
7.5 ounces water
Stir water into sugar thoroughly. Pack moistened sugar into molds such as a loaf pan, pie pan or cookie sheet and allow to dry, at least overnight. Remove from the mold and place candy directly on top of frames over winter cluster of bees using a feeding rim, shim or additional super around candy.
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I have not yet received a reply about WHAT other sugars means exactly.. I have a hard time thinking that they are using any sugars derived from something other than starches, IE; potatoe, corn etc..
Corn syrup is maltose.
maltobiose or malt sugar, is a disaccharide formed from two units of glucose
In order to make HFCS one of those units is converted to fructose, so that there is a specific percentage of each..
If Karo is adding other sugars that contain fructose then what would be the difference between HFCS and Karo corn syrup? A simple matter of percentage of added fructose? Perhaps this is why they are not answering my EMail as to what exactly those other sugars are, because KARO is NOT corn syrup?
But that still leaves me with the question.. WHY would corn syrup not be safe for bees? From Mrs. Rivers Post;
Adult bees can utilize glucose, fructose, sucrose, trehalose, maltose, and melezitose,
Yes.. I could let it go, but I really want to learn the whys. When someone tells me NOT to use Karo, and all the indications are that it (if it is corn syrup) SHOULD be as acceptable as any other sugar I'd like to understand the reasons.. I just feel it leaves a Hole in my knowledge to take the naysayers at their word, when they cant provide any evidence to support their statements.
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Scott, I have an Inquiring mind as well, it's how we get to the bottom line. That's what I'm searching for is the best food or supplement that we can give the bees safely.
This thread is crazy good information about feeding bees. Thanks River and Scott for the science aspect of feeding bees :) ;)
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Riv or anyone else
NO-COOK SUGAR FONDANT
5 pounds granulated sugar
7.5 ounces water
Stir water into sugar thoroughly. Pack moistened sugar into molds such as a loaf pan, pie pan or cookie sheet and allow to dry, at least overnight. Remove from the mold and place candy directly on top of frames over winter cluster of bees using a feeding rim, shim or additional super around candy.
So what's the purpose of the cream of tarter in other recipes?
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Riverbee, I love your new avatar.
Ken
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Kebee, you should move to Fair Grove, Mo., you would love it here, our little town is full of Fat Cats drinking beer. Jack :laugh: :laugh:
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yep, that's me a fat cat......... :D
"So what's the purpose of the cream of tarter in other recipes?"
jen, fondant for bees really is nothing more than human candy fondant. beekeepers in the 18th century discovered they could feed bees with it. really, all the minimal additives are not necessary, and the recipes have remained the same. the cream of tartar just makes the fondant 'smoother'
not as 'grainy', and helps with crystallization and pliability. it's an acidic reaction with the sugar. bees can digest sucrose just fine without the additives. your fondant might not look as pretty, but the bees don't care. ;D
ps ken, thanks, just having some fun!
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Any chemists available? Well then here my thought.
The cream of tartar is an acid, that along with the high heat, breaks down the sucrose into fructose and glucose.
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ray, you don't need to be a chemist to figure out what cream of tartar does to fondant, just ask anyone who makes candy, or just google it...... ;)
high heat? we need to be careful with over boiling any sugar/sucrose to be fed to bees, whether it is fondant or syrup, and syrup does not need any boiling, you WILL make your bees sick.
ray what you are talking about is 'inversion' of the sugar.....adding an acidic element to the sugar, yes, does break sucrose down into fructose and glucose ie; cream of tartar, lemon juice, or even corn syrup. inversion only prevents crystallization, and helps in the smoothness of the texture of the fondant.....nothing else.
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oops, forgot to mention, inversion of sugar syrup, any additive to fondant. not necessary. bees do this all on their own, converting sucrose to fructose and glucose......
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Ray- "Bring sugar, water and syrup to a slow boil while stirring until hardball candy consistency is reached to 255 to 265 degrees. Take the candy off the heat and stir in Mega-bee with a whisk. Pour mixture into a plastic mold and allow to cool. I use an inch and half spacer under my top cover. Take candy out of plastic mold and put candy on top of cluster. If you want to make the candy stronger use more megabee add one extra pound. I buy a 40lb bag. You can buy 5lb bag if you want.
7 lb sugar 1 lb water 1 lb mega-bee 1 teaspoon honey-b- healthy 1 teaspoon amino-b booster
Ray :) How many 12-9 individual fondants does this make?
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Googled and googled and......
per Wikipedia
Honey's natural sugars are dehydrated, which prevents fermentation, with added enzymes to modify and transform their chemical composition and pH. Invertases and digestive acids hydrolyze sucrose to give the monosaccharides glucose and fructose.
Invertase is an enzyme that catalyzes the hydrolysis (breakdown) of sucrose (table sugar).
Hydrolysis (/haɪˈdrɒlɨsɪs/; from Greek hydro-, meaning "water", and lysis, meaning "separation") usually means the cleavage of chemical bonds by the addition of water. Where a carbohydrate is broken into its component sugar molecules by hydrolysis (e.g. sucrose being broken down into glucose and fructose), this is termed saccharification. Generally, hydrolysis or saccharification is a step in the degradation of a substance.
Inverted or invert sugar syrup is a mixture of glucose and fructose; it is obtained by splitting sucrose into these two components. Compared with its precursor, sucrose, inverted sugar is sweeter and its products tend to retain moisture and are less prone to crystallization.
Physical chemistry[edit] (fondant)
Poured fondant is formed by supersaturating water with sucrose. More than twice as much sugar will dissolve in water at the boiling point as will at room temperature. After the sucrose is dissolved, if the solution is left to cool undisturbed, the sugar will remain dissolved in a supersaturated solution until nucleation occurs. While the solution is supersaturated, if a seed crystal (undissolved sucrose) falls into the mix, or if the solution is agitated, the dissolved sucrose crystallizes to form large, crunchy crystals (which is how rock candy is made). However, if the solution is allowed to cool undisturbed, and then stirred vigorously, it forms many tiny crystals, resulting in a smooth textured fondant.
http://www.compoundchem.com/2014/10/21/chemistryofcandy/
By contrast, in the case of non-crystalline candies, such as lollipops and toffee, we actively want to prevent crystal formation. This can be accomplished in a number of ways. Chemically, ‘interfering agents’ can be added to the sugar solution in order to prevent crystallisation – common additions include other sugars such as glucose and fructose, which, having molecules of a different size and shape, get in the way of the sucrose molecules and stop crystals forming. Other chemicals, particularly acids, can be added to break up the sucrose into glucose and fructose, which also prevents crystallisation.
http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Biological_Chemistry/Carbohydrates/Disaccharides/Sucrose
Invert Sugar
When sucrose is hydrolyzed it forms a 1:1 mixture of glucose and fructose. This mixture is the main ingredient in honey. It is called invert sugar because the angle of the specific rotation of the plain polarized light changes from a positive to a negative value due to the presence of the optical isomers of the mixture of glucose and fructose sugars.
Read more: http://chestofbooks.com/food/science/Experimental-Cookery/Effect-Of-Acid-Upon-Sugars-And-Hydrolysis-Of-Sugars.html#.VHz0HZRdUrM#ixzz3Kgrcjs9v
Effect Of Acid Upon Sugars And Hydrolysis Of Sugars
Strong concentrated acids decompose all the sugars producing humus or caramel substances. The weak acids, malic and citric in fruits, lactic in sour milk, acetic acid, and salts with an acid reaction like cream of tartar, affect, the sugars in different degrees, depending on the particular acid used, the strength of the acid, whether it is heated, and the length of time of heating.
And this is why I was hoping for a Chemist O:-)
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LOL Yep, definately need a chemist
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(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs30.postimg.cc%2Fds4sf2tzh%2F2d294e594d27c74642c9c5f1d399ece7.jpg&hash=cc40ee0d2736d24a5ba6508f36f722af2d94ab90) (http://postimg.cc/image/ds4sf2tzh/)
Seriously Ray... I am not going to read all of that... :no: ???
But don't take that personally!! :D
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This is the recipe I like to use.
5 lb bag of sugar
2-1/2 cups water
1 teaspoon white vinegar
(Doubled recipe makes about 6 each 9" plates 1/2" deep)
Procedure:
1. Pour all ingredients into sauce pan and bring to boil stirring constantly
2. Cover and boil 5 minutes
3. Insert candy thermometer and boil until temperature reaches 234°
4. Remove from heat and allow cool to 215°
5. Add 1 tbl spoon Honey Bee Healthy or Pro Health
6. Add .5 lbs of Bee Pro
7. Whip with electric mixer for 3 minutes
8. Pour into molds and allow to cool undisturbed
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Before I go and read all four pages of this thread... Did we come to a conclusion on whether pure glucose is okay to put into fondant?
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The stuff I buy has only 3 ingredients, water, sugar, and glucose, that's it. It works well for me.
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Cool! and where do I buy this stuff? grocery store? pharmacy?
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I wouldn’t use glucose. Use raw honey. About half cup should do it. Keep it simple. You wont need much for 3 hives. I piece of fondant should last you about a month. Thickness of my fondant is about half inch. I use 4 side cookie sheets to mold it. If I cant use it all put it in the freezer wrapped with wax paper. Magabee is the best pollen substitute you can buy. Those other pollen subs have soy in them. That why they are cheaper.
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My pollen sub is spent brewer's yeast. Free or very cheap. None better for the money.
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"Before I go and read all four pages of this thread... Did we come to a conclusion on whether pure glucose is okay to put into fondant?"
jen, liquid glucose is just fine for fondant, like perry said. the bakers fondant,has 3 ingredients: sugar, water and glucose. (this is not corn syrup).
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My pollen sub is spent brewer's yeast. Free or very cheap. None better for the money.
I goggle it, this stuff not cheap. I like to buy bulk 50lb bag. Seem to be a good product to make patties or feed it dry.
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I bought 2000 lb. for 100 dollars. That's cheap to me.
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Yes that’s cheep. :o 90 dollars for 50lb bag . :-[ Megabee is still my sub :)
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Go to a local brewery. I said "spent" brewer's yeast. Entirely different then what you priced.
As much difference as fresh hay and hay after it is sent through the horse.
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Ok, I’m going to check for a local brewery in my area. I hope they have 50lb bags. do you feed your sub dry.
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We are in fondant recipes thread, Ray. To discuss pollen sub, we need to start a new thread. You start it and I'll follow suit.
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Sorry to jump out of line but I have enough information. :)
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"I have enough information."
ray, share your information and pollen sub recipe to help others, my suggestion is as iddee's, start a thread on it? many keeps will be looking for this help in the coming months! others will join in!
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Go to a local brewery. I said "spent" brewer's yeast. Entirely different then what you priced.
As much difference as fresh hay and hay after it is sent through the horse.
This made my evening! ;D ;D ;D
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Ray- "ray, share your information and pollen sub recipe to help others, my suggestion is as iddee's, start a thread on it? many keeps will be looking for this help in the coming months! others will join in!
Yup! Like Me :D
I do want to use a pollen sub of some sort early spring. But for now I want to make my own fondant with glucose. Where do I buy a bottle of glucose like the pic Yankee showed on this thread?
But now I want to talk about this idea of making fondant with honey as Ray suggested. Intriguing! Should I start a new thread for this subject?
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Where does one buy a bottle of glucose? grocery store? I don't recall seeing it in a grocery store?
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might check with your local grocer (it would be in the baking section), natural food/health food store, vitamin store, michaels craft store, maybe wally M., costco, sams club, etc.........you can also buy it online.
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Thanks Riv :)
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you are welcome jen...... :)
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This is the recipe I use from the bee club I belong with. Complete instructions. I add megabee and Amino B Booster to make it better.
http://www.hungrybearfarms.com/index.php/honeybee-health
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Thanks for the link Ray. Curious name for a bee business, "Hungry Bear Farms". ;D
Sorta like tempting the gods isn't it?
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thank you ray!
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Thanks for the link Ray. Curious name for a bee business, "Hungry Bear Farms". ;D
Sorta like tempting the gods isn't it?
Good people to deal with. I think they own a small family farm too.
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Hobby Lobby has Glucose.
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made 4 of these today, i have one hive that might be a little short:
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs17.postimg.cc%2Fg2dzz1pez%2FBees_Microwave_Sugar_Candy_001.jpg&hash=d3402d16fde40142715cfc04cd5687cd4d2827e9) (http://postimg.cc/image/g2dzz1pez/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs17.postimg.cc%2Ffzu4c7lrf%2FBees_Microwave_Sugar_Candy_007.jpg&hash=1054e36f81856fd0381937421cf77cd772ebbd4a) (http://postimg.cc/image/fzu4c7lrf/)
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs17.postimg.cc%2Fweo1os3qj%2FBees_Microwave_Sugar_Candy_006.jpg&hash=5c61c473b9b56685a2d655a6db346882983469cb) (http://postimg.cc/image/weo1os3qj/)
recipe another beek gave me, thought i'd try, this isn't for anyone who has a lot of hives to add fondant/sugar candy to. temp was below 230 F at the final stage, sugar was bubbling not boiling. i used weber grill pans for the 'mold's ' to pour into. also, pour quickly and do not use a rubber spatula to scoop remainder out of the pyrex (use a metal spoon).......... :D
these set up, harden quickly, pop out easily and no waiting for the sugar to dry out or dry using the oven. i did 4 in less than an hour. each square 'brick' made about 1 1/2 cups of sugar candy and weighed one pound. i used square weber grill pans, when i popped them out i laid them on wax paper, and then placed in a ziploc. will check the one hive tomorrow, and place on whatever is needed and freeze the rest, add as needed and/or make more.
MICROWAVE SUGAR CANDY
Spray mold with cooking spray (lightly, like pam, depending on mold being used, probably not necessary)
Stir 3/8-cup water into 2 cups sugar
Microwave at full power for 2 minutes
Stir and microwave another 4 minutes
Let sit 3 minutes
Pour into mold and let harden
Unmold and place candy on the top bars of the hive
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This is the recipe I use from the bee club I belong with. Complete instructions. I add megabee and Amino B Booster to make it better.
http://www.hungrybearfarms.com/index.php/honeybee-health
Thanks for the link, Ray. Does anyone know how long Honey B Healthy lasts? I have an open bottle that's about 5 years old.
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good question bakers, i have a couple 16 oz open bottles i have stored in ziploc bags in cool dry areas. to be honest i have used this stuff with many hives and so frequently that i run out, but now have used open bottles that are probably 3 or 4 years old. they still smell as strong and pungent as the day purchased? there is no shelf life or expiration date on the bottle.
lol, i sent an email to ask this very question on the 'contact us' on the honeybhealthy.com website............the email bounced! there are phone numbers to call..........
Toll Free: 866-542-0879
Local: 703-880-6670
Fax: 703-880-5115
sales@honeybhealthy.com > this email bounced!
now that the email bounced i am going to try the phone numbers!
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received a reply from a robert noel of honey b healthy by email, even though the email i sent came back 'message undeliverable'................
here is what he said about the shelf life:
"In response to your inquiry for expiration times of our products they all have a three year shelf-life. Our experience with Honey-B-Healthy productions (approx. 5+ years old) indicates that the shelf life can exceed 5 years if properly stored. Keep tightly sealed and out of the sun and heat when not in use. Shake well before using. The formula has shown to be exceedingly stable. Keeping in a refrigerator is an excellent way to store the product by keeping it fresh."
good info, and good to know, i'll throw mine in the fridge now!
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Thanks riverbee! I'll throw mine in the trash and get some more.
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Thanks for this info, I was kinda wondering as well...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Here's a link to a recipe from a popular beesource beekeeper. She uses apple cider vinegar to moisten the sugar. I used this recipe to make bricks and fondant. Scroll down to read why to use vinegar instead of water. My bees love this stuff. I also use Lauri's recipe for pollen sub. A main ingredient in the sub is also vinegar. My bee's devour the pollen sub and have done well on it. I make bricks and fondant yesterday for the first time. I distributed it yesterday. When finished I went back to the first hive a gave a paper plate of fondant and the bees were all over it.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290641-My-recipe-method-for-sugar-blocks&highlight=Lauri%27s+sugar+bricks
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I have read that ash is the substance to avoid when feeding honey bees. When you put wood, honey or unprocessed sugars to a flame, the material that remains after being consumed by fire is ash. In the human diet, we call it fiber. For bees, this fiber causes dysentery, which is especially bad during the winter when they can't leave the hive. Unprocessed sugars, like brown sugar, have enough fiber to cause dysentery and should be avoided.
The two things about HFCS are: 1) If it gets too warm, (usually in transport to commercial beekeepers in an 18 wheeler) certain chemicals form that will harm honey bees, and 2) It may compromise immune system of the bee making it vulnerable to pesticides and pathogens and contribute to colony losses (read about that here (http://www.pnas.org/content/110/22/8842.abstract)).
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This is my favorite recipe from Ray 4850. I like it because I use my bees' honey in it. And the bees gobbled it up
Ray4850 Posted "This is the recipe I use from the bee club I belong with. Complete instructions. I add megabee and Amino B Booster to make it better."
http://www.hungrybearfarms.com/index.php/honeybee-health
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Here is the recipe I use.
Fondant Bee Candy
This is great for emergency feed in the winter
This recipe is our choice for making a good fondant candy for the bees. We have chosen not to use corn syrup because of GMO and of all the hybridization that the corn plant has gone through. It has been proven not to be beneficial for the bees. Cream of Tarter is excluded for the same reason because it is not beneficial to the bees.
1. Use 1 part water to 4 parts sugar. 1 cup of sugar weighs 8 ounces.
2. Add 1/4 tsp. vinegar per pound of sugar.
The vinegar helps to break down the sugar as it cooks and will be evaporated.
3. Bring to a boil, stirring constantly until boiling begins.
If you try to make the candy without stirring it will yield a transparent gel that will be extremely sticky.
4. Boil covered for 3 minutes without stirring.
5. Boil until mixture reaches 234F. Do not go over this temperature since this will cause the mixture to caramelize and will be harmful to the bees.
6. Remove from heat and allow to cool to 200F. This will cause the candy to have an increased thickness.
7. Whip with a whisk until whiteness occurs.
8. Quickly pour onto waxed paper having a towel beneath. Be sure that the towel is not fluffy since it will depress the cake’s width. This method will make a nice cake.
9. Allow to cool undisturbed.
10. Remove waxed paper and store each cake in a plastic bag in the refrigerator.
The cakes can be handled as plates, but may be a little fudgy. They will be completely white with whiter areas inside. Tiny crystals will shine from a broken edge. Place fondant directly over the brood cluster so the bees can have access to it.
Or you can pour it into the deep side of an innercover and let it set up making a candy board.
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My fondant is hard too, but they still eat it. They love it :laugh:
While the bees are clustered they give off a warm moist heat which will soften the fondant above the cluster. They can then feed on it.